Nashville Predators Being Sold?

[IceCap]

Furthermore IceCap, you simply reject the notion that Nashville is still a growing market and could reach the "viable" stage in a few years.

There's been plenty of evidence and reasoning given on why moving from Nashville to Hamilton is far from a "no-brainer," but you just keep rejecting it.

No, there isn't plenty of evidence as to why staying in Nashville is a good idea. The market has ZERO potential to grow as a hockey market. Maybe a short boom of support due to a save the team movement, but that's all.

This is where it becomes no longer worth discussing with you.

So, you just read that line and ignored all the rest of my post? Hmm, so which one of us refuses to accept "evidence"?

BTW, I'm well aware that how I responded to STL's post goes against what BiB posted earlier. So without further ado...

"The market has ZERO potential to grow as a hockey market," in your opinion. In the wake of relocation rumors, Nashville may enjoy "a short boom of support due to a save the team movement, but that's all," in your opinion.

You are more than welcome to hold and express these opinions in the CCSLC... just as there are members of this community who are more than welcome to hold and express the opinion that the Nashville market should be given additional time to prove itself as home to the NHL's brand of major professional ice hockey.

However, it would be most appreciated if you could see your way clear to insuring that your posts on this topic are less strident in tone in the future. As someone who has attempted to engage in a reasoned debate with you on this topic, I can honestly say that your posts have grown more abrasive as the thread has lengthened. You are so absolutely convinced of your own stand on this issue that you come across as being completely dismissive of those posters who don't agree with you.

Trust me: I'd be shocked if there was a member of this community who wasn't abundantly aware of the fact that you wholeheartedly believe the interests of the Predators franchise - and the NHL overall - are best-served by relocating the franchise to Hamilton, Ontario. The in-your-face "hard sell" isn't necessary when making your point... and I can't believe that it is winning many converts to your way of thinking.

Bottom line? Let's all treat one another with a bit of dignity in this thread as we go forward. Let's all "agree to disagree" with some degree of mutual respect. If we can't express our opinions - whatever they might be - without "talking down" to our fellow posters, said opinions are better kept to one's self.

In short, debate and discuss to your heart's content. However, if the barely concealed disdain in posts continues, this thread is bound for the Graveyard.

Thanks.

Well first off, thanks for being one of the few "keep the team in Nashville" proponents willing to discuss the issue on a reasonable level.

While I admit my posts on the subject have been in a harsh tone, I don't apologize. Why? Well because STL and Mokba have done no better. If you're going to ask me to tone it down, go after them as well. The only reason I have posted my thoughts the way I have is in defence of myself, and the view I have on the subject.

You have Mokba making smart-ass remarks and refusing to "reiterate his points" when he never posted anything outside of one or two liners on the subject, and you have STL who's claiming I'm dismissing evidence of Nashville's viability as a hockey market, who then goes and ignores my posts sighting opinions and facts contrary to his claims. So from my point of view the "hard-sell" approach is my only real option, because I'm not going to let a wise-cracker who's clearly against the addition of a seventh Canadian team under any circumstance, and a hypocrite walk all over me.

I'll be willing to calm it down if both STL and Mokba agree to stop ignoring the very valid points I have presented in favour of moving the Preds to Hamilton, and Mokba stops acting like fonz. As long as they want to lob bombs I'm going to lob them back.

ZERO potential to grow as a hockey market," in your opinion. In the wake of relocation rumors, Nashville may enjoy "a short boom of support due to a save the team movement, but that's all," in your opinion.

Yes, it's all in my opinion, just as STL's view that the Preds have potential to grow their fanbase in Nashville by any significant number is only an opinion.

However, it would be most appreciated if you could see your way clear to insuring that your posts on this topic are less strident in tone in the future. As someone who has attempted to engage in a reasoned debate with you on this topic, I can honestly say that your posts have grown more abrasive as the thread has lengthened. You are so absolutely convinced of your own stand on this issue that you come across as being completely dismissive of those posters who don't agree with you.

Like I said before, if STL and Mokba are willing to put down the war drums so will I.

Yes, you're right, I am absolutely convinced of my stand on the issue.

