.

[oldschoolvikings]

I don't see why the Packers couldn't have a FlyWire cut with their famous collar sewn over the top of the flywire application. Those kinds of decisions, I think (unless that application impacts FlyWire's performance...which I kind of doubt), are ones that reflect FlyWire being a design element. I don't think that it necessarly was intended to be, but it's a nice byproduct that people discuss Nike uniforms because of the collar.

I think , if I'm understanding what's being said correctly, is that there would be no point of having the flywire AND the collar. The idea is that the flywire takes the place of a traditional collar (giving structure to the neck opening) but isn't as heavy. If you have a collar you don't need flywire and vice versa.

It's possible that that's the case. I completely understand the concern for keeping uniforms light, but I don't think that that concern is eliminated with an application of a collar. It may be overkill, but it's a design element that would help teams move forward with technology and retain tradition.

To me, the weight issue stems more from a total use of material and material construction. While an applied collar would add weight, I highly doubt that a few ounces of material (if that) around the neck of a player is going to be noticed by said player.

Oh, believe me, I agree with that. That's why I personally believe that the flywire is as much about marketing as it is about performance. The difference in weight between a jersey with a collar and a jersey with flywire is, I'm sure, a real and measurable thing. And it gives the manufacturer the opourtunity to truthfully advertize that their product is lighter, and that a lighter jersey is something a player would, theoretically, be interested in. However, the idea that the difference of a few ounces means a change on the scoreboard? Hmm.

[TheOneAndOnlyMau]

I love how this great, informative thread is getting polluted with stupid questions about jersey material/construction, nike propaganda, etc when we have a true professional giving us real world insight on nike's DESIGN process. DESIGN. not TECH.

great thread gordie_delini. Thanks for the insight

[BrandMooreArt]

ESTONES6: Really dude? I've answered this question several times already. Hold on, let me turn my sarcasm filter on. [sarcasm]Yes Nike is just a giant propaganda machine. We just throw out there for marketing's sake that doesn't do what we say it does so we can make more money! It's not like we work with current and former athletes, many of whom are actually employed at Nike, to make sure we continue to improve upon garment design from head to toe to make athletes more comfortable and perform better, nope, all we care about are the benjamins!!! consumers and what they know, it's really all a giant conspiracy so that we can get a swoosh ON EVERYTHING EVARRRRR!!!!! BWAHAHAHAHA[/sarcasm]

Honestly this is getting ridiculous. I can't tell you about future innovation or even the reasons behind why the tech people do what they do, but be assured there's massive amounts of research, design, and testing that goes on. WE DO NOT INCLUDE FEATURES ON OUR GARMENTS FOR NO REASON. Alright? Enough of this. Any further discussion about the damn flywire will result in this thread being shut down.

No reason to get your panties in a bunch. I, or anyone else with independent thoughts, can't be expected to believe that this flywire material is so innovative and does everything its advertised to do, when its on ONE part, of the smallest, least affected parts of the uniform. I understand science is constantly evolving, but when you go from having the flywire on the front of the shouler pads for all these Pro Combat uniforms, and then it gets reduced to the front part of the collar... I just don't see many people buying in to it, especially if no one is allowed to really say what it does. It would be one thing if it was on the entire collar, on the sleeves, at the base of the jersey, around the pants and socks, etc. Stuff that actually falls or sags or has pads coming out of... but its on the front of the collar.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that Nike strives for innovation and bettering every part of the uniform, but when it comes to this flywire, I'm just not buying in to it. That's all. I wasn't trying to call you out and say you are a phony, I just wanted some evidence/facts/reasons/logic as to the flywire.

I was making more of a rhetorical comment than asking a sincere question. I'm not trying to ruin the fun for everyone.

well said...there are many sports "innovations" that may seem beneficial but in reality they yield little to no benefit...flywire is a great example of how it appeared on this shoulders and has all but disappeared but for the uniforms designed off of team builder...same deal with the collars some teams have the same jersey template but the flywire is not consistently used...if it was that functional or beneficial all jerseys would incorporate it.

nike isn't the only culprit to market the idea of innovation but they perfected it.

its been said multiple times, Flywire strengthens material (collar) and allows for less overall material to be used. thats the point. thats what it does. its not some kind of trolling conspiracy where Nike is trying to pull something over on people. promising something from a product and not have it deliver is pure business failure. its not there to serve as a reminder of who made the jersey, thats what the logo does.

