XFL 2023: Third Time's the Charm!

[Sec19Row53]

2 hours ago, tBBP said:

Sidebar: we're five weeks into the 2023 season, and so far, with no signs of slowing down...think it miiiiight be a good time to change the thread title

You trying to jinx it? 

[McCall]

3 hours ago, MJWalker45 said:

San Antonio had just over 13,000 on Sunday. An original start time of 9 PM, and families either coming back from spring break, or heading out on spring break didn't help. But it made getting through the food lines much easier than the opener. One thing that bugs me is that when it comes to merchandise, we still don't have mini-helemts, regular helmets, or jerseys available. The Brahmas being 1-4 and probably being 2-4 at best the next time they return to the dome probably won't help. The paper bag brigades are already forming as well. Hahahahaha!!! I'll still keep showing up though. 

Yeah they've had some really weird scheduling. That late on a Sunday night does not work for this type of league. The NFL's Sunday night game is usually 7pm Central, but even bad teams are gonna draw decently because it's the NFL. If the Battlehawks at started at that time, they'd draw pretty well, maybe even over 20k, but low by comparison to their other games because of the time and day and the level of football. Couple all this with those Thursday night games in Seattle and they need to figure out something better. Maybe an occasional Friday night game, and then some combinations of 1:00pm and 6:00pm starts between Saturday and Sunday.

[tigers]

8 hours ago, MJWalker45 said:

San Antonio had just over 13,000 on Sunday. An original start time of 9 PM, and families either coming back from spring break, or heading out on spring break didn't help. But it made getting through the food lines much easier than the opener. One thing that bugs me is that when it comes to merchandise, we still don't have mini-helemts, regular helmets, or jerseys available. The Brahmas being 1-4 and probably being 2-4 at best the next time they return to the dome probably won't help. The paper bag brigades are already forming as well. Hahahahaha!!! I'll still keep showing up though. 

 

I'm not trying to say that St Louis seems to be only one of two who have got their act together just more shocked people aren't banging on about how great a job they have done the passed two incarnations.

 

I'd really like to see at least two of the Texas teams do well and since SA has no Big football there it would be them and one of the others. They are maybe hesitant to have to much merch left over if they get moved?

 

Vegas seems to be a let down and with them getting the Raiders not so long ago maybe they are out of luck with a fan base, and Orlando has missed the bus on just about everything but i hope they get to the second season.

[McCall]

2 hours ago, tigers said:

 

I'm not trying to say that St Louis seems to be only one of two who have got their act together just more shocked people aren't banging on about how great a job they have done the passed two incarnations.

 

I'd really like to see at least two of the Texas teams do well and since SA has no Big football there it would be them and one of the others. They are maybe hesitant to have to much merch left over if they get moved?

 

Vegas seems to be a let down and with them getting the Raiders not so long ago maybe they are out of luck with a fan base, and Orlando has missed the bus on just about everything but i hope they get to the second season.

San Antonio is fine. They have a losing record coupled with a poorly-scheduled Sunday night game made for a decrease in attendance. That same game/result on a Saturday or even Sunday afternoon, and they'd have drawn a bigger crowd. Orlando has been a bit of a disappointment after the Apollos were such a big draw in the AAF. Again, though, a poor team could be the driving factor. Could it also be the stadium? The Apollos played at then-Spectrum Stadium on UCF's campus. Is it just a better attraction than Camping World Stadium? Someone more familiar with the area may know.

[IceCap]

21 hours ago, tBBP said:

Sidebar: we're five weeks into the 2023 season, and so far, with no signs of slowing down...think it miiiiight be a good time to change the thread title

Done! 

[MJWalker45]

12 hours ago, McCall said:

San Antonio is fine. They have a losing record coupled with a poorly-scheduled Sunday night game made for a decrease in attendance. That same game/result on a Saturday or even Sunday afternoon, and they'd have drawn a bigger crowd. Orlando has been a bit of a disappointment after the Apollos were such a big draw in the AAF. Again, though, a poor team could be the driving factor. Could it also be the stadium? The Apollos played at then-Spectrum Stadium on UCF's campus. Is it just a better attraction than Camping World Stadium? Someone more familiar with the area may know.