See, like you pointed out, both sides have nothing to share but their opinions on the matter. Nashville not being able or willing to support NHL hockey is just an opinion, and Nashville having potential to grow as a hockey market is just an opinion. Neither one can be proven right, as we're more or less speculating about future events.

What makes me so sure that Nashville is a failed hockey market, however, is the overwhelming past evidence that supports my view. Subsequently, this evidence also disproves STL's point of view, IMO.

The team almost won the President's Trophy and they couldn't manage better then 23rd on the NHL attendance list, when a band-waggon effect should have propelled them to a much higher number. The thousands of free tickets given away just so the arena doesn't look empty. The apathy on the part of both the general Nashville population and the Nashville corporate community regarding the team, even after an outstanding season. All of this evidence points in the direction of Nashville being a failed hockey market rather then a market that just needs time to grow. It's not STL's argument that's wearing thin on me, it's his refusal to accept that evidence, to pretend it isn't there every single time I post it, and then accuse me of doing the same.

Hope I explained myself.

In short, debate and discuss to your heart's content. However, if the barely concealed disdain in posts continues, this thread is bound for the Graveyard.

If your willing to look both ways when looking for barley concealed disdain, then G-d speed.

[Brian in Boston]

Let me make this abundantly clear: My call for more civil discourse on this subject was meant for everyone taking part. Hence...

Let's all "agree to disagree" with some degree of mutual respect.

Note that I addressed the request to "all". Not Icecap79. Not Mockba. Not STL FANATIC. ALL. Therefore, I have to say that the "Mockba did this," and "STL FANATIC said that," justifications weren't necessary.

Once again, let's just share our opinions on the issue in question without resorting to calling out other members of the community. Period.

[Corvus]

In Hamilton.

From Tsn.ca

Ticketmaster starts taking deposits

Canadian Press

6/14/2007 6:19:48 PM

There's no guarantee the NHL is headed to Hamilton but that hasn't stopped hockey fans from opening their wallets.

Ticketmaster began taking deposits for "Hamilton Predators" season tickets on Thursday even though Canadian billionaire Jim Balsillie's purchase of the NHL team in Nashville has yet to be approved.

Balsillie's lawyer Richard Rodier was reluctant to comment on ticket sales when reached late Thursday afternoon, but did say that almost 60 deposits of $5,000 for corporate boxes at Copps Coliseum had been received.

Sources tell TSN that there have been more than 4700 deposits for lower bowl seats and almost 2500 deposits for upper bowl seats.

Related Info

"I've put a cut-off on the suites because we're quickly approaching selling out the suites," said Rodier, before adding: "You can take that as a reflection of interest generally."

A Ticketmaster spokesperson said it was against company policy to release information on ticket sales.

The tickets are being offered on a first-come, first-serve basis and deposits will be refunded if the team isn't moved to Hamilton by December 2009. Those who put down money can also receive a refund for any reason in the meantime.

While $5,000 is required to reserve a corporate box, a $500 deposit will get you an upper bowl seat and $1,000 is needed for a seat in the lower bowl.

"The money's perfectly safe, it's kept in a trust fund with Ticketmaster, it's refundable for any reason whatsoever at any time," said Rodier.

Ryan Salter of Guelph, Ont., split the deposit on two upper bowl tickets with three friends.

Salter, 28, is a Calgary Flames fan and often travels to see NHL games in Buffalo, where his parents had four season tickets last year.

He wasn't concerned about forking out money for a deposit because his ticket group is "in for the long haul."

If the team ends up in Hamilton, Salter wants to be a part of the action. He feels the city can support an NHL franchise.

"The NHL pre-season games are always packed when they have them there," said Salter. "I don't think I'd have any trouble getting rid of my tickets on the off chance I didn't use them myself."

Salter's parents Ward and Diane Campbell also put down deposits on four season tickets in Hamilton. He also expected that other friends would be doing the same thing.

"There's been lots of talk over e-mail," said Salter.

The problem, of course, is that the team is still very much in Nashville and not even in Balsillie's control.

The NHL's board of governors has yet to approve Balsillie's proposed purchase of the Nashville team for between US$220 million and $238 million.

