2012 NFL Season Thread

[pmoehrin]

Always thought Dick Allen was pretty beloved in Philly. I mean Richie. Allen always wanted to be called Richie.

Think he got booed in the second game of a doubleheader after hitting a game winning home run in the first game.

In terms of most beloved and least criticised player in Philly sports history during their playing career I would have to agree with Bobby Clarke. His tenure as a GM is a different story, but Bobby Clarke the player I think was about as appreciated as you can get in Philly which isn't saying much. Would also throw Duce Staley up there as well as an honorable mention. Average starting running back, but I never heard anything negative about him from Philly fans and I thought he was as popular if not more popular then anybody on the Eagles roster when he was there.

Alot of guys played there never got the credit they deserved. Schmidt, McNabb, Barkley, Chamberlain, Erving, Randall Cunningham. Never understood the Philly fans mentality and never will.

[BBTV]

Always thought Dick Allen was pretty beloved in Philly. I mean Richie. Allen always wanted to be called Richie.

Think he got booed in the second game of a doubleheader after hitting a game winning home run in the first game.

In terms of most beloved and least criticised player in Philly sports history during their playing career I would have to agree with Bobby Clarke. His tenure as a GM is a different story, but Bobby Clarke the player I think was about as appreciated as you can get in Philly which isn't saying much.

Alot of guys played there never got the credit they deserved. Schmidt, McNabb, Barkley, Chamberlain, Erving, Randall Cunningham. Never understood the Philly fans mentality and never will.

Clarke wore out his welcome as a GM, and embarrassed the franchise with how he dealt with the Lindros situation. Sure people love him from his playing days, but things change. If Brian Dawkins ever became Eagles coach and turned out to be a total dope and said some stupid things, then my assessment would change there as well.

Chamberlain does get all the credit he deerves. He gets a ton of credit, and is certainly loved. But despite being a local kid and playing for the Sixers and Warriors, he's really a Laker. Still, he's certainly in the conversation, along with Dr. J. Highschool and college bball is huge around here - it almost doesn't matter where you play pro. There's a big Earl Monroe contingent in these parts as well.

As for the other guys, you're just going to have to accept that (as in all cities) there are a lot of things that are said or observed that you just miss when you're not actually in that area. I'm sure there's good players that aren't liked in Cleveland or Boston that I'd be like "how could they hate him?" but I'm not watching every (or, practically any) of their games or listening to their interviews or coverage.

[Sport]

The Bengals are 3-1, which is exactly where I thought they'd be when I looked at the schedule before the season. Ideally, I'd like them to be 5-2 or even 6-1 if everything goes right heading into their bye week because after that, the schedule gets tougher.

[pmoehrin]

Always thought Dick Allen was pretty beloved in Philly. I mean Richie. Allen always wanted to be called Richie.

Think he got booed in the second game of a doubleheader after hitting a game winning home run in the first game.

In terms of most beloved and least criticised player in Philly sports history during their playing career I would have to agree with Bobby Clarke. His tenure as a GM is a different story, but Bobby Clarke the player I think was about as appreciated as you can get in Philly which isn't saying much.

Alot of guys played there never got the credit they deserved. Schmidt, McNabb, Barkley, Chamberlain, Erving, Randall Cunningham. Never understood the Philly fans mentality and never will.

Clarke wore out his welcome as a GM, and embarrassed the franchise with how he dealt with the Lindros situation. Sure people love him from his playing days, but things change. If Brian Dawkins ever became Eagles coach and turned out to be a total dope and said some stupid things, then my assessment would change there as well.

Chamberlain does get all the credit he deerves. He gets a ton of credit, and is certainly loved. But despite being a local kid and playing for the Sixers and Warriors, he's really a Laker. Still, he's certainly in the conversation, along with Dr. J. Highschool and college bball is huge around here - it almost doesn't matter where you play pro. There's a big Earl Monroe contingent in these parts as well.

As for the other guys, you're just going to have to accept that (as in all cities) there are a lot of things that are said or observed that you just miss when you're not actually in that area. I'm sure there's good players that aren't liked in Cleveland or Boston that I'd be like "how could they hate him?" but I'm not watching every (or, practically any) of their games or listening to their interviews or coverage.

I may have mispoken a little about Chamberlain, and what you said about Monroe is certainly true as well.

But in terms of other cities, Philly is the only one I know that reguarly gets criticized for this. You can find examples in other cities. Maris would probably be the most famous example in New York. Boston has kind of this good riddance attitude whenever anyone leaves now with maybe the exception of Ray Bourque. Can't speak much in regards to Chicago.

But Philly is just a different breed of fan. I think alot of fans have a very set idea for what they want their teams to play like and be like, and if they don't do that, its almost as bad as losing because your not playing the game "the right way." I'm also generalizing alot here as well. Every fanbase has good fans and aholes. Its just with Philly the aholes seem to be in greater numbers.

