NHL Anti-Thread: Bad Business Decision Aggregator

[Sodboy13]

Houston has an NHL-caliber arena, but no local major sports ownership has expressed serious interest in bringing NHL hockey to town.

Hartford doesn't have a suitable arena (smaller than Winnipeg's and 30 years older), nor does it have anyone with the necessary funding interested in any form of sports ownership in the market. All it has is a minor-league-caliber owner trying to ride a wave of nostalgia for all it's worth.

[The_Admiral]

Another flaw in this argument is that a team in Markham cuts into the Leafs' bottom line much more than a team in Hamilton would, and we've already decided that Hamilton is cutting it too close. At least with Hamilton, you could make an argument that the team would represent the nebulous "Southern Ontario" region comprising Hamilton, Burlington, Kitchener, Waterloo, Cambridge, Brantford, St. Cats, etc., rather than the GTA. Now, of course a Hamilton team would market itself to various points east (with what success, I don't know), but at least there's some sort of argument that it's not reasonable for the Leafs to claim everything as far west as London. Markham would be right in their backyard, and represent a much clearer threat to the bottom line.

Also, the argument that Rogers and Bell would love to have another team competing with their team because they'd own the broadcast rights is flawed as well, because even in Canada, unless something has changed and nobody has told me, the NHL is a gate-driven league. You don't want people spending their money elsewhere.

[Mac the Knife]

Houston has an NHL-caliber arena, but no local major sports ownership has expressed serious interest in bringing NHL hockey to town.

Hartford doesn't have a suitable arena (smaller than Winnipeg's and 30 years older), nor does it have anyone with the necessary funding interested in any form of sports ownership in the market. All it has is a minor-league-caliber owner trying to ride a wave of nostalgia for all it's worth.

Houston did have an ownership group interested at one time, and I'm sure that if the NHL showed any inclination at all, those who backed the Houston Aeros would find a way.

Hartford's issues, as well as Hamilton's and Seattle's, are territorial... Hartford would cut into either the Bruins or Rangers territory (or both), Hamilton cuts into Toronto's (though with new ownership in place that hurdle could be less high than it was), and Seattle would cut into Vancouver's territorial rights (which may or may not be an insurmountable hurdle, as no one's broached the subject).

Quebec is by far the most viable option right now. Hamilton would be second if not for the territorial issue. But I could see a number of cities getting the NHL before Hartford got it back.

[IceCap]

I'm with admiral. I don't see how new ownership makes the Leafs' territorial rights less of an issue when it comes to a team in Hamilton or the GTA. Regardless of who owns it, MLSE's not going to give up a monopoly on one of the most hockey crazed regions in the world if they don't have to.

From what Seattle-based members have said, the Canucks have little to no presence in the city, and it seems like the NHL wants to be there. The problem with Seattle is that if they do get an arena it'll be to get a NBA team back, first and foremost. A NHL team would only be along for the ride, which isn't ideal. You don't want to go into a market already conceding first place to the other fall/winter league.

[The_Admiral]

I don't think the Canucks have the rights to Seattle. They sort of squat on the American Pacific Northwest by airing a limited slate of Canucks games on one of the RSNs, but I'm not sure it's a full-fledged claim of the region, nor does the region fully claim the Canucks. I don't think the NHL is that worried about playing second fiddle to the Newpersonics, though. They probably figure they can carve out their niche either way. I mean, the league let a team move to Raleigh conceding fourth place to Wake Forest basketball.

I feel pretty safe in saying there will never be another team anywhere in Ontario, and that's okay. It's way, way, way too late to double up on a mega-market.

[Brian in Boston]

Houston has an NHL-caliber arena, but no local major sports ownership has expressed serious interest in bringing NHL hockey to town.

Not in the past five years... no. That said, according to Rockets owner Leslie Alexander, he was still kicking the tires on acquiring an NHL franchise for Houston as recently as 2005.

Following the implementation of a new NHL CBA, Alexander made it known that he was bullish on bringing a major-pro ice hockey team to Houston. In fact, he told the Houston Chronicle:

"I am trying to get a team. I am trying. I went to see the commissioner. I told him about my interest. I can't disclose teams, but I've been talking to people (in the NHL) and to investment bankers. I had conversations a month ago with an investment banking firm. I'm looking to buy a team. So people know my interest. You hear from time to time that teams might be for sale, then it changes or something else happens. But my interest is out there."

"I'm trying to do it. I would like it, obviously. Now there's an opportunity to probably break even and hope in the future that you could make money on it. I sort of know (the economics with a new CBA). There's no revelations that would change them."

