NHL Anti-Thread: Bad Business Decision Aggregator

[Mac the Knife]

I don't think the NHL is that worried about playing second fiddle to the Newpersonics, though. They probably figure they can carve out their niche either way. I mean, the league let a team move to Raleigh conceding fourth place to Wake Forest basketball.

WTF are you talking about?

The fact that pretty much every ACC basketball program is more established and followed than the Hurricanes? Or that they're the secondary tenant to NC State, who aren't even the most popular team in the region? That they didn't even have dedicated television and radio deals to begin their tenure because everyone had pre-existing commitments to various ACC pbp?

As someone who's called Raleigh home for the past (wow, that long?) 18 years now, let me point out a few things...

(1) Wake Forest University isn't anywhere near here. It's in Winston-Salem, not the Raleigh area.

(2) More established and followed? Well, yeah, when another team has a head start of, say, 90 years or so, they're bound to have a solid following. But there's a reason the Whalers came to Raleigh - they're the only pro game in town, and that has a cache that the colleges simply don't have.

(3) The Hurricanes are the secondary tenant in the building because North Carolina State University was going to build the damned place anyway, with or without them. They took advantage of that, and have thus far been quite happy in doing so.

(4) So let me get this straight... radio and television stations are supposed to violate/terminate existing contractual agreements so that they could vie for the privilege of airing NHL games? Puh-leeze. You could move the New York Yankees to Sheboygan and that's not going to happen.

[The_Admiral]

I know where Wake Forest is. That was kinda my point. It wouldn't have been quite as effective if I just picked the school down the street!

I'm not buying that being a professional team really has that much cache in the land of college basketball diehards, who profess that they love college basketball precisely because it's not professional. I know the Hurricanes have enough of a niche in the market to get by, but nobody asked for them and nobody else wants them around, so it's fun to make fun of them, their irrelevance, and their utterly death-inducing, personality-devoid, directionless brand of hockey.

[Mac the Knife]

I know where Wake Forest is. That was kinda my point. It wouldn't have been quite as effective if I just picked the school down the street!

I'm not buying that being a professional team really has that much cache in the land of college basketball diehards, who profess that they love college basketball precisely because it's not professional. I know the Hurricanes have enough of a niche in the market to get by, but nobody asked for them and nobody else wants them around.

Yeah? I'm glad you're such an authority on the city I live in.

[The_Admiral]

Okay. The Carolina Hurricanes are God's gift to hockey, Raleigh, and the world. They are widely considered by many [^source?] to be the Montreal Canadiens of the Raleigh-Durham/Piedmont Triad corridor.

[IceCap]

I'm surprised there hasn't been a little more talk for Kansas City, if only because when the Sprint Center opened the city was clamoring for an anchor tenant. I read in one article that the building wasn't doing too bad, but I would still think an anchor tenant is key. A Blues/Scouts rivalry would be fun.

It would be, and the Blues having success (well until their recent ownership/revenue problems) made me think Kansas City would work. Sadly, however, the populous has proven me wrong. The Islanders and Kings couldn't manage more then half the Sprint Centre during an exhibition game, and the Islanders are a team that's always in the relocation discussion.

I have to think the Coyotes situation will be settled one way or another after this season. Glendale can't keep subsidizing losses and the NHL can't keep owning the team...and for this reason I believe they are going to Quebec City. But then again everyone thought they were going back to WPG at this time last year.

I wouldn't be shocked if Bettman tosses another team with ownership problems to Quebec City while he waits it out in Glendale via taxpayer subsidy for two more years.

[Mac the Knife]

Okay. The Carolina Hurricanes are God's gift to hockey, Raleigh, and the world. They are widely considered by many [^source?] to be the Montreal Canadiens of the Raleigh-Durham/Piedmont Triad corridor.

LMAO. That, sir, is some funny stuff.

Seriously though, you're speaking of a market you don't really know as well as you think you do, making generalities that have been demonstrated incorrect. That could be true of Houston as well, so it might not be such a good idea to paint it with the same brush is all I'm saying.

[The_Admiral]

I wouldn't be shocked if Bettman tosses another team with ownership problems to Quebec City while he waits it out in Glendale via taxpayer subsidy for two more years.

