Marlins Name Change

[Gothamite]

Enough already with the "no support for a championship team " arguement.

On July 15th 2003 the Marlins were in third place, 3 games over .500 and 13 games out of first.

They only got hot in the last two weeks of the season, and only clinched the wildcard like 2 days before the season ended.

So, your argument in defense of the Marlins fans is that they're fair-weather? Really?

You can make any excuses you want. So far we've heard everything from "I can't go to the game - it might rain!" to "I can't go to the game - the previous owner was a jerk!"

The unavoidable fact is that the Marlins can win a World Championship and still vie for the lowest attendance in the majors.

Why should any Florida politician waste a single scrap of political capitol to build the Marlins a stadium, when the fans have shown that they won't even come out to watch the team when they win? It's pathetic.

I just don't get it. I had such high hopes for the Marlins. I really thought they would do well. Turns out I was half-right: they did very well on the field, but have been a failure with the fans.

[pooter]

Why should any Florida politician waste a single scrap of political capitol to build the Marlins a stadium, when the fans have shown that they won't even come out to watch the team when they win?  It's pathetic. 

I just don't get it. I had such high hopes for the Marlins. I really thought they would do well. Turns out I was half-right: they did very well on the field, but have been a failure with the fans.

Since 1993, and using teams that have played from 1993-2005 (that would not include the Devil Rays), the Marlins have outdrawn 6 other MLB teams and 2 have new parks (Pittsburgh and Detroit) and one switched cities (Montreal/Washington).

Team/Attendance totals 1993-2005)/AVG Per game

Florida - 22,056,117 - 21,991

Oakland - 21,965,640 - 21,526

Detroit - 21,480,007 - 21,003 ***New park***

Pittsburgh - 20,943,351 - 20,740 ***New park***

Minnesota - 20,322,032 - 19,903

Kansas City - 19,759,988 - 19,681

Mtl/Wash - 15,918,053 - 15,957 ***Moved***

*And, on a side note, they were very close to a favorite of Bud Selig:

Milwaukee - 22,656,184 - 22,220 ***New park***

I just don't get it. I had such high hopes for the A's, Tigers, Pirates, Twins, Royals, Brewers and Expos/Nats. I really thought they would do well. Turns out I was half-right: they did (fill in the blank)_____________ on the field, but have been a failure with the fans.

[Fred T. Jane]

Excuse Marlins fans if they are not inspired by a "championship calber" staff

that didn't have anyone with 15 wins.

Well, that uninspired staff sure shut down your beloved Yankees' bats now did it...

[griffin128]

Excuse Marlins fans if they are not inspired by a "championship calber" staff

that didn't have anyone with 15 wins.

Well, that uninspired staff sure shut down your beloved Yankees' bats now did it...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking that Marlins team. Even I was pulling for them at the end. But let's be realistic I don't think they were gonna sell many season tickets coming out of spring training.

The whole point here is that the fan support isn't there because of alot of reasons.

1. the weather.

2. the stadium

3. the location.

4. the owners

5. the firesales.

And even after all of those negatives they still draw 1.5 million a year.

And I know I know, San Antonio, or Norfolk would do much better in ticket sales.

Yeah sure they would.

Make them play in a football stadium in 100 degree San Antonio summers out in the middle of the desert, let them win a championship, then sell all the good players, then win again, the sell all the good players, and I know what you'll say, San Antonians will STILL fill 3 million seats. Of course they will.

[pooter]

And the Marlins aren't the only ones who face terrible traffic to and from the ballpark - somehow 40,000+ fans of the Dodgers and Angels manage to get themselves to games, and it isn't by public transport.

There are 2x (2.1) as many people in California as Florida.

(35,893,799 vs. 17,397,161)

There are almost 3x (2.8) as many people in:

Los Angeles County - 9,937,739

Orange County - 2,987,591

San Bernardino County - 1,921,131 = 14,846,461

as in

Miami-Dade County - 2,363,600

Broward County (Ft. Lauderdale) - 1,754,893

Palm Beach (WPB) = 1,243,230 = 5,361,723

Using your logic, since 1993 ('93-'05), the Marlins should have a total attendance of 61,757,127 and an average of 58,648.