even if its a small step forward in uniform technology, isnt that worth it? arnt we supposed to push things forward and make things better? like i said before, its not marketing bull ; its not the only thing that separates their jersey from others, but if its there, its something, and im positive Nike wouldnt put it out there if they didnt believe in it. theres no reason for them to. the collar design takes advantage of "highlighting" it yes, but Nike dosent need to just do that for attention. they're at the top of their market.

as for teams like the Texans not wanting it, i think its safe to say they just value the design/look of what they ended up with over the functionality of all the Nike features. and Nike delivered for them.

sorry if you've spent any time in the consumer products industry...very rarely is marketing decoupled from product innovation...things such as plastic bottles are now advertised as eco-friendly because they contain less material when in fact those bottles were designed with the sole intent of cutting raw material costs in mind...the environmental aspect was a pure secondary benefit which has been exploited to the consumer via marketing.

I would say 50% of the products we buy are marketed as innovative or new and improved some way but offer marginal improvement year to year...if you are marketing seasonal lines that have to be sold in annually your marketing teams need to sell something that differentiates it from last season's models...other than changing colorways, incremental innovations are commonplace to create a sales story plain and simple.

many incremental innovations offer very little benefit or simply don't catch on as intended (flywire in football jerseys)...while other's plain suck and fail in the marketplace (remember the adidas powerband?)...the other true innovations are paradigm shifts in product design and often create new product categories (think moisture wicking baselayers).

you're pulling an example of a carless, irresponsible, snake oil salesman (water bottles) and comparing it to Nike flywire? i never said there arnt those types of people/advertisers out there, but i really dont think they're in the Nike design departments. if we're going to criticize the company on ethics of manufacturing and marketing, you KNOW we can go to other branches/departments of Nike, but i dont think they're in Portland.

im not sure how you feel about the Flywire still. is it little innovation, or is it a complete failure? GDU just provided his experience and it seems to be working as intended. rarely is innovation a giant leap

I think flywire is an interesting concept and construction technique...the concept isn't entirely original when applied to jerseys as several nfl teams would essentially reinforce shoulder yokes, via custom tailoring with additional seams to prevent stretching and tearing (bucs, bears, cowboys)...given there are other jerseys made by nike that are used on the playing field that use zero flywire, and I doubt the no flywire group's performance has been inhibited due to having slightly heavier fabrics/materials or lacking reinforcement. I think the best application of flywire has been in footwear. Football jerseys not so much. Is it a failure? No, but it's value in football jerseys is marginal at best.

I admire your idealistic view of nike and its r&d but let's be real here, they are a branding/marketing company first and foremost. They are one of the best at what they do much like apple and coca-cola, they all spend a ton of money on r&d every year but the it's their ability to market their products as innovative which has put them on the map, not the other way around. It's easy to forget the miscues that these companies have but they have a ton of them. Even the innovations that stick may only have a 5 year shelf life before the consumer grows tired and they move on to the next new trend. That's how it works in the big branded product biz.

Also if you want some more sports related examples of innovative burnouts we can get a list going I suppose. Adi power band was one. I'll also add pump technology shoes, the nike recycled plastic soccer jerseys, rbk 1st gen edge jerseys.

i know what Nike and the big brands can do marketing wise. Coca-Cola's product is a soft drink; they sell happiness, and advertise that the world is a better place with it. i get all that, and know of the older features other brands have put out. i just don't see Flywire in that group. i think its functional enough that its a legitimate piece of uniform design.

[oldschoolvikings]

I love how this great, informative thread is getting polluted with stupid questions about jersey material/construction, nike propaganda, etc when we have a true professional giving us real world insight on nike's DESIGN process. DESIGN. not TECH.

great thread gordie_delini. Thanks for the insight

Well. you know, there's no reason why the "true professional" can't keep "giving us real world insight on nike's DESIGN process" in between others discussing whatever the hell they find interesting. That's kinda how internet discussion boards work... if the majority of posters felt this thread was getting polluted with stupid questions, either the questions would stop or the thread would peter out.

Nike's flywire has been a major topic of discussion in a lot of threads in the past half a year because of the nightmare collars the NFL has been wearing... doesn't seem surprising that in a thread specifically about Nike's design process a few people might ask, "hey, what's the deal with those?" Gordie_delini has made it clear he doesn't have much to say about it, which is fine, but I don't see why others can't talk about it.

[gordie_delini]

I'm going to echo what Mau said - this is about the process of designing the uniform GRAPHICS. NOT the tech design. I am extremely frustrated with the whining about the flywire and how people don't like it or don't get it. I've done my best to explain it's purpose, explain the fact that the tech designers have gone to great lengths to research and test this feature, and that it's there for a purpose. If you don't want to believe that, fine, but be done with it and move on. I have not seen hardly any questions about our process at all over the last few days, so I'm inclined to have this thread removed and deleted. Give me a reason not to.

