Stadium/Arena Saga Omnibus

[Gothamite]

The Expansion Committee should never have let MLB be bullied into placing a team in Tampa Bay. 

[SFGiants58]

Just now, Gothamite said:

The Expansion Committee should never have let MLB be bullied into placing a team in Tampa Bay. 

 

Ideally, the '93 and '98 expansions would've been this: 

 

-'93: Washington and Denver

-'98: Miami and Phoenix

 

Heck, even Miami has me doubtful. Granted, the possible expansion teams for the 1993 expansion were:

 

-Orlando

-Buffalo

-DC

-Vancouver

-Phoenix

-Nashville

-America's Team: "AMERICA’S TEAM: Florida businessman Joel Glazer, 23, applied for a franchise that would play 20 home games in each of four cities—choosing from Tampa Bay, South Florida, Denver, Buffalo and Washington, D.C. 'This is an idea for the 1990s,' Glazer told the Denver Post. 'It’s the future of baseball'" (Andelman, 2015, p. 198).

-South Florida/Miami

-Denver

-the two Tampa Bay groups

 

Of those, the only non-chosen expansion groups (and DC) that'd be viable would be Nashville and maybe Vancouver. Heck, a Nashville expansion in 1998 might have had positive results down the line (provided it had a good location and not subpar ownership). 

[Sport]

17 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

The very large, very valid reason is that the Rays are the third most popular MLB team in their own market.  Even when they're winning.

But certainly playing in a warehouse in a tough location doesn’t help that, no? I’m not dismissing that the problem is a combination of factors. I mean, it’s not like Yankees and Red Sox fans are filling the stadium when those teams come to town either. 

 

17 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

That's not the stadium's fault.  It's the expansion committee's.

It’s both. And I don’t think the market has ever been given a truly fair test. 

[SFGiants58]

Just now, Sport said:

It’s both. And I don’t think the market has ever been given a truly fair test. 

 

Hard agree there. A decade of being blue-balled by a bunch of MLB teams, saddling the market with an awful stadium, and giving the potential fanbase shaky trust of the game as a whole made it so Tampa Bay MLB baseball never had a fair chance. It genuinely sucks, as I want Tampa Bay baseball to succeed. It has never been in a position to succeed, not since the first rumblings of bringing a team to the region and the political dickery that both Tampa and St. Pete took part in for those early years.

 

Again, Stadium for Rent by Bob Andelman is a must-read for anybody even remotely interested in the situation. It's so good.

[infrared41]

1 hour ago, LMU said:

Especially when you consider that the Yankees' spring training/low-A stadium is in a better location in the Tampa Bay market than the Trop.

 

Everything is in a better location than Tropicana Sam's Club. Awful stadium, awful location. Honestly, I'm surprised it's worked as well as it has and that ain't saying much. That being said, as I've stated numerous times on these here boards and elsewhere (like the official podcast of CCSLC)  baseball will never work in Florida. You can build all the stadiums you want wherever you want, but it won't matter.  The only thing dumber than putting a team in Florida was putting two teams in Florida.

[Gothamite]

2 hours ago, Sport said:

I don’t think the market has ever been given a truly fair test. 

 

Before 2008 and 2009, I would absolutely have agreed with you.

[PrimalCookie]

6 hours ago, Sport said:

I don't know why everyone keeps searching for other reasons when this very large, very valid reason explains the entirety of the problem. 

Because they start with the predetermined conclusion that baseball in Tampa Bay (or Florida as a whole) is inherently doomed to fail and then work backwards from there.

[SFGiants58]

10 minutes ago, Magic Dynasty said:

Because they start with the predetermined conclusion that baseball in Tampa Bay (or Florida as a whole) is inherently doomed to fail and then work backwards from there.

 

Oh, far from it. I want Tampa Bay baseball to work, but I just see the political decisions of the Tampa/St. Pete government and the building of the Trop as factors that doomed the region to a terrible stadium in a terrible location. That's why I keep mentioning that book, because it explains so much of the political chicanery that made this situation so awful.