Dolphins Stadium holds 36,331 for baseball and held 47,662 (baseball, 1993), 42,531 (2001); 75,000 (football).

[Claystation360]

I'm afraid Jacksonville hasn't exactly distinguished itself as a sports town itself....

Well , I know Jacksonville just has one Major League Franchise but I do not doubt the city could run a MLB or maybe even NBA Franchise the City is growing by leaps & bounds . Plus We have a rich BaseBall Tradition going back 100 years , I just also think were in a better location then Miami for a pro baseball team . The Weather is better Rain wise & it doesn't get as hot , but still have the bright sunny days .

[Gothamite]

I'm afraid Jacksonville hasn't exactly distinguished itself as a sports town itself....

Well , I know Jacksonville just has one Major League Franchise but I do not doubt the city could run a MLB or maybe even NBA Franchise the City is growing by leaps & bounds . Plus We have a rich BaseBall Tradition going back 100 years , I just also think were in a better location then Miami for a pro baseball team . The Weather is better Rain wise & it doesn't get as hot , but still have the bright sunny days .

Support the one team you have first. Then we'll see about a second one.

[Gothamite]

Um, pooter, even if those numbers are right, you realize that being 24th in league attendance isn't anything to crow about, right?

And given that they won two championships during that period, while several of the other teams you mention languished in the cellar (two didn't even post a single winning record in that span!). And yet the mighty Marlins are right there with 'em, counting the empty seats.

Thank you. With that comparison, you have made my point. South Florida fans are not "fair-weather" fans. Fair weather fans support a team when it wins - South Florida hasn't even shown it will do that.

[pooter]

Um, pooter, even if those numbers are right, you realize that being 24th in league attendance isn't anything to crow about, right?

And given that they won two championships during that period, while several of the other teams you mention languished in the cellar (two didn't even post a single winning record in that span!). And yet the mighty Marlins are right there with 'em, counting the empty seats.

Thank you. With that comparison, you have made my point. South Florida fans are not "fair-weather" fans. Fair weather fans support a team when it wins - South Florida hasn't even shown it will do that.

Check them yourself. They came from ESPN.com and Baseball Reference.com. Hard numbers like that are too easily checked. Why would you question the accuracy of them?

Spin the rest how you see fit, but fair weather or not, if you base the argument on attendance numbers, then the Marlins aren't in as bad of shape as those others.

[Gothamite]

I only mentioned that because you didn't prove a citation.

Still, your numbers make the case well. Even during two championship runs, the Marlins are 24th in attendance. They're down with perpetual cellar-dwellars. That's pathetic.

I don't like fair-weather fans, but after enough seasons I can at least start to understand it. People don't like to see losing baseball year after year after year (masochist Cub fans aside). But when the team's fortunes on the field improve, so do box office receipts. Except in Miami.

Saying "our fanbase doesn't suck quite as badly as some others" is hardly a strong defense. If the best argument you can make is that Florida supports a 2-time World Champion club about as well as Pittsburgh supports a decade of sub-.500 ball, you've made my point.

[VitaminD]

Spin the rest how you see fit, but fair weather or not, if you base the argument on attendance numbers, then the Marlins aren't in as bad of shape as those others.

?

Explain how being a 2-time World Champion and being in the bottom 6 in attendance isn't "bad shape". Look at the company the Marlins are keeping at the bottom: the Royals and Pirates have been run like AAA clubs for most of the past decade, and the Expos were orphaned by MLB and forced to play 1/4 of their games in Puerto Rico while playing under the constant threat of relocation out of Quebec. In fact, explain how being in the bottom 20% of anything isn't being in "bad shape".

You're only proving Gothamite's point with your figures: in an area of over 5 million people to draw from, with a huge out-of-town tourist population (if I were from Chicago, and I could go to Florida and maybe catch an MLB game in April without wearing a parka, I'd do it), and with 2 World Series trophies to their credit (more than the Phillies' and Cubs' haul from their last 200 seasons... COMBINED), they're still among the worst MLB teams in terms of attendance.