Rodier has said that Hamilton is a contingency plan in case things don't work out in Nashville. Despite having one of the best teams in the NHL last year, the Predators attendance was among the worst in the league.

Hamilton has long been rumoured as a potential NHL city and has actually held a ticket drive before. More than 13,000 season tickets were sold in 1990 when Hamilton was bidding for an expansion franchise.

Even with deposits being made through Ticketmaster, this could very well be another disappointment for those eager to see an NHL team in the city.

Of course, this means nothing in terms of the Preds ability to actually move there, terrotrial problems with Toronto and Buffalo, but it is an interesting sign of the interest in the sport in Ontario.

[patsox]

And that friends, is why most hockey teams in the American South are kind of a joke. Move a few to Canada ASAP, Gary and rest of NHL...and contract a little.

[twi]

Of course they're going to put money down, there's no risk. Best case (for them) is they get an NHL team. Worst case, they get their money back. What isn't Hamilton going to do to keep people talking about them?

And has anyone realized that this team will have practically no fans of its own? With the very near proximity of Detroit, Toronto, and Buffalo (who all have very loyal fans), who is left in the area to actually care about a Hamilton team? Going to be a lot of blue and white, and blue and gold, in that arena.

[Corvus]

Of course they're going to put money down, there's no risk. Best case (for them) is they get an NHL team. Worst case, they get their money back. What isn't Hamilton going to do to keep people talking about them?

And has anyone realized that this team will have practically no fans of its own? With the very near proximity of Detroit, Toronto, and Buffalo (who all have very loyal fans), who is left in the area to actually care about a Hamilton team? Going to be a lot of blue and white, and blue and gold, in that arena.

Wait until the leaf fans realize what a superior hockey team the preds are.

[CC97]

And has anyone realized that this team will have practically no fans of its own? With the very near proximity of Detroit, Toronto, and Buffalo (who all have very loyal fans), who is left in the area to actually care about a Hamilton team? Going to be a lot of blue and white, and blue and gold, in that arena.

You are right there will be a lot of blue and white... but only when the leafs are playing there.

I have a local Hamilton channel and they interviewed a lot of people in the city asking if they would support a local team over the Leafs and all of them said in a heartbeat -- of course it could really mean nothing, and selective editing, etc, but you know what i mean

[jkrdevil]

And that friends, is why most hockey teams in the American South are kind of a joke. Move a few to Canada ASAP, Gary and rest of NHL...and contract a little.

So because a guy wants to buy a team and move them closer to him and his company for mostly non-hockey related reasons is why hockey won't work in the South? Instead of making broad stupid statements try to look up information about the situation. I'm not saying hockey was been a resounding success in Nashville but this is a case where someone wants a team (any team) in a certain location. He tried this with Pittsburgh where the team has been well supported.

Back to the situation in hand, this means nothing. Saskatoon tried to do with this with the Blues and got 18,000 season ticket deposits and the move (and new ownership) was blocked by the NHL (granted Hamilton is not Saskatoon). Still word is that a few owners (who are not Buffalo and Toronto who would have their own objection) are not liking Balsillies tactics and feel he may be an out of control owner. This could further hurt Balsillies chances of actually being able to buy the team. Also obviously Nashville will fight hard to keep the Preds and not let them out of their lease. Even with a poor attendance the team and arena there has brought in people to the downtown area which has helped the economy. If the Preds attendance does in deed drop below 14,000 next year it looks like the council will buy up the difference to keep the team. Also there is a current dispute between the city and Predators on when the team can invoke that clause. So it may be 2 years before he could possibly move the team (if attendance falls short and the city let's him out).

I also read there is a local group ready to make an offer for the team if the Balsillie deal through (they can't make a formal offer while his deal is going through the process).

This is far from over.

[Viper]

The Sabres don't seem to be worried about the prospect of the Preds moving to Hamilton, not yet anyway.

Considering how closely the Preds' current color scheme resembles the Sabres, if they end up in Hamilton a uniform/logo redesign is a foregone conclusion, if not a nickname change as well. I'm thinking they'll try to avoid either blue or red as a primary color, to distinguish themselves from their neighbors as much as possible.

