2023 NFL Regular Season Through Super Bowl LVIII

[TrueYankee26]

5 hours ago, Cujo said:

The ultimate karma. Fxk you Watson. Fxk you Browns.

 

Worst trade in Browns history, maybe even NFL history

[throwuascenario]

1 hour ago, TrueYankee26 said:

Worst trade in Browns history, maybe even NFL history

 

The Broncos trade for Wilson was far worse. They gave up just as much for a much older player who has played far worse.

 

The only thing that makes the Bryce Young trade better for the Panthers is the rookie deal Young is on. Heck, the Sam Darnold trade (2nd & 3rd round picks) is up there too.

 

The 49ers also gave up that much for a QB who played 3 games for them, although I place the blame for that far more on the decision to release him without giving him a chance than I do on the decision to make the trade.

[SFGiants58]

27 minutes ago, throwuascenario said:

 

The Broncos trade for Wilson was far worse. They gave up just as much for a much older player who has played far worse.

 

Wilson isn't an "alleged" rapist like Watson. That's why Watson is so much worse.

[throwuascenario]

24 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

 

Wilson isn't an "alleged" rapist like Watson. That's why Watson is so much worse.

 

In this country, it's innocent until proven guilty. Wasn't proven guilty, so innocent by definition. Don't like it, move to North Korea or somewhere else where evidence is irrelevant.

 

Read this book for more information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Kill_a_Mockingbird

 

Also, rape isn't even what he was "alleged" to have done. It's funny how you put alleged in quotes for something that didn't even have the evidence to go to criminal trial.

[SFGiants58]

OJ and Casey Anthony were found innocent. Would any sane person argue they didn't do the crimes for which they were accused?

 

28 minutes ago, throwuascenario said:

Also, rape isn't even what he was "alleged" to have done. It's funny how you put alleged in quotes for something that didn't even have the evidence to go to criminal trial.

 

It was inaccurate, but it was still a sex crime accusation. When it's enough accusers gathering their stories, it tends to project a far more guilty look than only a few accusers.

[throwuascenario]

2 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

OJ and Casey Anthony were found innocent. Would any sane person argue they didn't do the crimes for which they were accused?

 

Without much knowledge of either case (I don't even know who Casey Anthony is) - if they were found innocent in court, I'd consider them to be innocent. I'm not saying that every single person found innocent in court didn't do it (although I believe at least as many are wrongfully convicted). I'm saying that we have to believe people are innocent until they are proven guilty. Society falls apart without it. We can't just have endless witch hunts with people weaponizing accusations.

 

2 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

It was inaccurate, but it was still a sex crime accusation. When it's enough accusers gathering their stories, it tends to project a far more guilty look than only a few accusers.

 

But they weren't all independent of each other. They all were rounded up by the same lawyer to sue him in a civil case. Each of them obviously had knowledge of the others when accusing. You don't think all of them jumping on this lawsuit - using each other for credibility - for a payday is at least possible? Them taking him to civil trial before criminal, to me, says volumes. And like I mentioned earlier, there wasn't even enough evidence to make it to criminal trial when they did try it. If they had literally any evidence at all, it goes to trial.

 

All of that is irrelevant though because it doesn't change the fact that innocence until guilt is proven is a bedrock of a civilized society and he wasn't proven guilty so he must be presumed innocent.

[SFGiants58]

NVM, I don't want to escalate the situation and get in trouble here.

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by SFGiants58

[infrared41]

26 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

OJ and Casey Anthony were found innocent.

 

Those two were not found innocent, they were found not guilty. It's an important distinction.

[Sykotyk]

4 hours ago, infrared41 said:

 

Those two were not found innocent, they were found not guilty. It's an important distinction.

It's aggravating that so many people confuse the two. THERE'S A HUGE DIFFERENCE in the two statements.

[VDizzle12]

15 hours ago, Cujo said:

The ultimate karma. Fxk you Watson. Fxk you Browns.

 

 

Congratulations. Glad you're doing victory laps after a season ending injury which will lead to another season gone down the toilet. Something Cleveland fans have dealt with my entire 30+ years being a fan.

 

I guess you'll just say we deserve it right...

[who do you think]

3 hours ago, VDizzle12 said:

Congratulations. Glad you're doing victory laps after a season ending injury which will lead to another season gone down the toilet. Something Cleveland fans have dealt with my entire 30+ years being a fan.

 

I guess you'll just say we deserve it right...

 

The fans don't deserve it, but the organization definitely deserves to eat it. Trading three years of high-round draft picks and committing $230M in fully guaranteed money to someone who at the time a) was facing a number of serious allegations, b) had just sat out a full year because he ragequit on his old team for no reason, and c) was never good enough to justify such an over-the-top package in the first place... was really, really dumb. That the guy who has to write the checks (Haslam) is scummy even by NFL standards is the cherry on top.