Anyone else here an employee at Nike? Anyone else want to share firsthand knowledge of why we do what we do? No? Didn't think so. I regret ever mentioning that I work at Nike in the first place.

[Fresno St. Alum]

So was it Nike's idea for Texas A&M to look like Texas Tech that one game this year or was it A&M's idea? I don't like turning on the tv and not knowing who I'm watching anymore. minor tweaks are cool but a lot of stuff is over the top. I hope the NFL doesn't go crazy like college has. I see no need for the wedge of crowns on the the seahawks helmet.

I did like your high school design and the Wyoming stuff.

Texas A&M is an adidas school

Adidas, Under Armor all monkey see monkey do following nike

[chuckymack]

Gordie, don't regret posting that you had a fantastic opportunity to do something the vast majority of people here dream about. Regret the fact that you're surrounded by simpletons who don't understand the thread you graciously created.

OldSchoolVikings, you're more than welcome to create your own thread about FlyWire and other garment-construction technologies. In fact, I highly encourage you to do so.

In the meantime, please refrain from any Nikebashing or FlyWirebashing in this thread. Some of us REALLY enjoy learning about this sort of thing, and would like for Gordie, Brandon, Andrew, and Fraser to be able to continue offering their insights without remorse or recourse. This is a thread about DESIGN, not R&D or MARKETING (and before you say it, design and marketing are two TOTALLY different things).

[guest23]

Gordie, don't regret posting that you had a fantastic opportunity to do something the vast majority of people here dream about. Regret the fact that you're surrounded by simpletons who don't understand the thread you graciously created.

OldSchoolVikings, you're more than welcome to create your own thread about FlyWire and other garment-construction technologies. In fact, I highly encourage you to do so.

In the meantime, please refrain from any Nikebashing or FlyWirebashing in this thread. Some of us REALLY enjoy learning about this sort of thing, and would like for Gordie, Brandon, Andrew, and Fraser to be able to continue offering their insights without remorse or recourse. This is a thread about DESIGN, not R&D or MARKETING (and before you say it, design and marketing are two TOTALLY different things).

sorry all three are completely intertwined in the modern age of sporting goods product development...and quite frankly nike brought this upon themselves by branding themselves as a proprietary innovation driven company...yes it's unfortunate a simple designer from the creative side of the campus has to bear the brunt of the marketing execs hype machine coming from their corner office but it's simply inevitable.

but if you must keep the discussion locked down to colors, fonts, stripes, and the occasional logo that's fine as I will back off.

[BigDmo]

Can we get a mod in here to get the flywire talk out to keep this thread open, this has been one of the best threads on CCSLC, would hate to see it shut down because a couple guys won't follow gordie's guidelines.

[rtrich11]

I think the f-wire discussion has gone as far as it can. Keep this alive!

[jayrock]

This thread is awesome. Congrats on working for the best in the business when it comes to sports uniforms. It's exciting to know what's going on inside Nike for some of these uniforms. I only wish you could spill more specifics as far as the reasoning behind certain designs.

This Air Force logo is gorgeous

They should have rebranded around this logo alone. Beautiful.

Your Wyoming rebrand is also amazing.

I'll ask some questions tomorrow, I just wanted to boost your ego a little bit.

EDIT: I also saw you worked on the Navy/Army uniforms. If you had anything to do with that Navy helmet, I love you. It is the greatest helmet to ever exist in my humble opinion... this coming from a die hard ND fan.

[CS85]

Anyone else here an employee at Nike? Anyone else want to share firsthand knowledge of why we do what we do? No? Didn't think so. I regret ever mentioning that I work at Nike in the first place.

I am/was grateful that you opened up to share the process and answer some good questions with enlightening answers, gordie.

That being said, knee-jerk comments like that are what's going to lead to this thread crashing and burning. Sad to see what was a good thread crumble away because of expected hyperbolic internet discourse wearing away at the OP.

[gordie_delini]

Chuckymac, BigDmo, rtrich11, jayrock: Thanks guys for the support and kind words.

CS85: I only have so much patience, ya know? I'm disappointed it came to that reaction as well but I felt backed into a corner.

I've enjoyed fielding your guys' questions, and I've done my best to give thorough and meaningful replies when I'm able to. I'd love to keep answering questions if you guys have some more.

