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Pac-10 Expansion


AJM

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Every now and then I hear rumblings (both pro and con) for expansion of the Pac-10 conference. Below I have included a few links on the subject, but I am very interested in what the CCSLC thinks about this matter. For every person that I talk to about the subject that thinks the Pac-10 should expand, another is against it...basically 50/50 is what I have experienced. As an ASU alum, current grad student, and employee, the subject is an interesting one.

In regards to expansion (becoming the Pac-12), I've read and heard arguments/considerations for the following schools:

Boise State, Utah, BYU, Hawaii, Fresno State, Nevada, and UNLV. For the sake of discussion, lets focus on athletics rather than whether or not these schools academically align with the PAC-10.

On the other side friends have shared that the Pac-10 (mainly for Football), should stay at 10 teams, but remove the 9th conference game from the schedule, thus only playing 8 conference games, which lowers the number of possible conference losses from 45 to 40*spread out among the 10 teams.

So, what do you think?

http://www.fanblogs.com/pac10/007582.php

http://www.blocku.com/2008/7/7/566373/pac-...nsion-forthcomi

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Every now and then I hear rumblings (both pro and con) for expansion of the Pac-10 conference. Below I have included a few links on the subject, but I am very interested in what the CCSLC thinks about this matter. For every person that I talk to about the subject that thinks the Pac-10 should expand, another is against it...basically 50/50 is what I have experienced. As an ASU alum, current grad student, and employee, the subject is an interesting one.

In regards to expansion (becoming the Pac-12), I've read and heard arguments/considerations for the following schools:

Boise State, Utah, BYU, Hawaii, Fresno State, Nevada, and UNLV. For the sake of discussion, lets focus on athletics rather than whether or not these schools academically align with the PAC-10.

On the other side friends have shared that the Pac-10 (mainly for Football), should stay at 10 teams, but remove the 9th conference game from the schedule, thus only playing 8 conference games, which lowers the number of possible conference losses from 45 to 40*spread out among the 10 teams.

So, what do you think?

http://www.fanblogs.com/pac10/007582.php

http://www.blocku.com/2008/7/7/566373/pac-...nsion-forthcomi

I think you have to include academics in any discussion about conference expansion. One of the reasons the Big 10 and Pac-8 conferences were arranged in the first place was because of similar academic characteristics and membership standards.

But I think that the ONLY schools the PAC-10 should consider would be BYU and Utah. These are both big, big name, big prestige schools.

Hawaii is an outside shot, just based on the size of the university, but the travel costs would be their biggest restriction for inclusion.

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Personally, I am against it. Since you are not allowing for academic standards to be used when discussing a portion of higher education, then I will only focus on media size. None of those listed are in the top 30. Salt Lake City is the highest at around 34-36 depending on the source. Las Vegas is barely top 50.

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Every now and then I hear rumblings (both pro and con) for expansion of the Pac-10 conference. Below I have included a few links on the subject, but I am very interested in what the CCSLC thinks about this matter. For every person that I talk to about the subject that thinks the Pac-10 should expand, another is against it...basically 50/50 is what I have experienced. As an ASU alum, current grad student, and employee, the subject is an interesting one.

In regards to expansion (becoming the Pac-12), I've read and heard arguments/considerations for the following schools:

Boise State, Utah, BYU, Hawaii, Fresno State, Nevada, and UNLV. For the sake of discussion, lets focus on athletics rather than whether or not these schools academically align with the PAC-10.

On the other side friends have shared that the Pac-10 (mainly for Football), should stay at 10 teams, but remove the 9th conference game from the schedule, thus only playing 8 conference games, which lowers the number of possible conference losses from 45 to 40*spread out among the 10 teams.

So, what do you think?

http://www.fanblogs.com/pac10/007582.php

http://www.blocku.com/2008/7/7/566373/pac-...nsion-forthcomi

I think you have to include academics in any discussion about conference expansion. One of the reasons the Big 10 and Pac-8 conferences were arranged in the first place was because of similar academic characteristics and membership standards.

But I think that the ONLY schools the PAC-10 should consider would be BYU and Utah. These are both big, big name, big prestige schools.

Hawaii is an outside shot, just based on the size of the university, but the travel costs would be their biggest restriction for inclusion.

I agree that academics are an equally important aspect of this conversation and is one of the main reasons the Pac-10 hasn't already done so. I also agree, when academics are factored in, that only Utah and BYU come close. Academics seem to eliminate Boise St. from the conversation even though I'd love to see them in the conference. Hopefully some Boise state fans weigh in on this topic.

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The thing about the Pac-10 is that each team has a local rival in the conference. So, I wouldn't see Hawaii making it because that would really mess with scheduling. I would honestly give a slight edge to UNLV and UNR right now, since they would form the 6th rivalry in the conference, plus with Nevada being on Pacific time, it would be much easier for scheduling and TV time.

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Just based on athletic programs, I'd say Utah and BYU would be the best all-around options. They have some consistency in the level of basketball and football, the 2 premier sports of the conference. And academically, they fit too (I assume. Someone else with better knowledge can discredit me if they'd like) Boise State's great in football, but not so much in basketball. Hawaii kinda falls under that as well. UNLV is pretty much only a basketball school, not football. Utah and BYU typically at least have some quality programs in both sports. Plus, they come in as a natural rivalry, like most other combinations in the Pac-10.

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The thing about the Pac-10 is that each team has a local rival in the conference. So, I wouldn't see Hawaii making it because that would really mess with scheduling. I would honestly give a slight edge to UNLV and UNR right now, since they would form the 6th rivalry in the conference, plus with Nevada being on Pacific time, it would be much easier for scheduling and TV time.

May I draw your attention to the "Holy War" between BYU and Utah?

