2023 - 2024 NBA changes

[MilSox]

Historically speaking, only Europeans care about the FIBA cup, and Americans only care about the Olympics. This is why Team USA has won "only"  5 of the 20 FIBA cups (still tied with Yugoslavia for the most), but 16 of the 19 gold medals in the Olympiads they've competed in... which includes the most recent gold medal.

I would also remind everyone of the McDonald's World Championship... basketball's equivalent of the FIFA Club Cup in the 80s and 90s. I went to the first ever championship game at the MECCA Arena and watched a bunch of Bucks bench players beat the holy hell out of the Soviets. They cancelled the series because the NBA teams they sent over, which usually weren't even the NBA champs, were beating the piss out of the best club teams Europe had to offer.

 

I do think Team USA vs Team World would be an interesting, competitive matchup.... and for years I've wanted that to be the format of the NBA all star game. But your average NBA team is still far and away better than their equivalent in any European league and it's not even close. There's a reason why the best European players all play in the NBA. Thus, the NBA champs are the World Champs.

[McCall]

24 minutes ago, MilSox said:

Historically speaking, only Europeans care about the FIBA cup, and Americans only care about the Olympics. This is why Team USA has won "only"  5 of the 20 FIBA cups (still tied with Yugoslavia for the most), but 16 of the 19 gold medals in the Olympiads they've competed in... which includes the most recent gold medal.

I would also remind everyone of the McDonald's World Championship... basketball's equivalent of the FIFA Club Cup in the 80s and 90s. I went to the first ever championship game at the MECCA Arena and watched a bunch of Bucks bench players beat the holy hell out of the Soviets. They cancelled the series because the NBA teams they sent over, which usually weren't even the NBA champs, were beating the piss out of the best club teams Europe had to offer.

 

I do think Team USA vs Team World would be an interesting, competitive matchup.... and for years I've wanted that to be the format of the NBA all star game. But your average NBA team is still far and away better than their equivalent in any European league and it's not even close. There's a reason why the best European players all play in the NBA. Thus, the NBA champs are the World Champs.

Yes, the World Cup is not highly prioritized by USA Basketball. The Olympics are really the only international competition they truly put their all into, and honestly even that comes in second behind the NBA Championship. They don't directly conflict with each other, but players will sometimes forgo the Olympics to prepare for the upcoming season. Some international players do as well. Wemby bypassed playing for France this year in the World Cup to prepare for his upcoming rookie season (although he does intend to play for France in the Olympics).

 

Some people see "World Cup" and automatically associate it with the high level of the FIFA World Cup, which IS the pinnacle international competition for soccer.

[Germanshepherd]

1 hour ago, MilSox said:

I would also remind everyone of the McDonald's World Championship... basketball's equivalent of the FIFA Club Cup in the 80s and 90s. I went to the first ever championship game at the MECCA Arena and watched a bunch of Bucks bench players beat the holy hell out of the Soviets. They cancelled the series because the NBA teams they sent over, which usually weren't even the NBA champs, were beating the piss out of the best club teams Europe had to offer.

 

The 1990 Knicks needed overtime to beat Scavolini Pesaro, and the 1991 Lakers won by two (with an infamously friendly whistle) but by and large yes the games were uncompetitive. 

https://www.nytimes.com/1990/10/12/sports/basketball-in-spain-knicks-are-shaky-but-hold-on.html

https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1991-10-20-sp-376-story.html

 

[The_Admiral]

I have a memory of the media jerking off the Spurs in 2005 for putting "NBA Champions" on their banner instead of "World Champions" in deference to the game's international growth and their international roster, but image search was showing all of their banners reading "NBA Champions." But then I added "2003" and a-ha, they did go back and change them all later:

 

 

 

 

I guess we can get a list of all the teams (it's the NBA, so it won't take too long), but

* the Lakers and Celtics still use "World Champions,"

* the Bulls split the difference with "NBA World Champions" both on the original Stadium banners and the remade/96-97-98 ones at the United Center