It may be for any or all of the reasons posited so far, but those excuses aren't enough to explain why the Marlins have underperformed badly - and consistently - at the box office. It goes beyond the excuses and suggests that there are other reasons that a retractable-roofed stadium in downtown Miami won't solve. (And for the record, the closer the stadium is to Miami, the farther away it is from WPB, Lauderdale and a big chunk of their potential fan base, so I don't buy that one on face value.)

[Survival79]

Well, it looks like the Marlins might get their stadium after all. 

So this could be moot....

Clock strikes 12 on Marlins' stadium bill

[CubsFanBudMan]

People don't like to see losing baseball year after year after year (masochist Cub fans aside). 

Hey! Oh, I guess you're right.

with 2 World Series trophies to their credit (more than the Phillies' and Cubs' haul from their last 200 seasons... COMBINED),

Hey... oh.

Seriously, none of what I said was meant to be acceptable excuses for the Marlins or their fans. It was meant to shed light on one more reason it hasn't worked in Miami. Is the combination of all those factors enough of a reason to move? Probably. But will it really be better somewhere else? Who knows.

[rams80]

Why should any Florida politician waste a single scrap of political capitol to build the Marlins a stadium, when the fans have shown that they won't even come out to watch the team when they win?  It's pathetic. 

I just don't get it. I had such high hopes for the Marlins. I really thought they would do well. Turns out I was half-right: they did very well on the field, but have been a failure with the fans.

Since 1993, and using teams that have played from 1993-2005 (that would not include the Devil Rays), the Marlins have outdrawn 6 other MLB teams and 2 have new parks (Pittsburgh and Detroit) and one switched cities (Montreal/Washington).

Team/Attendance totals 1993-2005)/AVG Per game

Florida - 22,056,117 - 21,991

Oakland - 21,965,640 - 21,526

Detroit - 21,480,007 - 21,003 ***New park***

Pittsburgh - 20,943,351 - 20,740 ***New park***

Minnesota - 20,322,032 - 19,903

Kansas City - 19,759,988 - 19,681

Mtl/Wash - 15,918,053 - 15,957 ***Moved***

*And, on a side note, they were very close to a favorite of Bud Selig:

Milwaukee - 22,656,184 - 22,220 ***New park***

I just don't get it. I had such high hopes for the A's, Tigers, Pirates, Twins, Royals, Brewers and Expos/Nats. I really thought they would do well. Turns out I was half-right: they did (fill in the blank)_____________ on the field, but have been a failure with the fans.

Oakland-small market posterboy; keeps talking about moving, no world titles.

Detroit-on field performance in that time frame: AAA quality

Pittsburgh-on field performance in that time frame: pathetic

Minnesota-almost contracted, threatened to move, kind of kills enthusiasm for the sport up there, no world titles.

Kansas City-on field performance in that time frame: laughable

Montreal/Washington-almost contracted, roster gone in fire sale, godawful onfield performance, shipped to San Juan in that time frame. By 2000 MLB had effectively nuked Montreal as a market and they kept the team there for four more years.

[pooter]

Spin the rest how you see fit, but fair weather or not, if you base the argument on attendance numbers, then the Marlins aren't in as bad of shape as those others.

Explain how being a 2-time World Champion and being in the bottom 6 in attendance isn't "bad shape". (snip) In fact, explain how being in the bottom 20% of anything isn't being in "bad shape".

Somebody has to be at the top of the heap, and somebody has to be at the bottom. But, the Marlins could do a lot more than hold fire sales after every WS championship to attract fans.

You're only proving Gothamite's point with your figures:

Contrary to belief, I am not arguing one way or the other. I am just stating facts and putting out the numbers for you to digest.

I would prefer the Marlins stay in Miami, but I am not Bob Lorie and pi$$ing away my 2nd MLB franchise. He should realize that owning a MLB franchise is a privilege, not a right.

[pooter]

I only mentioned that because you didn't prove a citation.