 

I still think there is potential in the market, but the way things have played out have created a Jacksonville NFL/Atlanta NHL-level mistake. A good owner and a good stadium could turn this around, in fact I hope they do. A better owner committed to the region and committed to privately-funding/"covert subsidizing" a new stadium in a better location would be of great help. But there's one big reason that I'm skeptical: the Marlins.

 

We saw what happened with the Marlins and how their clownery cost Miami tax money and produced almost nothing in return. The Marlins still don't draw fans and are still a punching bag for the rest of the league. Miami's situation should disincentivize Tampa Bay Area residents from ever voting on stadium measures, because they could get suckered into paying billions for a terrible team to stink up a new joint for little benefit to the local economy. 

 

I wouldn't say doomed to fail, but rather stumbling at every step since the start and making the market look bad. I want the Rays to prove me wrong, but so far, they're doing a terrible job. Maybe if fans had showed up for the 2008 pennant run, things would be looking different. That 2008 run should've been the launching point for a new stadium campaign, for which Stu and his partners could likely afford to contribute over 70% of the money. But, they stumbled there and now the Rays are in the full-blown dumps.

[sky1324]

This may seem like I'm trying to kick the market while it's down, given that I stand to benefit from the Rays moving, but I truly do wish that Tampa Bay had worked out. I just think that the well has been thoroughly poisoned for baseball in Florida, through the Marlins' firesale clownery and Tampa Bay's concrete disaster.  My ideal solution would be moving (or contracting!) the Marlins, moving the Rays organization to Miami, and possibly having them play several home series throughout the year in Tampa Bay.

 

I'm one of those people that somewhat believes in "if you build it, they will come", but it's been 20 years, and people still won't come. Maybe a new stadium fixes those issues, maybe it won't. Do the Rays and their jerk owner have enough political pull to make a new stadium happen in Tampa? I personally doubt it. If the Rays had started with a better stadium or were in a better place after the '08 run then you could certainly say that they're worth keeping, but their abysmal lease at the Trop, brought on by political ridiculousness by both the MLB and St. Pete's officials have kind of ruined it for Tampa Bay.

[GDAWG]

Las Vegas is getting a team in the National Lacrosse League.

 

And I bet their ears perked up when they heard that there was no provision in the contract of the sale of the Minnesota Timberwolves that prevents them from moving.  Vegas is thinking "forget an NBA expansion team, can we get the Timberwolves?  We want the A's and we may try to convince A-Rod to move the Wolves to our great city!  Also MLS, can we have a team too?"

[neo_prankster]

20 minutes ago, GDAWG said:

Las Vegas is getting a team in the National Lacrosse League.

 

And I bet their ears perked up when they heard that there was no provision in the contract of the sale of the Minnesota Timberwolves that prevents them from moving.  Vegas is thinking "forget an NBA expansion team, can we get the Timberwolves?  We want the A's and we may try to convince A-Rod to move the Wolves to our great city!  Also MLS, can we have a team too?"

There's gotta be a way to keep the T-Wolves in Minnesota.

[Sport]

13 hours ago, Gothamite said:

 

Before 2008 and 2009, I would absolutely have agreed with you.

 

where’d they play their games those seasons?

[SFGiants58]

22 minutes ago, Sport said:

 

where’d they play their games those seasons?

People went to f—king Candlescheisse when the Giants were contenders. You know, another horrible stadium. People also pack the Oakland Mausoleum during the playoffs (the tarp even comes off sometimes).

[Sport]

4 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

People went to f—king Candlescheisse when the Giants were contenders. You know, another horrible stadium. People also pack the Oakland Mausoleum during the playoffs (the tarp even comes off sometimes).