[Cujo]

15 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

OJ and Casey Anthony were found innocent.

 

[Cujo]

16 hours ago, throwuascenario said:

The Broncos trade for Wilson was far worse. They gave up just as much for a much older player who has played far worse.

 

DEAD WRONG.

 

The Browns gave up 3 first round picks (on top of 4 or 5 other picks) and broke off the largest check to any player in league history, ALL GUARANTEED. And this is to a guy who allegedly assaulted 25+ women. As for on-the-field, Watson is a liability and has delivered on one good half of football since he arrived. The Browns' 6-3 record reflects their defense playing at a high level and back-up QBs and RBs getting the job done. I really don't see them missing a step without Watson.

 

As for Russ, he's turned a corner now that Hackett is gone and he's has had a couple months to finally get in sync with Payton's system. He's definitely not the player he was in Seattle, but some of that isn't his fault when he was QBing under the worst head coach in league history. While that trade was a definite Seahawks W, it's nowhere near as wasteful and catastrophic as the Watson deal.

 

  

15 hours ago, throwuascenario said:

In this country, it's innocent until proven guilty. Wasn't proven guilty, so innocent by definition. Don't like it, move to North Korea or somewhere else where evidence is irrelevant.

 

Read this book for more information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Kill_a_Mockingbird

 

Also, rape isn't even what he was "alleged" to have done. It's funny how you put alleged in quotes for something that didn't even have the evidence to go to criminal trial.

 

Q: Would you allow your girlfriend or sister in a locked room with Watson?

[infrared41]

4 hours ago, Cujo said:

The Browns gave up 3 first round picks (on top of 4 or 5 other picks) and broke off the largest check to any player in league history, ALL GUARANTEED. And this is to a guy who allegedly assaulted 25+ women. As for on-the-field, Watson is a liability and has delivered on one good half of football since he arrived. The Browns' 6-3 record reflects their defense playing at a high level and back-up QBs and RBs getting the job done. I really don't see them missing a step without Watson.

 

Even if Watson were a model citizen, it's still an idiotic trade. Any QB short of Mahomes (and I'm not sure I make that deal even for him) isn't worth anywhere near what the Browns gave up for Watson. People act like the Browns were one player away from a Super Bowl when the Watson deal was made. They weren't. Not even close. No one saw this defense being what it is now when the Watson deal was made. Long story short, the smart move would have been to give Mayfield one more season then take a look at available QBs. Instead, the Browns panicked, made a deal with the devil, and trashed the future of the franchise for a good long while. If the...ahem...brain trust of the Cleveland Browns weren't such morons, this whole mess could have (and should have) been Atlanta's problem. But here we are...as usual.

[VDizzle12]

3 hours ago, infrared41 said:

 

Even if Watson were a model citizen, it's still an idiotic trade. Any QB short of Mahomes (and I'm not sure I make that deal even for him) isn't worth anywhere near what the Browns gave up for Watson. People act like the Browns were one player away from a Super Bowl when the Watson deal was made. They weren't. Not even close. No one saw this defense being what it is now when the Watson deal was made. Long story short, the smart move would have been to give Mayfield one more season then take a look at available QBs. Instead, the Browns panicked, made a deal with the devil, and trashed the future of the franchise for a good long while. If the...ahem...brain trust of the Cleveland Browns weren't such morons, this whole mess could have (and should have) been Atlanta's problem. But here we are...as usual.

 

Remember how many people mocked the Browns and Mayfield from the second he was drafted? Remember how he was cocky, arrogant and basically just a game manager? I literally had to hear about it on a weekly basis. First they were dumb for drafting him and now they are dumb for trading him away.  He never got any credit for wins and was always the punching bag after losses. I'm sure if you go through the NFL season threads here, NFL reddit and Twitter you'll find a million posts trashing Baker while he was in Cleveland. 

 

Not only that he had a strained relationship with the front office, coaches and players. He wanted Mahomes money and played through a torn shoulder to prove it, costing the team games. Myles Garrett is a once in a generation player and had no interest in playing on a team with him anymore. Is it worth keeping Baker around if it means losing Myles? It already cost them OBJ and Landry. How many other players would have bailed? He was my favorite Browns QB, but there was no realistic scenario where he could have stayed. 

 

The Browns had to something and like half the league, they went after Watson. Just so happens that a bidding war drove up the Texans asking price and only 5 teams were willing to match it. 

[infrared41]

1 hour ago, VDizzle12 said:

 

Remember how many people mocked the Browns and Mayfield from the second he was drafted? Remember how he was cocky, arrogant and basically just a game manager? I literally had to hear about it on a weekly basis. First they were dumb for drafting him and now they are dumb for trading him away.  He never got any credit for wins and was always the punching bag after losses. I'm sure if you go through the NFL season threads here, NFL reddit and Twitter you'll find a million posts trashing Baker while he was in Cleveland. 