I forgot, you were from New York:

Admit nothing...Deny everything...Demand proof.

I don't like fair-weather fans, but after enough seasons I can at least start to understand it.

The fans I hate are the ones that come in the 2nd inning, run to the concession stand 4x, leave in the 8th inning and talk on their cell phones the whole time. (Much like my two trips to Dodger Stadium.) I'd rather they not come at all.

Still, your numbers make the case well.  Even during two championship runs, the Marlins are 24th in attendance.  They're down with perpetual cellar-dwellars.  That's pathetic.

Like I said, the blame goes to Bob Loria for pi$$ing away the franchise. There is sooo much more that could be done to draw even the most casual fan to Dolphins Stadium.

  If the best argument you can make is that Florida supports a 2-time World Champion club about as well as Pittsburgh supports a decade of sub-.500 ball, you've made my point. 

Yes, but the Pirates have been in Pittsburgh for 115 years, and the Marlins have been around for 13 years.

[griffin128]

Why should any Florida politician waste a single scrap of political capitol to build the Marlins a stadium, when the fans have shown that they won't even come out to watch the team when they win?  It's pathetic. 

I just don't get it. I had such high hopes for the Marlins. I really thought they would do well. Turns out I was half-right: they did very well on the field, but have been a failure with the fans.

Since 1993, and using teams that have played from 1993-2005 (that would not include the Devil Rays), the Marlins have outdrawn 6 other MLB teams and 2 have new parks (Pittsburgh and Detroit) and one switched cities (Montreal/Washington).

Team/Attendance totals 1993-2005)/AVG Per game

Florida - 22,056,117 - 21,991

Oakland - 21,965,640 - 21,526

Detroit - 21,480,007 - 21,003 ***New park***

Pittsburgh - 20,943,351 - 20,740 ***New park***

Minnesota - 20,322,032 - 19,903

Kansas City - 19,759,988 - 19,681

Mtl/Wash - 15,918,053 - 15,957 ***Moved***

*And, on a side note, they were very close to a favorite of Bud Selig:

Milwaukee - 22,656,184 - 22,220 ***New park***

I just don't get it. I had such high hopes for the A's, Tigers, Pirates, Twins, Royals, Brewers and Expos/Nats. I really thought they would do well. Turns out I was half-right: they did (fill in the blank)_____________ on the field, but have been a failure with the fans.

Oakland-small market posterboy; keeps talking about moving, no world titles.

Detroit-on field performance in that time frame: AAA quality

Pittsburgh-on field performance in that time frame: pathetic

Minnesota-almost contracted, threatened to move, kind of kills enthusiasm for the sport up there, no world titles.

Kansas City-on field performance in that time frame: laughable

Montreal/Washington-almost contracted, roster gone in fire sale, godawful onfield performance, shipped to San Juan in that time frame. By 2000 MLB had effectively nuked Montreal as a market and they kept the team there for four more years.

Oakland - is so no a small market. Have you checked a map. It's like 20 miles from San Francisco which is like the fourth largest market in America. They keep calling themselves small market because they want money for a stadium but California in general has very few small markets.

Detroit - has enormous history. The Yankees sucked for all the 80's and most of the 90's and their fans kept coming. The Red Sox, White Sox, Cubs and Giants have a grand total of 2 world series in like 100 years and their fans still come.

Pittsburgh - Most beautiful ballpark in baseball. True, team sucks, but again they're fan base should be solid considering 100 years of baseball.

Minnesota - 2 world series titles since '87 and a bunch of division titles.

KC - yes they stink

MTL/Was - they stink worse.

Has anyone considered the fact that the reason the Marlins have'nt caught fire with the fans is because they're only 13 years old. It takes time for the fans to fall in love with a team. Do you think that we should all praise heaven that we have been given the gift of a baseball team. It's a business, not a gift and it may take some time effort and investment to build a diehard fan base.

[marlinfan]

Well, it looks like the Marlins might get their stadium after all. 

So this could be moot....