[FiddySicks]

And that friends, is why most hockey teams in the American South are kind of a joke. Move a few to Canada ASAP, Gary and rest of NHL...and contract a little.

I think you severely underestimate hockey in the south. despite its overall interest compaired to the north, yo can't deny the strenght and stablitiy it gives the league. Moving teams from there and contracting them would make the NHL even more of an unwatched bore. The goal in ay business is to spread, not narrow. Moving teams from the south or contracting them would tear the league apart. But then again, Bettman IS the commish..........

[Phil]

Having carefully read all of the arguments in this thread, weighing the different viewpoints against one another, meticulously dissecting rhetoric and critically analyzing premises and conclusions, I have boiled my thoughts down to two statements:

1. "As if I needed another reason to hate Hamilton."

2. "Bring back the Jets!"

Thank you, you may continue taking Hamilton season ticket deposits. May the Tiger-Cats forever flounder in the basement of the East Division.

[STL FANATIC]

IceCap,

I did not ignore anything, nor did I say I ignored anything.

I merely implied that if your approach is simply to state opinion as facts that leave no room for the opinions of others, than the issue is not worth discussing with you.

I read the rest of your post and disagreed and almost responded. But those first two sentence told me the response would be absolutely meaningless to you.

If you wish to hear it though, and because you've reiterated that part in a second post, I'll give it to you.

It breaks down to a few facts.

The first of which is that Nashville was, for all intents and purposes, completely new to the game of hockey. This mid-tier market was going to have to come from complete scratch and compete with a few beloved sports in NFL football, college football, and NASCAR. This market was going to have to be built; very few people were going to start being fans just because a team was there.

For the first five seasons the team ranged from horrendous to bad. The organization built itself, hockeywise, in a fantastic manner, but they weren't about to turn people onto the game of hockey just because they were building the team the right way, the patient way.

In season six they finally snuck into the playoffs. But a mildly good season wasn't just suddenly going to make everyone in town start buying tickets. A decent playoff run maybe, but they lost in six games.

Then came the lockout. The lockout and an ownership change crushed hockey in St. Louis, a well established market. To a market that hadn't even had a chance to grow? Devastating. Erases anything the one playoff season did and more.

On the ice, though, the team comes back from the lockout in fine shape and has its best season. And the fanbase does respond with a good chunk of growth. But as the team flops out in the first round, there's really no bandwagon to be had, and the growth is limited.

And in season eight (on the ice), the team was even better. They competed for the President's Trophy. And this too came with some growth. But, yet again, the playoffs ended in the first round and growth and excitement were limited.

I just don't see where you can reasonably expect (or at least be completely surprised that it didn't happen) a brand new market to the game of hockey to respond to that limited success. Because of the lockout you've got basically two winning seasons to build off of, and they both came with not just first round defeats, but first round disappointments.

You keep saying that contending for the Presidents trophy should have brought bandwagoners, but I just don't believe that. Seasons like that bring fair-weather fans out of the woodwork. They rarely create brand new fans. Post-season success creates new fans. Sports is all about the post-season. And Nashville hasn't won a single round of post-season play.

But they're primed for more growth right now. They've still got a team that can contend for a top seed in the playoffs, and thus a team that can be expected to win some rounds in the playoffs.

They've got the hockey growth in the area outside of the Predators ready to pay off soon.*

And now, they've got a bonus that can grow this market faster. They've got a threat to step up and get to the games or lose their team. People who would otherwise MAYBE call it "their" team are now going to start backing it, perhaps for the very wrong reasons, and end up falling in love and have it truly become THEIR team.

And corporate support is going to follow right along with these things at corporations support things that their potential patrons will support.

*-You've said before that a kid who was 10 when the Preds came is now moving out of the house. You've said if he's not a fan now he never will be. First off, while that's not necessarily true at all, it also doesn't mean much. I moved out of the house last year. Do you know how much money I have to spend on going to Blues games or buying any merchandise that would be of any note or anything like that? VERY LITTLE. Those types of fans won't really come in the picture until at least another 5-10 years when they've got a solid paying job and can afford to go to purchase tickets and what not. That's another reason why 10 years simply isn't enough time for some markets to be tested.