* the Pistons were World Champions at the Palace but NBA World Champions on the new banners downtown

* the Spurs use "NBA Champions." Now, at least

* the Warriors used to use "NBA World Champions" for the old ones but have just been "NBA Champions" for the new ones

* the nouveau-riche Heat use neither qualifier and just have "champions!" with the Heat ball for an o

* Mavs and Cavs are NBA Champions

* Bucks and Raptors are World Champions, so much for deference to their international rosters

* the Sacramento Kings' banner reads "ROCHESTER [NBA logo] WORLD CHAMPIONS 1951," so how you score that one is up to you, I suppose

* I guess we haven't seen which way the Nuggets will go yet

 

So it looks like the standard/custom I thought had been instituted was not, as evidenced by three of the last four. I don't think there's any reason to stray from "World Champions" on these with the knowledge that this was the best assemblage of talent anywhere that year. 

[BShaw20]

 

The hardwood classic perhaps?

[pepis21]

  

7 hours ago, McCall said:

Why? Where do the best players in the world play? The NBA. The best Europeans come to play in the NBA. Once again, you're confusing the World Cup with the NBA. Which is like saying Premier League teams compete in the FIFA World Cup (National teams).

Ehh... You're a the perfect example why Lyles is right. USA ain't world.  Term "World Champions" came when NBA had basically only Americans players because many best non-US players either lived in an Iron Curtain countries or didn't want lose their eligibile to playing for their respective NT's (like Oscar Schmidt). Even now players that could still be in a league like Mirotić came back from NBA to play in Euroleague (+ domestic league) and many good players like e.g Ponitka never had a chance to play in the NBA.

 

Also I'm so, so glad that you mentioned Premier League, because EPL by many is considering as a best football league in the world, but no one recognize Man City as a 'World Champions" (at least until they win FIFA Club World Cup) but as a "English Champions".  Same is with NBA, no one except Americans and maybe Canadians recognize Denver Nuggets as a "World Champions" but as a "NBA Champions" because this what they are.

If someone create World League where NBA would play against teams from over the world, then they could be a World Champions.

 

3 hours ago, MilSox said:

I would also remind everyone of the McDonald's World Championship... basketball's equivalent of the FIFA Club Cup in the 80s and 90s.

Thing like that technically still exist as a FIBA Intercontinental Cup where you've got BCL winner, BAL winner, Asia Champion Cup winner, BCL Americas winner and G-League winner, but no one care about it.

 

45 minutes ago, BShaw20 said:

 

The hardwood classic perhaps?

 

Rumors says about blue T-Mac era jersey which mean that I'm already excited.

[McCall]

12 minutes ago, pepis21 said:

  

Ehh... You're a the perfect example why Lyles is right. USA ain't world.  Term "World Champions" came when NBA had basically only Americans players because many best non-US players either lived in an Iron Curtain countries or didn't want lose their eligibile to playing for their respective NT's (like Oscar Schmidt). Even now players that could still be in a league like Mirotić came back from NBA to play in Euroleague (+ domestic league) and many good players like e.g Ponitka never had a chance to play in the NBA.

 

Also I'm so, so glad that you mentioned Premier League, because EPL by many is considering as a best football league in the world, but no one recognize Man City as a 'World Champions" (at least until they win FIFA Club World Cup) but as a "English Champions".  Same is with NBA, no one except Americans and maybe Canadians recognize Denver Nuggets as a "World Champions" but as a "NBA Champions" because this what they are.

If someone create World League where NBA would play against teams from over the world, then they could be a World Champions.

 

Thing like that technically still exist as a FIBA Intercontinental Cup where you've got BCL winner, BAL winner, Asia Champion Cup winner, BCL Americas winner and G-League winner, but no one care about it.