There was also Alexander's 1997 deal with Peter Pocklington to purchase the Edmonton Oilers for $85 million (USD) and relocate the team to Houston. The Alberta Treasury Branches stepped-in and placed the franchise in receivership. Alexander made the same $85 million (USD) to the ATB, going so far as submitting a $5 million (USD) deposit. Only the 11th-hour deal put together by the Cal Nichols-led Edmonton Investors Group kept the team in Edmonton.

Hartford doesn't have a suitable arena (smaller than Winnipeg's and 30 years older), nor does it have anyone with the necessary funding interested in any form of sports ownership in the market. All it has is a minor-league-caliber owner trying to ride a wave of nostalgia for all it's worth.

Bingo.

[RedSox44]

NHL expansion city's in order:

Quebec

Quebec

Quebec

Quebec

Quebec

Quebec

Fixed. Nobody is clammoring for hockey in Houston or Kansas City and Hartford has the fanbase but no arena and a minor league owner, like has been previously said "trying to ride the nostalgia wave".

Seattle is a maybe. But only after Quebec City.

[Lee.]

I don't think the Canucks have the rights to Seattle. They sort of squat on the American Pacific Northwest by airing a limited slate of Canucks games on one of the RSNs, but I'm not sure it's a full-fledged claim of the region, nor does the region fully claim the Canucks.

As far as I can tell, the Canucks' reach goes about as far south as Mount Vernon, which is also about as far south as most Vancouverites go on weekends to outlet shop. Once you start getting into actual Seattle suburbs, there might be a lot of Canucks merch for sale or at least up in the windows, but they're still pandering to the tourists.

[The_Admiral]

I've heard Alexander has lost a great deal of his fortune since then and is much less interested in buying a hockey team.

[OMMF]

I don't think the Canucks have the rights to Seattle. They sort of squat on the American Pacific Northwest by airing a limited slate of Canucks games on one of the RSNs, but I'm not sure it's a full-fledged claim of the region, nor does the region fully claim the Canucks.

As far as I can tell, the Canucks' reach goes about as far south as Mount Vernon, which is also about as far south as most Vancouverites go on weekends to outlet shop. Once you start getting into actual Seattle suburbs, there might be a lot of Canucks merch for sale or at least up in the windows, but they're still pandering to the tourists.

While a lot of Seattlites would be considered fair-weather Canucks fans (see: crowded sports bars around town last Cup final), there are multiple people I personally know of here that have season tickets for the Canucks and the team also gets a great bit of exposure by having 1/2 of their schedule televised on the local Comcast SportsNet and CBC.

[mattwswfc]

The question is does Houston really want, or need for that matter, an NHL team...? the answer is most probably no, they may be a select number of Houstonians that enjoy hockey, but not enough to support one. I think Houston is doing fine with its respective teams and there is no point forcing something if there is no demand for it.

No matter how big Texas is, I think 1 hockey team is quite enough... you don't want the disaster like Florida where the state has 2 teams when 1 would be quite sufficient.

Anyway we could argue this until the cows come home, but the fact of the matter is that Quebec City is miles ahead of any other location in North America, in terms of being ready for a team soon, and unless something pops up in another location, it will remain that way for the foreseeable future.

FYI I don't mean Florida is a disaster in general, just from a sports point of view... don't want to go upsetting any Southerners like I did in the MLS thread

Edited December 13, 2011 by mattwswfc

[Sodboy13]

No city needs a hockey team, or any pro sports franchise, for that matter. It is simply a question of want. Houstonians have liked their Aeros enough to keep the team going relatively strong for 18 seasons, but there is a gaping gulf between minor-league sustainability and major-league success. For now, the money doesn't appear to be there.

[ninersdd]

Out of curiosity, have old Nordique fans became other teams' fans(Montreal, Toronto, etc), or have they just been waiting for their Nords to return?

[wildwing64]

The question is does Houston really want, or need for that matter, an NHL team...? the answer is most probably no, they may be a select number of Houstonians that enjoy hockey, but not enough to support one. I think Houston is doing fine with its respective teams and there is no point forcing something if there is no demand for it.

For an AHL team, the Houston Aeros seem to be doing OK. They're averaging over 6,000 fans in an NHL sized arena, which again by AHL standards is OK. An NHL Aeros team could work: while there's evidently some interest in hockey, it could simply be that there's not as much interest in a minor league. But who knows.

No matter how big Texas is, I think 1 hockey team is quite enough... you don't want the disaster like Florida where the state has 2 teams when 1 would be quite sufficient.