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If the Pac 10 expands UNLV and Hawaii would be the best choice.

And your reasons why are???

AJM, the issue with BYU is that is by an extreme percentage, an undergraduate school only. It is not research based.

Boise State only offered four doctoral programs as late as 2006. And remember that until they defeated Oregon this season, their football team did not win a road gave verses a Pac 10 opponent. I don't even know how many other "Olympic" sports they would have to add to even be seen as viable. That might be the case for most of these schools mentioned as their budgets should not be that great. I will have to check the DOE for stats, but the highest budget is proabaly Utah or UNLV and they should rank in the bottom third in terms of Pac 10 spending.

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Hawaii has been happy with the WAC for so many years that a possible change would be a near fatal blow to the WAC. So, in my mind, Hawaii wouldn't work for a possible Pac-10 expansion plan. You also have to bring up the travel costs and with the economy crapping out, it wouldn't work out.

Throwing out the academic need, I'd say the best choices are Idaho and Boise State.

Why? Well, LMU pointed out the need for natural rivalries, and Idaho-Boise State is a natural, albeit one sided, rivalry.

Another reason is that the divisions are now easily split.

North:

-Boise State

-Idaho

-Oregon

-Oregon State

-Washington

-Washington State

South:

-Arizona

-Arizona State

-California

-UCLA

-USC

-Stanford

Pretty simple, no?

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Hawaii has been happy with the WAC for so many years that a possible change would be a near fatal blow to the WAC. So, in my mind, Hawaii wouldn't work for a possible Pac-10 expansion plan. You also have to bring up the travel costs and with the economy crapping out, it wouldn't work out.

Throwing out the academic need, I'd say the best choices are Idaho and Boise State.

Why? Well, LMU pointed out the need for natural rivalries, and Idaho-Boise State is a natural, albeit one sided, rivalry.

Another reason is that the divisions are now easily split.

North:

-Boise State

-Idaho

-Oregon

-Oregon State

-Washington

-Washington State

South:

-Arizona

-Arizona State

-California

-UCLA

-USC

-Stanford

Pretty simple, no?

You can easily swap Idaho-Boise State for Utah-BYU, and they're much better, bigger programs than Idaho. Seriously, Idaho in the Pac-10? Well, I'm sure Washington/Washingston State would be happy.

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There's also a history part to my logic here. Idaho was once a member of the PCC, the forerunner of today's Pac-10, from 1922 to 1959 [that year would be the end of the PCC and the formation of the AAWU, which would be later known as the Pac-8 and then Pac-10]

Yes, I see your point McCall. You could swap out those two for Utah-BYU, but isn't Utah a little far out of the fanbase for the Pac-10 schools?

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There's also a history part to my logic here. Idaho was once a member of the PCC, the forerunner of today's Pac-10, from 1922 to 1959 [that year would be the end of the PCC and the formation of the AAWU, which would be later known as the Pac-8 and then Pac-10]

Yes, I see your point McCall. You could swap out those two for Utah-BYU, but isn't Utah a little far out of the fanbase for the Pac-10 schools?

It's sits right on top of the state of Arizona. Yeah, I know it cuts in at Southern California, but I thinks it's still within a possible Pac-10 region. And in college, as shown with the C-USA that goes from the east coast all the way over to Texas, geographical alignment isn't their top priority. It's quality of athletic programs (and I guess academia, too).

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The problem with Utah/BYU is that they'd be a bit off on their own island, adding to travel costs. Boise St/Idaho or UNLV/Nevada would at least be in states already bordering Pac-10 states.

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The problem with Utah/BYU is that they'd be a bit off on their own island, adding to travel costs. Boise St/Idaho or UNLV/Nevada would at least be in states already bordering Pac-10 states.

Utah borders Arizona. :D

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As I am bored, I did look up some information from the Department of Education's Office of Postsecondary Education (OPE). All schools basically have to disclose their scholarship numbers and budget information in regards to athletics. The Equity in Athletics Disclosure Act requires co-educational institutions of postsecondary education that participate in a Title IV, federal student financial assistance program, and have an intercollegiate athletic program, to prepare an annual report to the Department of Education on athletic participation, staffing, and revenues and expenses, by men's and women's teams.

I did not look at all Pac 10 schools, but I assumed that Washington State would have the smallest budget (in terms of expenses) overall. There are $36M for 2007. Other Pac 10 schools I looked up were Oregon State at $46M, UCLA at $66M, and Stanford at $76M.

BYU has a similar budget to Washington State, but Utah and UNLV is at $32M and Boise is around $26M.

Equity in Athletics Data Tools

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If the Pac 10 expands UNLV and Hawaii would be the best choice.

If UNLV gets the Pac 10 nod over Nevada, there's something seriously wrong. Nevada athletics are far superior to UNLV athletics. Neither or worthy though, they'd both become the next Duke or Temple in football.

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If UNLV gets the Pac 10 nod over Nevada, there's something seriously wrong. Nevada athletics are far superior to UNLV athletics. Neither or worthy though, they'd both become the next Duke or Temple in football.

Perhaps, but let's be real about this - if/when the Pac 10 ever becomes the Pac 12, money will be the chief motivating factor. The money from bringing two more potential television markets into the fold to be sure, but moreso the money a Pac 12 championship football game at the L.A. Coliseum or Rose Bowl would generate every year.

That said, BYU and UNLV are your most likely candidates. Utah might be bigger in terms of athletics right now, but BYU would ultimately bring in more money as they have a more dedicated alumni pool (religious-based institutions often do). UNLV taps into the Las Vegas television market, which is growing rapidly. So if there were to be an expansion, from among the schools originally listed those are the two I'd think most likely.

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