The NBA is the undisputed TOP level basketball league in the world. While the Premier League may be considered the best soccer league in the world, it's not where all the best players play. They are spread out across many leagues in many countries. All the best basketball players are playing in, or aim to play in, the NBA. Same with NFL, NHL and MLB. So it's not exactly the same thing. This is why it is not completely outlandish for the champion of one these leagues to call themselves the World Champions. Conversely, the champions of MLS could not make this claim as there is no one undisputed top level soccer league in the world.

 

And those players who came back to EuroLeague did so because they could no longer compete at the NBA level or were fading and decided to return home to finish their careers. But the best international players, Jokic, Giannis, Doncic, and in the past, the Gasol brothers, all came to the NBA once they were eligible and/or good enough to make it. For Team Germany, where do the Wagner brothers play? In Germany? No, the NBA for the Orlando Magic. They don't have a world league because the best players from around the world are already in the NBA. And they only send the G-League team to the Intercontinental Cup because it is below the level of the NBA.

 

The entire premise for your argument seems to be more of "sticking it to America" than actually making a valid point. Noah Lyles was completely off the mark with his reasoning for his opinion, yet you keep bringing it up as if it's a statement of fact.

[The_Admiral]

30 minutes ago, pepis21 said:

USA ain't world.  Term "World Champions" came when NBA had basically only Americans players because many best non-US players either lived in an Iron Curtain countries or didn't want lose their eligibile to playing for their respective NT's (like Oscar Schmidt).

 

In Soviet Russia, guard shoots YOU!

[Guest]

2 hours ago, McCall said:

The entire premise for your argument seems to be more of "sticking it to America" than actually making a valid point. 

 

Sticking it to the man...or make that the corporations. Nobody's sticking it to America in men's association football, for example.

[JTernup]

2 hours ago, pepis21 said:

 Same is with NBA, no one except Americans and maybe Canadians recognize Denver Nuggets as a "World Champions" but as a "NBA Champions" because this what they are.

If someone create World League where NBA would play against teams from over the world, then they could be a World Champions.

This conversation always makes me laugh. Your side always makes this second point like we can’t wrap our minds around a world league or that you’ve added something interesting or nuanced. Everyone gets it.

 

Its like saying World War 2 wasn’t really a world war because Yemen wasn’t involved.

 

It actually reminds me of when a child says something that is technically right but the adult just laughs it off and keeps living their life because they are older, smarter, better, and makes more money.

[The_Admiral]

I yelled at my dad for drinking and driving when I was 5. It was a Diet 7-Up.

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, the admiral said:

I yelled at my dad for drinking and driving when I was 5. It was a Diet 7-Up.

 

 

[pepis21]

10 hours ago, McCall said:

The NBA is the undisputed TOP level basketball league in the world.

Not arguing with that, but still 'N' in NBA stands for National and all teams are playing inside United States borders + Toronto. Again it isn't a World.

 

10 hours ago, McCall said:

For Team Germany, where do the Wagner brothers play? In Germany? No, the NBA for the Orlando Magic.

And where Issac Bonga or Andreas Obst who were a big contribiutions to Germans winning play? In Bayern Munchen.

Heck Obst never played in NBA and he was able to score 24 pts over USA which entirely loaded with NBA guys.

 

You see the point now? If you want to be a World Champions then just play against rest of the world especially that Phoenix Suns lose to Adelaide 36ers last year, so is not like NBA teams are unbeateable.

 

8 hours ago, JTernup said:

Its like saying World War 2 wasn’t really a world war because Yemen wasn’t involved.

 

By that logic FIFA/FIBA World Cup couldn't be a World Cup because only 32 countries are playing while UN recognize 195 countries.

 

8 hours ago, JTernup said:

This conversation always makes me laugh.

 

I always laugh too when I see how egocentric americans are with thinking like whole world is spinning around them and when a guy like Lyles polemize then sh#tstorm is came.

[McCall]

3 hours ago, pepis21 said:

No one arguing with that, but still 'N' in NBA stands for National and all teams are playing inside United States borders + Toronto. Again it's not a World.