[TSHARE18]

I have a few more questions. How many people total work on one team design process? Does each person make a full uniform design and you guys vote on which one you like best? Do you work as a team on one design and just make changes to it until everybody is happy? Im not sure if you were there for it but how did the idea to use those totem pole things on the Seahawks set come about? Was that Nike or was that from the team itself?

[gordie_delini]

TSHARE18: Usually it's one designer, one team. If you read back towards the beginning of the thread, I'm fairly sure I answered a similar question. If a team is wanting lots of options, then we'll bring in multiple designers and have a round-table design review, but mainly it's just the designer and the art director going one-on-one. After it's approved by the art director, it goes to the creative director for feedback, then once that's approved, out to the team for feedback. And so on and so forth. A lot of times though, we will get opinions in an informal setting from the other designers, but that's very casual and not essential to the process always. As for the Seahawks, that was before I arrived, so I can't speak to that, though I'm fairly certain that was the designer's concept from the get-go.

[debo0775]

I love how this great, informative thread is getting polluted with stupid questions about jersey material/construction, nike propaganda, etc when we have a true professional giving us real world insight on nike's DESIGN process. DESIGN. not TECH.

great thread gordie_delini. Thanks for the insight

Sorry, but if you're concerned about only the aesthetics of a design for something that is heavily impacted by the technology and construction of said product, you're thinking too little about the product.

The design absolutely has to stand out (for NCAA and NFL specifically since this is where the thread is focused) to be able to build a recognizable brand. But, materials change, thoughts on human kinematics change, demands of materials to perform with new equipment that doesn't necessarily directly impact the uniform change. To ignore technology and the desire to improve performance is to ignore an integral portion of a sporting product's design.

With that said, I'll leave this discussion. I didn't intend to derail the thread, and I'm not intending to force gordie nor anyone else to comment on why Nike does what they do. Perhaps I was misguided in thinking a discussion about one of the more recognizable parts of the current Nike jersey cut was appropriate.

[BlueSky]

A fascinating thread. I don't usually read through 11 pages of posts when I haven't followed a thread from the beginning but I did this time.

My questions are:

1. Do your Nike bosses approve? I only ask because many companies now are so paranoid about people discussing their jobs online.

2. Is the mesh side panel under the pants stripes also a comfort or performance feature, like for cooling? Does it have any impact or influence on designing a pants stripe?

3. I would also have to agree with the poster who said it's annoying to turn on a game and not be able to recognize the same team from week to week. Oklahoma State would be a good example this season. But if I understood you correctly, it's not the manufacturer pushing the variety, right, it's the schools?

I understand your frustration about criticism from those who don't know the process. It was hard not to laugh back in my airline days when some frustrated passenger would say, "You guys don't care, nobody's doing anything about this!" when I knew about 20 or more people behind the scenes were busting their a**es to find a replacement aircraft or get a reserve crew member to the airport or whatever needed to be done to fix the problem.

With that said, and with respect and true appreciation for the insights you've shared, your comments about having the thread shut down and deleted come across as "I'm going to take my ball and go home!" If you've been on these boards, and I know you have, you had to expect some flak and some tangents, right? You're an Oregon guy, just do that "water off a duck's back" thing.

[VJ_Heck]

Thanks for the great insight into the 'behind the scenes' process. As someone new to the logo design and branding world, this information is extremely fascinating.

I just took a look at your website. The Wyoming rebrand package is Awesome! You state on the site that the rebrand was killed by the licensing department. Your designs looked like a vast improvement - while still maintaining the simplistic Wyoming style. What was the reason they gave you for the shut down?

Also, it says that the Wyoming project was a "self imposed labor of love". Does that mean that you started that project before you worked at Nike, or was that one of the projects that Nike assigned to you afterward?

Thanks again.

[Chawls]

Brian, you said earlier that we'd see more of the projects you worked on in 2013. When they become public, will you let us all know which ones you we're involved with?

[dmhtfld]

I have been lurking in this thread since you started it and I just want to say thanks for you contribution to this site. What you have said has been very informative and one day I hope to be in the same position as you. I do have a some questions though(mainly about the Ohio State uniforms).

1. Since you said you had part in the Ohio State rivalry uniform, what was the reasoning for not continuing the stripe all the way up the pants? It seems like you guys just decided to stop where the seam was.

2. Why have a metallic red stipe on the helmet but not on the pants or sleeves?

3. If you could change one thing about the OSU rivalry uniform what would it be?

4. I would love to have the same exact job that you do. I have yet to attend college. What would you recommend I major in and what should I do after I have my degree?