Also would like to throw Joe Fraizer in the mix as well in terms of beloved Philly athletes.

[infrared41]

Always thought Dick Allen was pretty beloved in Philly. I mean Richie. Allen always wanted to be called Richie.

You've got it backward. He didn't like being called Richie. Richie was a name given to him by the media.

[BBTV]

Always thought Dick Allen was pretty beloved in Philly. I mean Richie. Allen always wanted to be called Richie.

Think he got booed in the second game of a doubleheader after hitting a game winning home run in the first game.

In terms of most beloved and least criticised player in Philly sports history during their playing career I would have to agree with Bobby Clarke. His tenure as a GM is a different story, but Bobby Clarke the player I think was about as appreciated as you can get in Philly which isn't saying much.

Alot of guys played there never got the credit they deserved. Schmidt, McNabb, Barkley, Chamberlain, Erving, Randall Cunningham. Never understood the Philly fans mentality and never will.

Clarke wore out his welcome as a GM, and embarrassed the franchise with how he dealt with the Lindros situation. Sure people love him from his playing days, but things change. If Brian Dawkins ever became Eagles coach and turned out to be a total dope and said some stupid things, then my assessment would change there as well.

Chamberlain does get all the credit he deerves. He gets a ton of credit, and is certainly loved. But despite being a local kid and playing for the Sixers and Warriors, he's really a Laker. Still, he's certainly in the conversation, along with Dr. J. Highschool and college bball is huge around here - it almost doesn't matter where you play pro. There's a big Earl Monroe contingent in these parts as well.

As for the other guys, you're just going to have to accept that (as in all cities) there are a lot of things that are said or observed that you just miss when you're not actually in that area. I'm sure there's good players that aren't liked in Cleveland or Boston that I'd be like "how could they hate him?" but I'm not watching every (or, practically any) of their games or listening to their interviews or coverage.

I may have mispoken a little about Chamberlain, and what you said about Monroe is certainly true as well.

But in terms of other cities, Philly is the only one I know that reguarly gets criticized for this. You can find examples in other cities. Maris would probably be the most famous example in New York. Boston has kind of this good riddance attitude whenever anyone leaves now with maybe the exception of Ray Bourque. Can't speak much in regards to Chicago.

But Philly is just a different breed of fan. I think alot of fans have a very set idea for what they want their teams to play like and be like, and if they don't do that, its almost as bad as losing because your not playing the game "the right way." I'm also generalizing alot here as well. Every fanbase has good fans and aholes. Its just with Philly the aholes seem to be in greater numbers.

Also would like to throw Joe Fraizer in the mix as well in terms of beloved Philly athletes.

Fraizer is another good name. A little before my time but just from what I know, he'd most likely be in the discussion as well... except that the generation that really cared about boxing and really would have appreciated him is dead or dying, and it's just not a big deal anymore. I realize that there was a time when boxing had much more than just a niche following, but the sad facts are that in most places, boxing just isn't relevant anymore among common sports fans. I could be wrong about that - I know he's still a legend and everything, and might be on Mt. Rushmore, but it's that unfortunate lack of current relevancy and the fact that I just wasn't around when he was the king of the town that prevents me from mentioning him.

My point about Dawkins is that it's 100%. It's not that most fans loved him, but there's not even a small segment that's like "I'll never forgive him for doing xxxxxx!!"

I grew up in the Reggie White, Seth Joyner, Eric Allen, Cunningham era. The closest thing to Dawkins would be Reggie White, except that he alienated a large segment of the population with his religious beliefs and anti-gay comments. He may be in the conversation for greatest DE in history, but as a man, the world is better off without people like him in it, IMO. So at least there, there's one person who doesn't care for Reggie. There may very well be zero that don't care for Dawkins, and that's something that in my now 35 years, I've never seen in this city.

[pmoehrin]

My point about Dawkins is that it's 100%. It's not that most fans loved him, but there's not even a small segment that's like "I'll never forgive him for doing xxxxxx!!"

As it should be.

He left because the Eagles wanted to go in another direction at the safety position and I don't think anyone was expecting him to take a backup role when he could obvioiusly still play.

He'll definitely be a HOFer and I'd put him right there with Reggie White and Chuck Bednarik for greatest defensive player in Eagles history. Certainly the best secondary player the Eagles have ever had.

[BBTV]

Sorry for Philajacking the thread.

Back to football - are there any stats for that silly "timeout immediately before FG is kicked" move? Like how many were made before the timeout and then missed after, or vice versa?

I could maybe see it affecting a rookie, but then again that rookie might need the extra time to settle down, so it could be counter productive. I can't imagine for a veteran that it makes any difference. Seems like a silly move, and one that should be outlawed. Make it so only players can call timeouts again, or something.