My argument has very little to do with Hamilton at all. I think there's questions about corporate support and a new arena, but I wouldn't rule it out as viable. Similarly, I don't blindly accept that they'd sell out every game forever no matter what the record of the team was. History says when Canadian teams struggle, sometimes so do their fanbases. Now, that's true, maybe more true in America, I'm just saying that the idea that they'll always sell out isn't something I put much stock in.

But overall, it's not really about Hamilton at all for me.

The point is that 10 years ago the NHL chose to attempt to build a market in Nashville. They've made great strides and still have plenty of room to grow and very much could. Pulling the plug now and calling the market a failure already would be a very big mistake in my opinion.

And has anyone realized that this team will have practically no fans of its own? With the very near proximity of Detroit, Toronto, and Buffalo (who all have very loyal fans), who is left in the area to actually care about a Hamilton team? Going to be a lot of blue and white, and blue and gold, in that arena.

You are right there will be a lot of blue and white... but only when the leafs are playing there.

I have a local Hamilton channel and they interviewed a lot of people in the city asking if they would support a local team over the Leafs and all of them said in a heartbeat -- of course it could really mean nothing, and selective editing, etc, but you know what i mean

So than they're not real Leafs fans?

NOW I'M JUST BEING A SARCASTIC PUNK. PLEASE DON'T ANYONE TAKE THAT SERIOUSLY OR OFFENSIVE.

[gojetsgo]

And that friends, is why most hockey teams in the American South are kind of a joke. Move a few to Canada ASAP, Gary and rest of NHL...and contract a little.

I think you severely underestimate hockey in the south. despite its overall interest compaired to the north, yo can't deny the strenght and stablitiy it gives the league. Moving teams from there and contracting them would make the NHL even more of an unwatched bore. The goal in ay business is to spread, not narrow. Moving teams from the south or contracting them would tear the league apart. But then again, Bettman IS the commish..........

Another way of looking at it:

Moving NHL teams north is like moving your ice manufacturing and distribution centre from Nunavut to Arizona. Eskimos...errr...Inuit want hot coffee and blankets (not ice) just like Nashvillians want football and NASCAR (not hockey). Bad analogy, maybe, but you get my point.

Contracting teams - i agree it is a bad idea as it makes the league look very unstable. However, moving teams to hockey starved communities (like the kind that haven't been able to get tickets to Leafs games in years) may in fact be a great idea that will strengthen the league. Make the NHL even more of an unwatched bore? The NHL had better ratings in the US when there were two more Canadian teams and six less American ones. When are people going to let go of the dream that more southern teams does not translate into television success?

Unlike Phil though, I haven't made up my mind if I'm going to hate a Hamilton-based NHL team. I'll probably show indifference just like I do for the lowly Ti-Cats. How can you hate a team that sucks so bad? I put all my energy into hating the Riders, Eskies, and Alouettes. I have only so much hate to go around you know.

And for the second point: "Bring back the Jets." Damn F'N straight! Maybe if we say it enough times it will just spontaneously happen.

[DEAD!]

Having carefully read all of the arguments in this thread, weighing the different viewpoints against one another, meticulously dissecting rhetoric and critically analyzing premises and conclusions, I have boiled my thoughts down to two statements:

1. "As if I needed another reason to hate Hamilton."

2. "Bring back the Jets!"

Thank you, you may continue taking Hamilton season ticket deposits. May the Tiger-Cats forever flounder in the basement of the East Division.

Are you sure you're from Winnipeg? Because those are things that a Torontonian would say

[CC97]

And has anyone realized that this team will have practically no fans of its own? With the very near proximity of Detroit, Toronto, and Buffalo (who all have very loyal fans), who is left in the area to actually care about a Hamilton team? Going to be a lot of blue and white, and blue and gold, in that arena.

You are right there will be a lot of blue and white... but only when the leafs are playing there.

I have a local Hamilton channel and they interviewed a lot of people in the city asking if they would support a local team over the Leafs and all of them said in a heartbeat -- of course it could really mean nothing, and selective editing, etc, but you know what i mean

So than they're not real Leafs fans?