I'd say that stadium is the bigger issue. Play night games or sit the fans in the shade. I'd have gone with UCF instead because I think it's just the right size for the spring league fans. 

15 hours ago, tigers said:

I'd really like to see at least two of the Texas teams do well and since SA has no Big football there it would be them and one of the others. They are maybe hesitant to have to much merch left over if they get moved?

Houston is the big surprise to me, because the Roughnecks were well supported in 2020. And it's not like the Texans have been the greatest in between those years. I guess I can understand some of the issues with merchandise, especially since teh AAF has so much of it floating around on eBay even today. But I think if they had around 200 full size Riddell helmets, they'd have sold out by the end of the season if not the first two home games. They've got a waitlist for whenever jerseys finally get released, but that still hasn't happened yet. So maybe there are issues at the factory that haven't allowed them to get to the minimums they want before sending them out. 

[Red Comet]

To the surprise of no one, the XFL has its lowest ratings of the year going up against the NCAA Tournament

[McCall]

31 minutes ago, MJWalker45 said:

I'd say that stadium is the bigger issue. Play night games or sit the fans in the shade. I'd have gone with UCF instead because I think it's just the right size for the spring league fans. 

I read that there were some issues with whether or not they received payment from the AAF, so I don't know if they were reluctant to allow them to play there or not. I would assume if it's the stadium more likely to attract fans, they'd at least look into it. But Camping World Stadium also has no primary tennant, so that probably made it easier to use.

[IceCap]

The Orlando Apollos drew really well. Source: me, having gone to a few Apollos home games.

 

The problems with the Guardians are...

 

The team sucks. The Apollos were the class of the AAF and that got people who were on the fence excited. The Guardians meanwhile are near the bottom of the league. Probably the most significant point. If everything else stays the same but the Guardians start winning the attendance will improve. 

 

The stadium. UCF's stadium was perfect for spring football. The Apollos averaged around 20,000 per game and mostly filled it up. Camping World Stadium, meanwhile, is much larger. Meaning that even if they can get up to Apollos levels it'll still be a less intimate experience. 

I get that UCF maybe doesn't want to deal with spring football after the AAF disaster but hopefully they come around if the XFL proves itself to be financially stable over the next few years. 

 

Charlie Brown's had the football pulled away one too many times. Orlando has traditionally been one of the better markets for alternative football leagues. The Orlando Renegades had a strong enough showing fan-wise that they would have stuck around if the original USFL had survived. The Orlando Thunder did well for themselves in the WLAF. The Rage were one of the better attended XFL 1.0. The Florida Tuskers did about as well as any team could in the UFL. And the Apollos had a pretty good fanbase in the AAF. But look at that. Look at all of that failure. It could be that Orlando is simply sick of investing in teams and leagues that won't be there within a year. It's possible that they're waiting for the XFL 3.0 to prove it has some staying power. 

 

Branding. Probably not a huge thing and it's easy to overcome if other stuff is fixed but "Orlando Apollos" was a great name. Apollo, Greek god of the sun. Florida. Sunshine state. Apollo is associated with archery. Lots of dynamic imagery. It was a great identity that felt like it fit. 

"Guardians" is a name the XFL 2.0 picked for NYC and it fits there, and the XFL 3.0 recycled for Orlando to maximize on its already-owned IP. 

Again, not a huge thing, but people aren't stupid. And spring football fans are already a niche crowd who are likely to be more aware of this stuff than not, and the Guardians branding may make it seem like it's not "really" Orlando's team. 