And where Issac Bonga or Andreas Obst who were a big contribiutions to Germans winning play? In Bayern Munchen.

Heck Obst never played in NBA and he was able to score 24 pts over USA which entirely loaded with NBA guys.

 

You see the point now? If you want to be a World Champions then just play against rest of the world especially that Phoenix Suns lose to Adelaide 36ers last year, so is not like NBA teams are not unbeateable.

 

 

By that logic FIFA/FIBA World Cup couldn't be a World Cup because only 32 countries are playing when UN recognize 195 countires.

 

 

I always laugh too when I see how egocentric americans are with thinking like whole world is spinning around them and when a guy like Lyles polemize then sh#tstorm is came.

First off, Germany won the FIBA World Cup. No one cares about that. The Olympics are the pinnacle of international competition for basketball. The USA didn't even send it's best players. Hell, most countries didn't. Serbia didn't have Jokic. Greece didn't have Giannis and Slovenia didn't have Doncic.

 

Secondly, again, your mixing international competition with club competition. And if you read anywhere, it will state that the NBA is the top level of basketball in the world. It's not "egocentric American" to say that. It's a statement of fact. Seems to be a little more of an inferiority complex for you, actually. The NBA does not exclude non-Americans. The best players from all over the world play there, which is why it is not out of bounds (pun intended) to refer to the NBA Champions as WORLD Champions.

[pepis21]

 

1 hour ago, McCall said:

First off, Germany won the FIBA World Cup. No one cares about that.

Wrongful statement. Ask Germans if they don't care, ask Serbians if they don't care, ask South Sudanese if they don't care. Americans don't care and that's might be true.

 

1 hour ago, McCall said:

Slovenia didn't have Doncic.

 

You already told that you don't care, so you don't need to show how much you don't.

 

1 hour ago, McCall said:

Greece didn't have Giannis

 

Although If you'd care a little you'd know that Giannis withdrew in last minute due to injury and few others players like Murray or Porzingis withdrew from same reason also straight before tournament. Anyway it doesn't change that all of them wanted to play and were in rosters.

 

Only Jokić didn't want to play and prefer to watch horse racings, but Jokić is a Jokić and his stance to baskteball is well known.

 

1 hour ago, McCall said:

The USA didn't even send it's best players.

 

Still they send NBA players and if guys who didn't play in NBA can beat them up then it mean that maybe NBA not necessarily have the best players in the world. Think about it.

 

And I'm gonna ends here because you refuted your own argument so there is nothing more to talking about. The only thing you proved that Lyles has right (guys like Shaq and Big shot Rob also agrees with him).

 

Last but not least I bring quote from Pop:

"It doesn't make sense for an NBA team to call themselves world champions. I don't remember anybody playing anybody outside our borders to get that tag."

 

 

[McCall]

1 hour ago, pepis21 said:

 

Wrongful statement. Ask Germans if they don't care, ask Serbians if they don't care, ask South Sudanese if they don't care. Americans don't care and that's might be true.

 

 

You already told us that you don't care, so you don't need to show us how much you don't care.

 

 

But If you'd care a little you'd know that Giannis withdrew in last minute due to injury and few others players like Murray or Porzingis withdrew from same reason also straight before tournament, but all of them wanted to play and were in rosters. Only Jokić didn't want to play and prefer to watch horse racings but Jokić is a Jokić.

 

 

Still they send NBA players and if guys who didn't play in NBA can beat them up that means that maybe NBA not necessarily have the best players in the world.

 

And I'm gonna ends here because you refuted your own argument so there is nothing more to talking about. The only thing you proved that Lyles has right (guys like Shaq and Big shot Rob also agrees with him).

 

Last but not least I bring quote from Pop:

"It doesn't make sense for an NBA team to call themselves world champions. I don't remember anybody playing anybody outside our borders to get that tag."