[BBTV]

My point about Dawkins is that it's 100%. It's not that most fans loved him, but there's not even a small segment that's like "I'll never forgive him for doing xxxxxx!!"

As it should be.

He left because the Eagles wanted to go in another direction at the safety position and I don't think anyone was expecting him to take a backup role when he could obvioiusly still play.

He'll definitely be a HOFer and I'd put him right there with Reggie White and Chuck Bednarik for greatest defensive player in Eagles history. Certainly the best secondary player the Eagles have ever had.

Last Philajack post (promise).

I don't know that he's a lock HOFer - it's tough for a safety, especially one that hasn't one a title. He might make it, but it's not a no brainer IMO.

Also it wasn't necessarily that the team wanted to go in a different direction and he would have been a bench player - he wouldn't have been. It was two things -

1. Donovan McNabb was uncomfortable that he wasn't the "leader" of the team, and didn't have the personality to be a natural leader. They systematically got rid of the other vocal team leaders, and there are stories out there that it was McNabb driving a lot of it because he felt he needed to be "the guy". Personally, I believe this was a factor.

2. Money. The Eagles under Joe Banner have routinely let their over 30 players go. There are obvious exceptions, but by in large they won't pay guys who are older - especially at skill positions. They made him an offer, but certainly not one befitting of his value to the beam. Denver's offer was a little silly though. The Eagles absolutely Fd up there - what they lost in leadership and talent might have cost them another super bowl appearance. They owed it to the fan base to make an exception and over pay a guy like him. When he left (just search for my and other's posts from back then) there was as much anger toward the team as I can remember. Even more than when they signed Michael Vick.

[STL FANATIC]

Don't think it's been mentioned yet.

The Colts rookie Head Coach Chuck Pagano has been diagnosed with Leukemia. Sad news.

It sounds like they've caught it relatively early and it is treatable. His odds of remission are high but of course not 100%. It's enough that he's going to have to miss some time anyways.

Hoping he's able to make a full recovery.

[dfwabel]

Sorry for Philajacking the thread.

Back to football - are there any stats for that silly "timeout immediately before FG is kicked" move? Like how many were made before the timeout and then missed after, or vice versa?

I could maybe see it affecting a rookie, but then again that rookie might need the extra time to settle down, so it could be counter productive. I can't imagine for a veteran that it makes any difference. Seems like a silly move, and one that should be outlawed. Make it so only players can call timeouts again, or something.

The book, "Scorecasting" covered the impact from 2001-2009. Freakonomics blog ran a story on their data.

http://www.freakonomics.com/2011/11/13/football-freakonomics-why-even-ice-a-kicker/

[BBTV]

Is early data really relevant though? I'm not talking about just "icing" the kicker by calling a TO before the kick. I mean the last-microsecond TOs called by the coaches, which IIRC has only been allowed the past 4 or 5 seasons or something like that. Could be mistaken though.

[oldschoolvikings]

Is early data really relevant though? I'm not talking about just "icing" the kicker by calling a TO before the kick. I mean the last-microsecond TOs called by the coaches, which IIRC has only been allowed the past 4 or 5 seasons or something like that. Could be mistaken though.

That's one of the most annoying plays in football. I don't know how many times its been sucsessful (for the D) but I know i've seen at least a few instances in which the unofficial "time-outed" kick was missed, and the kicker comes back to make it one that counts. Serves the jerkoff coach right.

I'd like to see the NFL outlaw it... on all FG attempts, time outs must be called before the kicker is set, or something. What does anyone else think?

[pmoehrin]

Is early data really relevant though? I'm not talking about just "icing" the kicker by calling a TO before the kick. I mean the last-microsecond TOs called by the coaches, which IIRC has only been allowed the past 4 or 5 seasons or something like that. Could be mistaken though.

That's one of the most annoying plays in football. I don't know how many times its been sucsessful (for the D) but I know i've seen at least a few instances in which the unofficial "time-outed" kick was missed, and the kicker comes back to make it one that counts. Serves the jerkoff coach right.

I'd like to see the NFL outlaw it... on all FG attempts, time outs must be called before the kicker is set, or something. What does anyone else think?

I would be in favor of eliminating it as well. I could see if it actually worked, but from all I can tell it does nothing but add more time onto the game and these games are already long enough as it is.

I would say once the kicker sets up that's it in terms of the defense being able to call a timeout. I would still allow Jason Garrett to ice his own kickers though.

[BBTV]

Is early data really relevant though? I'm not talking about just "icing" the kicker by calling a TO before the kick. I mean the last-microsecond TOs called by the coaches, which IIRC has only been allowed the past 4 or 5 seasons or something like that. Could be mistaken though.