AW MAN NOT AGAIN YOU GUYS

[IceCap]

Houston's a bad idea for a few reasons.

Even if they're owned by the same guy who owns the Rockets they're still competing with the Rockets for fans, money, ratings, and corporate dollars. The Rockets have had forty years to establish themselves. It's going to be difficult for a niche sport (which hockey would be in Houston) to overcome that. The Atlanta Spirit Group/Thrashers to Winnipeg situation proved that the "basketball group that uses hockey as a date filler in southern markets" strategy isn't as solid as once thought.

Secondly, it's just to much of a risk. The NHL played the "will it/won't it work?" game with non-traditional markets. When it works you get a team that's able to carve out a small but stable niche. When it doesn't you have $1 beer & hotdog night and give away fee snuggies while trying to buy a parking lot from yourself.

If any team in a failed southern market is looking to move the smart thing to do is take the guaranteed money in Quebec City. You don't go to Houston which has the potential to fail all over again.

[OMMF]

So 6,000 for an AHL game means a city should be on the short list of places to go but a Coyotes-like 9800 in Kansas City for an exhibition game means salting the earth there? Oh, also ignore that the place was sold out for the most recent game there and was sold out ahead of the event.

(Not meant to anyone specifically. There just seems to be a lot of awful logic in this entire thread.)

[IceCap]

So 6,000 for an AHL game means a city should be on the short list of places to go but a Coyotes-like 9800 in Kansas City for an exhibition game means salting the earth there? Oh, also ignore that the place was sold out for the most recent game there and was sold out ahead of the event.

I think both Kansas City and Houston are terrible ideas, for what it's worth.

(Not meant to anyone specifically. There just seems to be a lot of awful logic in this entire thread.)

Someone's still advocating that the Coyotes stay in Glendale?

[Sodboy13]

So 6,000 for an AHL game means a city should be on the short list of places to go but a Coyotes-like 9800 in Kansas City for an exhibition game means salting the earth there? Oh, also ignore that the place was sold out for the most recent game there and was sold out ahead of the event.

(Not meant to anyone specifically. There just seems to be a lot of awful logic in this entire thread.)

Taking two different things said by two different people and making them into one argument tends to yield awful logic. Kansas City isn't off the list because of a one-off lackluster exhibition; it's off the list because no one has wanted to pay to put a team there since Boots Del Biaggio, which means that no one has wanted to pay to put a team there, ever. And AEG is reportedly filling arena dates for Sprint Center without much problem despite the closest thing to an anchor tenant being the (baaaahahaha) Command of the Arena League.

Does anyone familiar with the area know if the Arena District in Kansas City has stopped sucking yet? I thought I heard things around there were kinda dire.

[OMMF]

So 6,000 for an AHL game means a city should be on the short list of places to go but a Coyotes-like 9800 in Kansas City for an exhibition game means salting the earth there? Oh, also ignore that the place was sold out for the most recent game there and was sold out ahead of the event.

(Not meant to anyone specifically. There just seems to be a lot of awful logic in this entire thread.)

Taking two different things said by two different people and making them into one argument tends to yield awful logic.

Kind of like the whole thread, no? There's nothing, really nothing, that can predict what a city is going to be like when it gets a franchise. Seattle sold out the Kingdome for soccer in the 70's, then had less than 5,000 people a game at Qwest Field before being the number 1 team in MLS in attendance. One of the largest cities in the world, Los Angeles, does not even have a franchise in it's country's most popular sport. You can cite minor-league attendance, neutral city tv ratings or histories of previous incarnations but none of it is predictive.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

So 6,000 for an AHL game means a city should be on the short list of places to go but a Coyotes-like 9800 in Kansas City for an exhibition game means salting the earth there? Oh, also ignore that the place was sold out for the most recent game there and was sold out ahead of the event.

(Not meant to anyone specifically. There just seems to be a lot of awful logic in this entire thread.)

Taking two different things said by two different people and making them into one argument tends to yield awful logic.