 

[GDAWG]

Speaking of XFL Stadiums, a lot of people in the DFW Metroplex were quite surprised that Choctaw Stadium was going to be kept around even after the Rangers moved next door to the warehouse looking Globe Life Field.   Choctaw isn't going away anytime soon and that stadium is basically "we will hold sporting events in Arlington for teams that don't want to pay a massive fee to Jerry Jones."  Other than the Renegades, they host Arlington ISD football, the Dallas Jackals of Major League Rugby and North Texas SC of MLS Next Pro.  The stadium in the fall hosts Arlington ISD Football but also games between Texas based FCS schools.  It would seem unlikely that they would host games between FBS G5 schools based in Texas, because of the presences of SMU and North Texas nearby.

[McCall]

6 minutes ago, IceCap said:

The Orlando Apollos drew really well. Source: me, having gone to a few Apollos home games.

 

The problems with the Guardians are...

 

The team sucks. The Apollos were the class of the AAF and that got people who were on the fence excited. The Guardians meanwhile are near the bottom of the league. Probably the most significant point. If everything else stays the same but the Guardians start winning the attendance will improve. 

 

The stadium. UCF's stadium was perfect for spring football. The Apollos averaged around 20,000 per game and mostly filled it up. Camping World Stadium, meanwhile, is much larger. Meaning that even if they can get up to Apollos levels it'll still be a less intimate experience. 

I get that UCF maybe doesn't want to deal with spring football after the AAF disaster but hopefully they come around if the XFL proves itself to be financially stable over the next few years. 

 

Charlie Brown's had the football pulled away one too many times. Orlando has traditionally been one of the better markets for alternative football leagues. The Orlando Renegades had a strong enough showing fan-wise that they would have stuck around if the original USFL had survived. The Orlando Thunder did well for themselves in the WLAF. The Rage were one of the better attended XFL 1.0. The Florida Tuskers did about as well as any team could in the UFL. And the Apollos had a pretty good fanbase in the AAF. But look at that. Look at all of that failure. It could be that Orlando is simply sick of investing in teams and leagues that won't be there within a year. It's possible that they're waiting for the XFL 3.0 to prove it has some staying power. 

 

Branding. Probably not a huge thing and it's easy to overcome if other stuff is fixed but "Orlando Apollos" was a great name. Apollo, Greek god of the sun. Florida. Sunshine state. Apollo is associated with archery. Lots of dynamic imagery. It was a great identity that felt like it fit. 

"Guardians" is a name the XFL 2.0 picked for NYC and it fits there, and the XFL 3.0 recycled for Orlando to maximize on its already-owned IP. 

Again, not a huge thing, but people aren't stupid. And spring football fans are already a niche crowd who are likely to be more aware of this stuff than not, and the Guardians branding may make it seem like it's not "really" Orlando's team. 

 

Honestly, in a way, the Apollos existing in the AAF may have hurt them. It precluded them from being in XFL2020, which was their initial intent instead of Tampa Bay. The AAF, as it turned out, was poorly operated and subsequently cancelled.

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

25 minutes ago, IceCap said:

Branding. Probably not a huge thing and it's easy to overcome if other stuff is fixed but "Orlando Apollos" was a great name. Apollo, Greek god of the sun. Florida. Sunshine state. Apollo is associated with archery. Lots of dynamic imagery. It was a great identity that felt like it fit. 

 

"Guardians" is a name the XFL 2.0 picked for NYC and it fits there, and the XFL 3.0 recycled for Orlando to maximize on its already-owned IP. 

 

While I will agree with almost all of your points, including the point that Apollos was a great name, I have to quibble with the notion that the name Guardians had a particular fit for New York.  The name doesn't really fit in one city more than any other. 

 

Cleveland found a way to contrive a connection to the Guardians name with its bridge statues; and New York did likewise with the New York Public Library lions. But, really, the name Guardians is as generic as Tigers, and could equally well be used for a team in any city.