Except the two teams are serving completely different markets. The NHL has a Northern Florida team and a Southern Florida team because they want to take advantage of both markets. Same with California (with two LA area teams taking advantage of a high population) and same with New York (with - technically speaking - three teams for the New York metro area, again taking advantage of a high populous).

Look at it this way: if Sheffield Wednesday were the lone English representative in an all-European football league with a similar organisation to the NHL, would fans from all over England flock to see them? Probably not. So this hypothetical league would want a team to represent the South of England as well.

[RedSox44]

Out of curiosity, have old Nordique fans became other teams' fans(Montreal, Toronto, etc), or have they just been waiting for their Nords to return?

I think that some of them have become fans of the Bruins, because they're not the Habs or Leafs, but I'm fairly certain it's a small portion of the Nordique-fan-populace. I think most Nordique fans are simply waiting for their team to return.

[The_Admiral]

I don't think Houston is the hockey goldmine some people make it out to be. Yeah, it's big, but it's also very poor, very black, and very Hispanic. To be brutally frank, these are not the NHL's target markets. I mean, obviously there are people in Houston and its surrounding areas who are demographically aligned with the league, and it's certainly not as if poor, black, and/or Hispanic people cannot or are not allowed to like hockey, but it's just not going to be a slam dunk there, that's all.

[Mac the Knife]

MLSE's not going to give up a monopoly on one of the most hockey crazed regions in the world if they don't have to.

Or unless it makes financial sense to do so. If someone comes in and says I'll pay $100 million as a "territory infringement fee," they'd come to the realization that they can cover almost 10% of the price they paid for the club just by allowing Hamilton to have a franchise... at virtually no risk to them. That's a deal that gets made in a heartbeat under those conditions.

I don't think the NHL is that worried about playing second fiddle to the Newpersonics, though. They probably figure they can carve out their niche either way. I mean, the league let a team move to Raleigh conceding fourth place to Wake Forest basketball.

WTF are you talking about?

[DaytonBlue]

I'm surprised there hasn't been a little more talk for Kansas City, if only because when the Sprint Center opened the city was clamoring for an anchor tenant. I read in one article that the building wasn't doing too bad, but I would still think an anchor tenant is key. A Blues/Scouts rivalry would be fun.

IMHO, Houston would only have a shot if Les Alexander decided to go for a team again. But I haven't heard anything except the quotes above, which go back to 2005.

Seattle: no consideration until they get a new arena...Key Arena not even good temporarily because of basketball only sightlines.

I have to think the Coyotes situation will be settled one way or another after this season. Glendale can't keep subsidizing losses and the NHL can't keep owning the team...and for this reason I believe they are going to Quebec City. But then again everyone thought they were going back to WPG at this time last year.

[The_Admiral]

I don't think the NHL is that worried about playing second fiddle to the Newpersonics, though. They probably figure they can carve out their niche either way. I mean, the league let a team move to Raleigh conceding fourth place to Wake Forest basketball.

WTF are you talking about?

The fact that pretty much every ACC basketball program is more established and followed than the Hurricanes? Or that they're the secondary tenant to NC State, who aren't even the most popular team in the region? That they didn't even have dedicated television and radio deals to begin their tenure because everyone had pre-existing commitments to various ACC pbp?

[Mac the Knife]

I don't think Houston is the hockey goldmine some people make it out to be. Yeah, it's big, but it's also very poor, very black, and very Hispanic. To be brutally frank, these are not the NHL's target markets. I mean, obviously there are people in Houston and its surrounding areas who are demographically aligned with the league, and it's certainly not as if poor, black, and/or Hispanic people cannot or are not allowed to like hockey, but it's just not going to be a slam dunk there, that's all.

Um...

Raleigh, North Carolina 2010 census data:

Population - 403,892.

57.5% White

29.3% Black

11.3% Hispanic

4.3% Asian

4.5% Other

Raleigh has similar demographics, is one-fifth the size of Houston, has a population that wasn't well-versed in hockey prior to the NHL's arrival but had a popular local minor-league team (the ECHL IceCaps), and the team today draws close to 15,000 fans every home date for a team that sucks wind.

Houston, Texas 2010 census data:

Population - 2,099,451.

49.3% White

25.3% Black

5.3% Asian

16.5% Other

37% Hispanic (or multi-racial)

The demographics are rather similar. The population is staggering by comparison. If I had to pick whether to put a franchise in Raleigh or Houston... I'dve picked Houston.