NOW I'M JUST BEING A SARCASTIC PUNK. PLEASE DON'T ANYONE TAKE THAT SERIOUSLY OR OFFENSIVE.

We need a different kind of "sarcasm" emoticon, the big bold letters aren't appealing

I wouldn't say they're not "real leafs fans", it may not be known to those who don't follow the CFL (the league, not the light bulbs) but Hamilton and Toronto have a very intense rivalry - to me it sounds like the fine smelly folks of Hamilton are just preparing for that rivalry to enter the NHL (They're smelly but I'm sure most of them shower... I blame all those factories )

[Frenchie]

You all really expect Leaf fans to go to Hamilton games because they can't get Leafs tickets? Seriously?

Toronto hockey fans barely go to AHL or OHL games, why would they support a rival of the Leafs?

Do not confuse teh "LEAF Nation" with HOCKEY FANS.

As a matter of fact, very few actually care for HOCKEY.

The real hockey fans from the GTA are people who grew up anywhere outside the city like Peterborough, Oshawa, Windsor, Kingston, Montreal, etc. and these people will drive an hour to see Crosby play against Kariya. Unlike the suits at the ACC who won't even come out of the bar to see Kowalchuk play...

There are Plenty of real hockey fans who'll make this move an automatic success that will benefit both the Leafs and the Sabres.

I think this story seems to support my theory.

[IceCap]

It breaks down to a few facts.

The first of which is that Nashville was, for all intents and purposes, completely new to the game of hockey. This mid-tier market was going to have to come from complete scratch and compete with a few beloved sports in NFL football, college football, and NASCAR. This market was going to have to be built; very few people were going to start being fans just because a team was there.

For the first five seasons the team ranged from horrendous to bad. The organization built itself, hockeywise, in a fantastic manner, but they weren't about to turn people onto the game of hockey just because they were building the team the right way, the patient way.

In season six they finally snuck into the playoffs. But a mildly good season wasn't just suddenly going to make everyone in town start buying tickets. A decent playoff run maybe, but they lost in six games.

Then came the lockout. The lockout and an ownership change crushed hockey in St. Louis, a well established market. To a market that hadn't even had a chance to grow? Devastating. Erases anything the one playoff season did and more.

On the ice, though, the team comes back from the lockout in fine shape and has its best season. And the fanbase does respond with a good chunk of growth. But as the team flops out in the first round, there's really no bandwagon to be had, and the growth is limited.

And in season eight (on the ice), the team was even better. They competed for the President's Trophy. And this too came with some growth. But, yet again, the playoffs ended in the first round and growth and excitement were limited.

I just don't see where you can reasonably expect (or at least be completely surprised that it didn't happen) a brand new market to the game of hockey to respond to that limited success. Because of the lockout you've got basically two winning seasons to build off of, and they both came with not just first round defeats, but first round disappointments.

You keep saying that contending for the Presidents trophy should have brought bandwagoners, but I just don't believe that. Seasons like that bring fair-weather fans out of the woodwork. They rarely create brand new fans. Post-season success creates new fans. Sports is all about the post-season. And Nashville hasn't won a single round of post-season play.

The Lockout hurt a lot of teams, you said it yourself, an established team with a strong fanbase like the Blues felt it. If you want to know the team that was hurt the most by it though you have to look no further then the Tampa Bay Lightning. Since the lockout counted as a season as far as contracts went the Lightning lost a few key players that were instrumental in a successful Cup defence season, most notably Nikolai Khabibulin. If there's no lockout the Lightning keep him, as well as a few supporting players, and their chances at a repeat greatly increase. To the credit of Lightning fans I haven't heard any of them claim they were cheated or robbed, even though if they did claim as such they would have a very good case. If any team was hurt by the lockout it was them.

Anyway, I do see your point. Up until this (just past) season the Preds had been a mildly successful team with two first round exists.

Still, though, I maintain my belief that the success during the '06-'07 season should have at the very least brought out the bandwaggoners. Again, look to the Lightning. They year they won the Cup they finished first in the East. During that great season, going into the playoffs, they had no idea they were going to win the Cup. They were favourites to be sure, but their past playoff history was less then convincing. Two playoff appearances, one first round knock-out, one second round knock-out. Not as bad as the Preds' playoff record before the start of the '06-'07 season, I know, but still, it's nothing to to get excited over.