 

Still, it's curious why the league, in moving both the New York and Tampa Bay teams, didn't elect to keep the Vipers' name (and green colour scheme) in Florida and, to use the Guardians' name (and that team's black and red colour scheme) in Las Vegas.  Surely the attraction of the alliteration "Vegas Vipers" couldn't have been so irresistable; there must have been some other reason.

[McCall]

46 minutes ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

Still, it's curious why the league, in moving both the New York and Tampa Bay teams, didn't elect to keep the Vipers' name (and green colour scheme) in Florida and, to use the Guardians' name (and that team's black and red colour scheme) in Las Vegas.  Surely the attraction of the alliteration "Vegas Vipers" couldn't have been so irresistable; there must have been some other reason.

More than likely it was. Vipers works for both, Guardians for neither, so they went with whichever version of Vipers, Vegas or Orlando, they preferred. Thus, the Vegas Vipers sounded best out of all four naming combinations.

 

I'm guessing they essentially listed all four names and picked out the best and gave Guardians to the other one:

Vegas Vipers

Orlando Vipers

Orlando Guardians

(Las) Vegas Guardians

 

In all honestly, with the subsequent logo change, Wildcats probably would've been a better fit for Orlando than Guardians.

[Burmy]

2 hours ago, GDAWG said:

Speaking of XFL Stadiums, a lot of people in the DFW Metroplex were quite surprised that Choctaw Stadium was going to be kept around even after the Rangers moved next door to the warehouse looking Globe Life Field.   Choctaw isn't going away anytime soon and that stadium is basically "we will hold sporting events in Arlington for teams that don't want to pay a massive fee to Jerry Jones."  Other than the Renegades, they host Arlington ISD football, the Dallas Jackals of Major League Rugby and North Texas SC of MLS Next Pro.  The stadium in the fall hosts Arlington ISD Football but also games between Texas based FCS schools.  It would seem unlikely that they would host games between FBS G5 schools based in Texas, because of the presences of SMU and North Texas nearby.

As I've said before, if UTA ever wants to revive their football program to play in FCS, then Choctaw would look like a good option for at least the first several seasons until they ever decide to build an on-campus stadium.

[IceCap]

3 hours ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

While I will agree with almost all of your points, including the point that Apollos was a great name, I have to quibble with the notion that the name Guardians had a particular fit for New York.  The name doesn't really fit in one city more than any other. 

The name was meant to recall the gargoyle architecture of NYC. A flimsy connection, but one made clearer with a strong logo package. But they used the name and an almost identical logo package for the Orlando version. 

 

3 hours ago, McCall said:

Honestly, in a way, the Apollos existing in the AAF may have hurt them. It precluded them from being in XFL2020, which was their initial intent instead of Tampa Bay. The AAF, as it turned out, was poorly operated and subsequently cancelled.

I don't think it matters honestly. While some team names (mostly) in the same cities carried over it's not like these are continuations of those teams. The XFL 3.0 started from scratch more or less and the three years off was basically a reset for fans too. I don't think the XFL 2.0 being in Orlando instead of Tampa helps the XFL 3.0's Guardians any. 

[tigers]

9 hours ago, MJWalker45 said:

I'd say that stadium is the bigger issue. Play night games or sit the fans in the shade. I'd have gone with UCF instead because I think it's just the right size for the spring league fans. 

Houston is the big surprise to me, because the Roughnecks were well supported in 2020. And it's not like the Texans have been the greatest in between those years. I guess I can understand some of the issues with merchandise, especially since teh AAF has so much of it floating around on eBay even today. But I think if they had around 200 full size Riddell helmets, they'd have sold out by the end of the season if not the first two home games. They've got a waitlist for whenever jerseys finally get released, but that still hasn't happened yet. So maybe there are issues at the factory that haven't allowed them to get to the minimums they want before sending them out. 

 

Those late night games aren't helping them with bums on seats that's for sure.

 

I never realised you lot collected helmets as much as you do.