 

Not only that he had a strained relationship with the front office, coaches and players. He wanted Mahomes money and played through a torn shoulder to prove it, costing the team games. Myles Garrett is a once in a generation player and had no interest in playing on a team with him anymore. Is it worth keeping Baker around if it means losing Myles? It already cost them OBJ and Landry. How many other players would have bailed? He was my favorite Browns QB, but there was no realistic scenario where he could have stayed. 

 

The Browns had to something and like half the league, they went after Watson. Just so happens that a bidding war drove up the Texans asking price and only 5 teams were willing to match it. 

 

I'd almost get it if Watson was going to be available for the entire 2022 season, but the Browns knew he wouldn't be. There was no guarantee he'd even be allowed to play in 2022. Not to mention he hadn't set foot on a field in over a year. The 2022 team was going 8-9 at best and everyone knew it.  Why not grab a stopgap QB and reassess after the season if Baker was a problem? That would have been the smarter play. (And yes, I thought that exact thing back then - look it up) Watson was a desperation move. Period.  Even worse, it was a stupid move.

 

My question to you is this; is it worth going 4-13 for ten years to have what's left of  Deshaun Watson for the next couple seasons? The Browns aren't going to a Super Bowl either way.

[VDizzle12]

3 hours ago, infrared41 said:

 

I'd almost get it if Watson was going to be available for the entire 2022 season, but the Browns knew he wouldn't be. There was no guarantee he'd even be allowed to play in 2022. Not to mention he hadn't set foot on a field in over a year. The 2022 team was going 8-9 at best and everyone knew it.  Why not grab a stopgap QB and reassess after the season if Baker was a problem? That would have been the smarter play. (And yes, I thought that exact thing back then - look it up) Watson was a desperation move. Period.  Even worse, it was a stupid move.

 

My question to you is this; is it worth going 4-13 for ten years to have what's left of  Deshaun Watson for the next couple seasons? The Browns aren't going to a Super Bowl either way.

 

The way I see it, I've been a fan for my entire life and the Browns have never had a franchise QB. Constantly drafting bust after bust wasn't working. The only other option is to trade for one, which is what they did. They jumped at the chance to get a 26 year old 3x Pro Bowler. They had no choice but to act in desperation. The general understanding based on past suspensions was that he would get around 4 games. Nobody expected a full season or even the 11 games he got. Especially after he was cleared legally. Bringing in Jacoby was a pretty great stopgap to cover the suspension. Had the defense played at an average level I think that team would have been in the playoffs.

 

I'm not worried about the financial situation of the Browns 5-10 years from now. Nobody knows what the salary cap number will be at that time or which contracts will be restructured. Keep kicking the can down the road and deal with it later.

 

Right now I only care about next season when Chubb and Watson will be back. This season is cooked.  

[The_Admiral]

The Browns are one of the best teams in the league at keeping points off the board; they are not doomed by losing Watson

[infrared41]

14 hours ago, VDizzle12 said:

The way I see it, I've been a fan for my entire life and the Browns have never had a franchise QB.

 

Guess you weren't around for the Brian Sipe or Bernie Kosar years.

 

14 hours ago, VDizzle12 said:

The only other option is to trade for one, which is what they did. They jumped at the chance to get a 26 year old 3x Pro Bowler. They had no choice but to act in desperation.

 

There's always a choice. Wait a year and give all that money to Lamar Jackson. It's not like they didn't know he'd be a free agent. No way Baltimore matches the offer because they aren't that stupid. Maybe take a run at Aaron Rodgers. There's always a choice and most times it doesn't involve trading for a sexual predator.

 

14 hours ago, VDizzle12 said:

The general understanding based on past suspensions was that he would get around 4 games. Nobody expected a full season or even the 11 games he got. Especially after he was cleared legally.

 

Oh, if it was only going to be four games then I guess trading for a guy with all that baggage was the right thing to do. As I said earlier in this thread, there is a difference between being found innocent and being found not guilty. The same can be said for being "cleared legally." I don't think people have a true understanding of how much evidence is needed to take a legal case to court. If Watson were truly innocent, no lawyer with a brain would have taken the civil cases. As a rule, lawyers don't waste their time on a case that has absolutely no merit. So spare me the "women chasing money" argument.

 

14 hours ago, VDizzle12 said:

I'm not worried about the financial situation of the Browns 5-10 years from now. Nobody knows what the salary cap number will be at that time or which contracts will be restructured. Keep kicking the can down the road and deal with it later.

 

Fine. Can I assume you won't be in here complaining about how bad the Browns are three years from now?

 

14 hours ago, VDizzle12 said:

Right now I only care about next season when Chubb and Watson will be back. This season is cooked.  

 

Gotta respect someone who has his priorities in order.

[infrared41]

10 minutes ago, the admiral said:

The Browns are one of the best teams in the league at keeping points off the board

 

On both sides of the ball and that ain't easy to do, folks.