Then they had a great season, shot to the top of the east, and stayed there. They had a less then steller playoff history, but fans still came. Now I firmly believe that most of those fans were bandwaggoners, at first. After a few games they fell in love with the game and made the shift from bandwaggoners to real fans. Again, despite the team's place in the standings, their Cup victory was far from guaranteed.

This season, look at the Preds. Same thing. Less then steller playoff record, but they shot to the top and went toe-to-toe with the league's best. Some people were even saying they would represent the West in the Finals. Like in Tampa during the '03-'04 season you had a team playing kick-ass hockey, yet no real guarantee that they would go anywhere. The difference is that during the '03-'04 season the Lightning drew in bandwaggon fans and made them hockey converts. The Preds failed to do this during the '06-'07 season. What's the difference? Unlike in Tampa there was no general interest in hockey for the club's success to "feed" off of. You need that general interest to bring in the bandwaggoners.

You need fair weather fans to build a fanbase in a non-traditional hockey market. Otherwise you'll never build a true fanbase. Northern transplants will only take you so far, and a good portion of them still root for their old home town team over the current local team. You need your on-ice success to draw in the fair weather fans, and then convert them to true fans with a good on-ice product. If you can't draw in fair weather fans with a great team near the top of the standings then the market isn't ready for NHL level hockey.

Also, FTR, Tampa, like Nashville, had no connection to the sport prior to the pro team showing up.

But they're primed for more growth right now. They've still got a team that can contend for a top seed in the playoffs, and thus a team that can be expected to win some rounds in the playoffs.

They've got the hockey growth in the area outside of the Predators ready to pay off soon.*

And now, they've got a bonus that can grow this market faster. They've got a threat to step up and get to the games or lose their team. People who would otherwise MAYBE call it "their" team are now going to start backing it, perhaps for the very wrong reasons, and end up falling in love and have it truly become THEIR team.

And corporate support is going to follow right along with these things at corporations support things that their potential patrons will support.

This is where I disagree. The failure of the team to draw in fans during their great season shows me that as a community Nashville isn't a viable NHL market. I'm looking at their past, and I see no indication that they'll improve upon their attendance figures and level of local corporate support. The novelty of the save the Preds movement might keep them in town, provided they keep up an elite level of play, and then after that it'll evaporate.

you obviously disagree, but in the end neither one of us will convince the other, mostly due to neither of us presenting more then our opinions. Neither of us can prove our points. I'm just using their past attendance figures and levels of corporate support to base my opinion on.

*-You've said before that a kid who was 10 when the Preds came is now moving out of the house. You've said if he's not a fan now he never will be. First off, while that's not necessarily true at all, it also doesn't mean much. I moved out of the house last year. Do you know how much money I have to spend on going to Blues games or buying any merchandise that would be of any note or anything like that? VERY LITTLE. Those types of fans won't really come in the picture until at least another 5-10 years when they've got a solid paying job and can afford to go to purchase tickets and what not. That's another reason why 10 years simply isn't enough time for some markets to be tested.

The point I was making is that at 19 years old, the kid probably isn't a Preds fan, due to the fact that he grew up in a market that has so far treated the team as a sideshow. Now you want to wait 5-10 years to see if he is or isn't interested in hockey. What if he's not? As I said above both our opinions on the matter can't be proven. So you say 5-10 years is long enough? What then? Say I'm right and the team still struggles to get support from the community. Are you going to lobby for an other 5-10 more years just so they can round out the numbers?

The current NHL doesn't have 5-10 years to gamble on a gamble. They can't afford to risk keeping the team in a market that has so far proven to be a mistake for an other decade. So then what, considering the team is still strong enough to relocate, are you going to push for more time?

My argument has very little to do with Hamilton at all. I think there's questions about corporate support and a new arena, but I wouldn't rule it out as viable. Similarly, I don't blindly accept that they'd sell out every game forever no matter what the record of the team was. History says when Canadian teams struggle, sometimes so do their fanbases. Now, that's true, maybe more true in America, I'm just saying that the idea that they'll always sell out isn't something I put much stock in.