Both stadiums more accessible for the fanbase’s population center, better public transit than Tampa, but also both franchises threatened to move because of those poor stadium situations. The Giants eventually got theirs and have not struggled at the gate since. The A’s don’t pack them in in the regular season. If anything they’re analogous to what the Rays are dealing with.

 

Again, nothing about the Rays stadium situation has changed. Their TV ratings suggest people are watching and given that they’re not selling 100,000 tickets for Yankees and Red Sox series that leads me to believe that the ballpark is the problem. I just don’t understand the quickness to dismiss this enormous factor. 

[SFGiants58]

The terrible stadium is one of multiple factors. It’s probably the biggest one, but it’s not the only one. That’s all I’m trying to say. 

[JayMac]

6 hours ago, GDAWG said:

Las Vegas is getting a team in the National Lacrosse League.

 

And I bet their ears perked up when they heard that there was no provision in the contract of the sale of the Minnesota Timberwolves that prevents them from moving.  Vegas is thinking "forget an NBA expansion team, can we get the Timberwolves?  We want the A's and we may try to convince A-Rod to move the Wolves to our great city!  Also MLS, can we have a team too?"

Las Vegas is going to go from forbidden land to having a franchise in each of the Big 4 leagues, MLS, and NLL (and probably more) in less than 10 years.

 

Unbelievable.

[BBTV]

1 hour ago, Sport said:

Both stadiums more accessible for the fanbase’s population center, better public transit than Tampa, but also both franchises threatened to move because of those poor stadium situations. The Giants eventually got theirs and have not struggled at the gate since. The A’s don’t pack them in in the regular season. If anything they’re analogous to what the Rays are dealing with.

 

Again, nothing about the Rays stadium situation has changed. Their TV ratings suggest people are watching and given that they’re not selling 100,000 tickets for Yankees and Red Sox series that leads me to believe that the ballpark is the problem. I just don’t understand the quickness to dismiss this enormous factor. 

 

When a team is in the actual world series and nobody locally comes, that's not the ballpark's fault.  Even given all of it's legit faults, it's still the world series.  For a lot of sports fans, attending a WS is a once-in-a-lifetime event, but they didn't care.

[DG_YouKnowWhatThatMeans]

7 hours ago, neo_prankster said:

There's gotta be a way to keep the T-Wolves in Minnesota.

 

Go back in time and draft Steph instead of Jonny Flynn.

[Sport]

  

 

1 hour ago, SFGiants58 said:

The terrible stadium is one of multiple factors. It’s probably the biggest one, but it’s not the only one. That’s all I’m trying to say. 

 

I've always said it's a combination of factors! But for some reason people want to wholly dismiss the stadium as one of them such as:

 

12 minutes ago, BBTV said:

When a team is in the actual world series and nobody locally comes, that's not the ballpark's fault. Even given all of it's legit faults, it's still the world series.  For a lot of sports fans, attending a WS is a once-in-a-lifetime event, but they didn't care.

 

The idea that nobody went to that World Series or their playoff games is a bit disingenuous and overblown. You act like they only got 10,000 people at those World Series games and that's just untrue. I think people aren't fully grasping the difficulty of getting to and fro that place, especially weeknights, especially when you live on the other side of town where most of the population lives

 

I live 6 miles from Great American Ballpark as the crow flies and I've passed on free tickets just because I didn't feel like dealing with the minor hassles of going to a game that night. If you put our stadium in, let's say, Hebron, Kentucky, plus it's a crappy dome, I'd go maybe once or twice a year. Why's this difficult? 

[DG_YouKnowWhatThatMeans]

The entirety of the greater Tampa/St. Petersburg area is hostile to efficient movement of people. It's dominant highway culture built around free parking for everyone for miles.

 

That's tough for baseball but, like much of Florida, the market reaps what it sows.

 

I've been to the Trop. It's a dump, yeah, but not so bad once you're inside. You can buy beer and Dippin Dots same as any other stadium, plus it's temperature controlled contrast into the general swampass climate outside.