That's one of the most annoying plays in football. I don't know how many times its been sucsessful (for the D) but I know i've seen at least a few instances in which the unofficial "time-outed" kick was missed, and the kicker comes back to make it one that counts. Serves the jerkoff coach right.

I'd like to see the NFL outlaw it... on all FG attempts, time outs must be called before the kicker is set, or something. What does anyone else think?

I would be in favor of eliminating it as well. I could see if it actually worked, but from all I can tell it does nothing but add more time onto the game and these games are already long enough as it is.

I would say once the kicker sets up that's it in terms of the defense being able to call a timeout. I would still allow Jason Garrett to ice his own kickers though.

That wouldn't work, because a team could just drop it's QB back like a kicker real quick with maybe a WR as a "holder", just to freeze the defense from being able to take a timeout, then shift back and run a play if it's a situation where they're trying to run down the clock and the defense is trying to call timeouts.

Or if you see the defense putting their punt block team on you could really quick adjust and just do the fake kicker thing then run a real play against a punt block defense.

[pmoehrin]

Is early data really relevant though? I'm not talking about just "icing" the kicker by calling a TO before the kick. I mean the last-microsecond TOs called by the coaches, which IIRC has only been allowed the past 4 or 5 seasons or something like that. Could be mistaken though.

That's one of the most annoying plays in football. I don't know how many times its been sucsessful (for the D) but I know i've seen at least a few instances in which the unofficial "time-outed" kick was missed, and the kicker comes back to make it one that counts. Serves the jerkoff coach right.

I'd like to see the NFL outlaw it... on all FG attempts, time outs must be called before the kicker is set, or something. What does anyone else think?

I would be in favor of eliminating it as well. I could see if it actually worked, but from all I can tell it does nothing but add more time onto the game and these games are already long enough as it is.

I would say once the kicker sets up that's it in terms of the defense being able to call a timeout. I would still allow Jason Garrett to ice his own kickers though.

That wouldn't work, because a team could just drop it's QB back like a kicker real quick with maybe a WR as a "holder", just to freeze the defense from being able to take a timeout, then shift back and run a play if it's a situation where they're trying to run down the clock and the defense is trying to call timeouts.

Or if you see the defense putting their punt block team on you could really quick adjust and just do the fake kicker thing then run a real play against a punt block defense.

You could always write in an unsportsmanlike clause in as well. Any field goal formation without the kicker on the field would be automatically considered an illegal formation. Think that would be fairly easy to call.

Also I would only apply this rule to the last two minute of a games. I don't think is anyone running a fake field goal down by three with 10 seconds to go.

[rams80]

Is early data really relevant though? I'm not talking about just "icing" the kicker by calling a TO before the kick. I mean the last-microsecond TOs called by the coaches, which IIRC has only been allowed the past 4 or 5 seasons or something like that. Could be mistaken though.

That's one of the most annoying plays in football. I don't know how many times its been sucsessful (for the D) but I know i've seen at least a few instances in which the unofficial "time-outed" kick was missed, and the kicker comes back to make it one that counts. Serves the jerkoff coach right.

I'd like to see the NFL outlaw it... on all FG attempts, time outs must be called before the kicker is set, or something. What does anyone else think?

I would be in favor of eliminating it as well. I could see if it actually worked, but from all I can tell it does nothing but add more time onto the game and these games are already long enough as it is.

I would say once the kicker sets up that's it in terms of the defense being able to call a timeout. I would still allow Jason Garrett to ice his own kickers though.

That wouldn't work, because a team could just drop it's QB back like a kicker real quick with maybe a WR as a "holder", just to freeze the defense from being able to take a timeout, then shift back and run a play if it's a situation where they're trying to run down the clock and the defense is trying to call timeouts.

Or if you see the defense putting their punt block team on you could really quick adjust and just do the fake kicker thing then run a real play against a punt block defense.

You could always write in an unsportsmanlike clause in as well. Any field goal formation without the kicker on the field would be automatically considered an illegal formation. Think that would be fairly easy to call.

Also I would only apply this rule to the last two minute of a games. I don't think is anyone running a fake field goal down by three with 10 seconds to go.

If you're an otherwise outmatched team with a sufficiently aggressive coach, I could see a reason to run one.

I think the solutions here create more problems than the problem, honestly.

[HedleyLamarr]

Also I would only apply this rule to the last two minute of a games. I don't think is anyone running a fake field goal down by three with 10 seconds to go.

[udubs03]

How about all timeouts have to be called by a player on the field? I think that could go a long way in eliminating a lot of those last second timeouts on field goals.

[pmoehrin]

Also I would only apply this rule to the last two minute of a games. I don't think is anyone running a fake field goal down by three with 10 seconds to go.

Yeah but they still had time to run a couple plays after that attempt. It wasn't the last play of the game nor could it have been. I do see what your saying though. Its a tough thing to account for. Just not a fan of icing at all.