As someone from the southern Ontario region, let me assure you that corporate support isn't a problem. Also, if they land the Preds the current Copps Coliseum would serve a role like the Cow Palace did for the Sharks. The team would play in the CC for a season or two while a new arena is built. Even then, the CC, though it may be old, is far from unsuitable by NHL standards.

As for the fans, yes fanbases do sometimes struggle when the team does, but much more rarely then south of the border. The Leafs haven't made the playoffs in two seasons, and haven't won a Cup since 1967 (talk about playoff futility), and they still sell out night after night. The same can be said across Canada, the teams sell out almost nightly, and when the fanbases do struggle they still draw considerably better then the Preds currently draw in Nashville with a winning team.

Then you factor in that they (Hamilton), as well as southern Ontario in general, have been unable to see the Leafs in person in ages (I've been to one Leafs game in Toronto in my life). The area is ripe for an other hockey team.

In short, if you're questioning the stability of Canadian hockey fans, especially compared to those in Nashville, there's no comparison. You put a team in Hamilton, it'll flourish.

But overall, it's not really about Hamilton at all for me.

So I take it should the Preds still draw lacklustre crowds for 5-10 more years, or if an other team was interested in relocating, or if the NHL wanted to expand again, you would have no problem with the prospect of a Hamilton team?

The point is that 10 years ago the NHL chose to attempt to build a market in Nashville. They've made great strides and still have plenty of room to grow and very much could. Pulling the plug now and calling the market a failure already would be a very big mistake in my opinion.

And I say whatever support the team has now, it's more or less peaked, and pulling the plug now will only speed up a decision that will be made in 5-10 years anyway. Again, your point is nothing but an opinion, just as mine is.

And has anyone realized that this team will have practically no fans of its own? With the very near proximity of Detroit, Toronto, and Buffalo (who all have very loyal fans), who is left in the area to actually care about a Hamilton team? Going to be a lot of blue and white, and blue and gold, in that arena.

You are right there will be a lot of blue and white... but only when the leafs are playing there.

I have a local Hamilton channel and they interviewed a lot of people in the city asking if they would support a local team over the Leafs and all of them said in a heartbeat -- of course it could really mean nothing, and selective editing, etc, but you know what i mean

So than they're not real Leafs fans?

NOW I'M JUST BEING A SARCASTIC PUNK. PLEASE DON'T ANYONE TAKE THAT SERIOUSLY OR OFFENSIVE.

Sarcasm aside, I wouldn't say they aren't real Leafs fans as much as they're hockey fans in Hamilton who currently root for the closest local team, the Toronto Maple Leafs. If Hamilton doesn't get a team I expect they'll continue to root for the Leafs. Still, never underestimate a team in your home town. If a team was put in Kitchener-Waterloo I would seriously consider, and I just might, dump the Leafs in favour for the team playing out of my home region.

Now, to a point BiB brought up a while ago. One of his points was that even if a move to Hamilton would be in the best interests of the club, the NHL's top dogs would oppose it regardless as it would weaken the perception of the league in the minds of American sports fans. Well, I have an answer.

Say the Preds end up in Hamilton. The NHL then works to get expansion deals signed for both KC and Houston. So while you may have one team moving to a Canadian market, you have two new ones popping up in huge American tv markets. PR problem solved.

[Ez Street]

Preds aren't going to Hamilton. The Board of Govenors already detest "Bald silly".

Expect him to bail out like he did with the Pens.

I wouldn't be surprised if Boots DelBaggio comes swooping in to buy the team.

Then Bruckhiemer can get Vegas a team and the league can add Houston.

[DDR]

Preds aren't going to Hamilton. The Board of Govenors already detest "Bald silly".

Expect him to bail out like he did with the Pens.

I wouldn't be surprised if Boots DelBaggio comes swooping in to buy the team.

Then Bruckhiemer can get Vegas a team and the league can add Houston.

Good enough for me. Next topic.

[Broken Record]

We can all argue until we're blue in the face (and some of us already have) about how our region is the best hockey market for the Predators, but if Nashville averages 14k this season or if the city makes up the difference it's all a waste of time.