Clock strikes 12 on Marlins' stadium bill

This failed bill was a last ditch effort by the South Florida contingent in Tally. It doesn't kill what the Marlins are trying to do with Hialeah. Which my sources say is very close to happening....

[tdk1984]

Why should any Florida politician waste a single scrap of political capitol to build the Marlins a stadium, when the fans have shown that they won't even come out to watch the team when they win?  It's pathetic. 

I just don't get it. I had such high hopes for the Marlins. I really thought they would do well. Turns out I was half-right: they did very well on the field, but have been a failure with the fans.

Since 1993, and using teams that have played from 1993-2005 (that would not include the Devil Rays), the Marlins have outdrawn 6 other MLB teams and 2 have new parks (Pittsburgh and Detroit) and one switched cities (Montreal/Washington).

Team/Attendance totals 1993-2005)/AVG Per game

Florida - 22,056,117 - 21,991

Oakland - 21,965,640 - 21,526

Detroit - 21,480,007 - 21,003 ***New park***

Pittsburgh - 20,943,351 - 20,740 ***New park***

Minnesota - 20,322,032 - 19,903

Kansas City - 19,759,988 - 19,681

Mtl/Wash - 15,918,053 - 15,957 ***Moved***

*And, on a side note, they were very close to a favorite of Bud Selig:

Milwaukee - 22,656,184 - 22,220 ***New park***

I just don't get it. I had such high hopes for the A's, Tigers, Pirates, Twins, Royals, Brewers and Expos/Nats. I really thought they would do well. Turns out I was half-right: they did (fill in the blank)_____________ on the field, but have been a failure with the fans.

Oakland-small market posterboy; keeps talking about moving, no world titles.

Detroit-on field performance in that time frame: AAA quality

Pittsburgh-on field performance in that time frame: pathetic

Minnesota-almost contracted, threatened to move, kind of kills enthusiasm for the sport up there, no world titles.

Kansas City-on field performance in that time frame: laughable

Montreal/Washington-almost contracted, roster gone in fire sale, godawful onfield performance, shipped to San Juan in that time frame. By 2000 MLB had effectively nuked Montreal as a market and they kept the team there for four more years.

Oakland - is so no a small market. Have you checked a map. It's like 20 miles from San Francisco which is like the fourth largest market in America. They keep calling themselves small market because they want money for a stadium but California in general has very few small markets.

Detroit - has enormous history. The Yankees sucked for all the 80's and most of the 90's and their fans kept coming. The Red Sox, White Sox, Cubs and Giants have a grand total of 2 world series in like 100 years and their fans still come.

Pittsburgh - Most beautiful ballpark in baseball. True, team sucks, but again they're fan base should be solid considering 100 years of baseball.

Minnesota - 2 world series titles since '87 and a bunch of division titles.

KC - yes they stink

MTL/Was - they stink worse.

Has anyone considered the fact that the reason the Marlins have'nt caught fire with the fans is because they're only 13 years old. It takes time for the fans to fall in love with a team. Do you think that we should all praise heaven that we have been given the gift of a baseball team. It's a business, not a gift and it may take some time effort and investment to build a diehard fan base.

The Bay Area is not big enough to support two franchises. In fact the only markets in the US capable of supporting two franchises in one sport are New York and Los Angeles, the Bay Area is neither.

As a Yankee fan, you should know the Yanks didn't stink most of the '90s. Starting with '94, the franchise began its turnaround and beginning in '96, they've won the division every year except '97, and have made the playoffs every year since '95 and were the team of the 90s.

Also, it doesn't matter what the franchise has done for 100+ years as much as how they're doing now. If a team has won somewhat consistently for 100 years, but in the past decade had more 100-loss seasons than not, why should the fans constantly show up? By showing up to see a team run by an owner who obviously only cares about making money and not winning, they only encourage the owner to keep doing what he's doing.

Plus, Minnesota is a very small market. Many people in the area are too busy working to attend games.

[Gothamite]

Contrary to belief, I am not arguing one way or the other. I am just stating facts and putting out the numbers for you to digest.

You do, however, keep producing evidence that supports and strengthens my argument.

For which I thank you.