[BBTV]

If you're starting a league from scratch, in year 1 would you rather every team be within a game of .500 and be in it until the end (albeit at the expense of mediocrity), or would you rather there be a couple of great teams, at the expense of some teams totally sucking?   Like if you were booking it and could control the outcome, which scenario would be most beneficial to getting the league established and getting a foothold in all the markets?

[MJWalker45]

On 3/22/2023 at 8:22 AM, Red Comet said:

To the surprise of no one, the XFL has its lowest ratings of the year going up against the NCAA Tournament

https://theathletic.com/4336479/2023/03/22/xfl-tv-ratings-midseason/?source=freedailyemail&campaign=601983&access_token=8328993&redirected=1

According to the league, it was somewhat expected. They also decided using FX to broadcast games wasn't as effective as having all games available on ESPN+.

 

"Recent programming tinkering by ESPN to shift some games from FX to ESPN2 didn’t radically improve the XFL’s viewership, although it probably staved off a sharper decline.

There’s a legitimate case for guarded optimism that the league’s television viewership should improve. This coming weekend will include the first XFL games on ABC since Week 1, which should help boost viewership because broadcast networks typically have bigger audiences than cable. And fans and potential fans will see more promotion, too, so they know the games are coming.

In addition to five more ABC telecasts, there are another eight upcoming games on ESPN, which is a bigger eyeball-drawing channel than ESPN2 and FX.

That said, the XFL still will have to contend with basketball sucking up a lot of sports viewership, along with the start of baseball, and events like The Masters. The WBC is over, however. There’s no streaming viewership breakdown for XFL game broadcasts on ESPN+, but it’s unlikely to be much of a needle-mover in terms of overall audience averages. Same for Spanish-language ESPN Deportes that airs some of the games. That all said, credit the XFL for still playing. Three years ago, the COVID-19 situation halted nearly all sports in mid-March, and then-owner Vince McMahon paused XFL 2.0 before pulling the plug entirely and sending the operation into bankruptcy.

"Other spring pro football leagues have come over gone over the past several decades, including the NFL’s own minor league that played mostly in Europe in the 1990s. Costs and eventual lack of fan interest are the usual culprits in their demise. Quality of play, particularly for fans used to watching NFL-caliber talent or their favorite college powerhouse, is something that can be masked only partially by slick broadcasts and funky rules — and the XFL and USFL have generally been on par as second-tier football properties while using mostly unknown players (and many retread or familiar name coaches).

It was in late 2020 that Johnson and his business partners paid $15 million to buy McMahon’s XFL out of bankruptcy. They’ve spent undisclosed sums since to relaunch the league.

The XFL’s broadcast rights deal with the Disney networks is for five years and is worth between $100 million and $150 million over that time, according to Sportico. And Cardinale is a former Goldman Sachs partner who founded sports-minded private equity firm RedBird Capital in 2014. So in theory, capital is available to paper over the start-up and operational costs for as long as their tolerance for subsidizing losses lasts.

Fox has reportedly budgeted $150 million over three seasons for the USFL, which the network owns and operates. That league, named for the 1980s USFL that flamed out after three seasons of trying to compete economically for NFL talent, begins its second season in mid-April.

The eight-team USFL’s 10-game 2022 regular season averaged 715,000 viewers across Fox and NBC channels, per Sports Business Journal, and its title game last July averaged 1.52 million viewers on Fox. That was enough for the network to stay patient with the league. Like the XFL is experiencing now, it had several games last season average fewer than 300,000 viewers on cable. Three more aired exclusively on NBC’s paid Peacock streaming service and no viewership for those have been released.

And for context, the NFL last season averaged more than 16 million viewers per regular-season game.

The XFL’s final two 2023 regular-season weekends, and then three playoff games that culminate with the May 13 championship game on ABC, will compete against the start of the second USFL season".

 

[Sec19Row53]

The living legend known as Kurt Benkert has signed with the Brahmas. That should about guarantee a title.

NOTE - the above post is sarcastic. I like me some Benkert, because backups to the backup are always living legends.

[GDAWG]