 

 

No I didn't. You're just claiming I did because it's your opinion and your ego is taking over. And once again, you're mixing International and NBA. And I could care less what Pop says. He says a lot of things that don't make any sense about anything. The fact is the best players in the world play in the NBA. Not a lie. And I say that has someone who's no longer a fan of the NBA because the quality of play has gone to crap since the 90s. Doesn't make it any less of the top league in the world. Deal with it.

[henburg]

The entire argument is dumb because technically, no, the Denver Nuggets didn't play every single team in the world last year, but there is also no doubt that they are the best team in the world. They are even lead by International talent with Jokic from Serbia and Jamal Murray from Canada. Arguing that they are not "World Champions" is technically true, but it's just a semantic argument at the end of the day. Would people really want the Nuggets to have played an International Champions Tournament after winning the Larry O'Brien trophy to prove their worth of holding an unofficial label? It would be a tremendous waste of time for everybody involved.

 

10 hours ago, JTernup said:

Its like saying World War 2 wasn’t really a world war because Yemen wasn’t involved.

 

This is a perfect metaphor for this discussion. I think a lot of international posters I've seen around the internet are conflating some NBA teams labeling themselves World Champions as a typical sign of American arrogance, and while we are generally arrogant people when it comes to our self perception within the world, this is not an example of that.

[pepis21]

13 minutes ago, McCall said:

No I didn't. You're just claiming I did because it's your opinion

 

If you told me that Doncic didn't play in the World Cup or no one care about Word Cup then how can I treat you?

Your only argument is that NBA is the best league which no one even argues with that because it's a fact, but I gave you an example with Premier League and you still don't understand (I could change EPL to Champions League if you want because result will be same). So who's ego is taking over who?

 

[McCall]

23 minutes ago, pepis21 said:

 

If you told me that Doncic didn't play in the World Cup or no one care about Word Cup then how can I treat you?

Your only argument is that NBA is the best league which no one even argues with that because it's a fact, but I gave you an example with Premier League and you still don't understand (I could change EPL to Champions League if you want because result will be same). So who's ego is taking over who?

 

And my response, which you clearly ignored, was that soccer is not the same as basketball. Even though the EPL may be considered the best league in the world, at the moment, it is not the undisputed top level since so many of the world's best players play in leagues all over the world. Messi is in MLS, Ronaldo and Neymar are in Saudi Arabia. You have Serie A, La Liga, Bundesliga, etc. Any league at anytime can actually be considered the best league, but not the one league that every player is striving to reach. Heck, Pulisic just left the EPL for Serie A. Why would someone leave the top level for not the top level? (And before you say anything, no, I'm not saying he's the best player in the world or even one of the best. Just making the point) You made a false equivalency, which, actually, further proves my point. There is no league(s) that is competitively on the level of the NBA in basketball. Therefore, all the best players in the world migrate there to play (for club competition, not international competition).

[spartacat_12]

On 9/10/2023 at 10:57 PM, TheRealPepman said:

Do you think some NBA Champions should change the "World Champions" text on their banners in favor of just "Champions" or "NBA Champions"?

 

I've long tolerated "NBA World Champions" because it's been that way for the longest time but I'm having doubts now.

 

Perhaps Noah Lyles has a point after all.

 

I guess we should change the name of the Miss Universe pageant. How dare we anoint someone Miss Universe when only Earthlings are competing.

 

14 hours ago, pepis21 said:

 Also I'm so, so glad that you mentioned Premier League, because EPL by many is considering as a best football league in the world, but no one recognize Man City as a 'World Champions" (at least until they win FIFA Club World Cup) but as a "English Champions".  Same is with NBA, no one except Americans and maybe Canadians recognize Denver Nuggets as a "World Champions" but as a "NBA Champions" because this what they are.

 

Association football is a completely different scenario. Is the EPL the top league in the world? Yes, but the gap between it and the next best league isn't that large. If you made a list of the top 100 footballers in the world they'd be spread across several leagues on multiple continents. If you made a list of the top 100 basketball players in the world you'd have 100 NBA players.