Kind of like the whole thread, no? There's nothing, really nothing, that can predict what a city is going to be like when it gets a franchise. Seattle sold out the Kingdome for soccer in the 70's, then had less than 5,000 people a game at Qwest Field before being the number 1 team in MLS in attendance. One of the largest cities in the world, Los Angeles, does not even have a franchise in it's country's most popular sport. You can cite minor-league attendance, neutral city tv ratings or histories of previous incarnations but none of it is predictive.

But MLS soccer in Seattle was the perfect nexus of hipster tribal identification, consumerism, and faux-European styling that appeals perfectly to this region. What innate qualities does NHL hockey have to appeal to Houston? At the risk of impugning another of America's second-tier cities, but there's no football or baby-back ribs in hockey, so what's the point?

[DaytonBlue]

I will also add the Seattle Sounders FC success may have also been IN PART because of the Sonics move, kind of a "screw you David and Clay, we support pro sports".

[maifang]

no

Edited December 14, 2011 by Lee.
spam

[maifang]

removed

Edited December 14, 2011 by Lee.
spam

[dfwabel]

The $1.00 beers are 10z Bud Lights and you can only get two at a time, but yeah. It's basically all that you said.

These promotions are great for the people that actually go to the games. Had I not had a prior family commitment, I would have been at that game. (Defensive, team, "Scrappy Bunch^TM" systems aside) two division leaders, Saturday night, $1 everything night, I definitely would have gone. Especially being assured a great seat no matter how cheap I bought

It really is just so pathetic.

I was talking with somebody the other day, and they brought up an interesting idea. What if the Coyotes were able to organize a deal to play some of their games downtown at US Airways Arena (sightline issues aside)? Try and prove that it's an actual "location issue" over a lack of hockey enthusiasm. It probably couldn't be worked out or actually work. If anything it'd give Bettman another crutch to lean on if it did work., but I wonder how that could work out.

Slightly Bigger Questions: Leaving any potential Canadian city out of the discussion, what is the real value for a city/county/state to build a new venue at the current NHL/NBA minimum capacities? Why does "state of the art" mean now? 17,000+ seats with the same experience for each seat, as if we are all getting the same car. If the experience is not worthy of a person's dollar, a new venue is not going to help when you are still in the upper deck of a cavernous venue.

Inventory for all ticket events is up, so as a whole, tickets are going unsold to most everything, including pro sports. The increased technology for broadcasts impacts the live gate, more so in the NHL than in any pro sport other than NASCAR. In October, Ticketmaster CEO Nathan Hubbard talked about how the current fan experience is broken and how teams or entertainers price is out of whack and teams are not working well enough to cater the experience to those who will spend the money and cities don't work along side with them to maximize the money spent per event/artist. It is more enjoyable to see the NFL at home since you can keep track of your fantasy team(s) since the facilities don't have bandwidth or allow tablets. Times are changing from what they were even when PIT agreed with the State to build the Consol Energy Center.

[Gothamite]

I will also add the Seattle Sounders FC success may have also been IN PART because of the Sonics move, kind of a "screw you David and Clay, we support pro sports".

Maybe for some, but all the soccer fans I know in Seattle were soccer fans before MLS came to town. And I doubt that resentment could have sustained an interest in the sport even as long as it took for them to field a team.

MLS is staggeringly successful in cities like Seattle and Portland because the league put teams in markets already hungry for the sport. They could have played the "find the biggest TV market" game, but saw the folly there.

Build on the markets you already have one foot in, even if they're not the largest. For that, MLS has been rewarded with devoted fanbases and a tremendous energy behind the growing sport. I don't doubt that it has also resulted in increased revenues through ticket sales, merchandise in the like. Ask them if they'd trade that for apathy in the largest geographic footprint possible.

[Burkell007]

removed, and don't quote it.-Lee

any my ranking for expansion, was based on arena first and fan base as well....

Edited December 14, 2011 by Lee.
spam

[IceCap]

I wouldn't be shocked if Bettman tosses another team with ownership problems to Quebec City while he waits it out in Glendale via taxpayer subsidy for two more years.

AW MAN NOT AGAIN YOU GUYS

I eagerly await Nordiques nation descending on the Jobberdome.