.

[guest23]

ESTONES6: Really dude? I've answered this question several times already. Hold on, let me turn my sarcasm filter on. [sarcasm]Yes Nike is just a giant propaganda machine. We just throw out there for marketing's sake that doesn't do what we say it does so we can make more money! It's not like we work with current and former athletes, many of whom are actually employed at Nike, to make sure we continue to improve upon garment design from head to toe to make athletes more comfortable and perform better, nope, all we care about are the benjamins!!! consumers and what they know, it's really all a giant conspiracy so that we can get a swoosh ON EVERYTHING EVARRRRR!!!!! BWAHAHAHAHA[/sarcasm]

Honestly this is getting ridiculous. I can't tell you about future innovation or even the reasons behind why the tech people do what they do, but be assured there's massive amounts of research, design, and testing that goes on. WE DO NOT INCLUDE FEATURES ON OUR GARMENTS FOR NO REASON. Alright? Enough of this. Any further discussion about the damn flywire will result in this thread being shut down.

No reason to get your panties in a bunch. I, or anyone else with independent thoughts, can't be expected to believe that this flywire material is so innovative and does everything its advertised to do, when its on ONE part, of the smallest, least affected parts of the uniform. I understand science is constantly evolving, but when you go from having the flywire on the front of the shouler pads for all these Pro Combat uniforms, and then it gets reduced to the front part of the collar... I just don't see many people buying in to it, especially if no one is allowed to really say what it does. It would be one thing if it was on the entire collar, on the sleeves, at the base of the jersey, around the pants and socks, etc. Stuff that actually falls or sags or has pads coming out of... but its on the front of the collar.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that Nike strives for innovation and bettering every part of the uniform, but when it comes to this flywire, I'm just not buying in to it. That's all. I wasn't trying to call you out and say you are a phony, I just wanted some evidence/facts/reasons/logic as to the flywire.

I was making more of a rhetorical comment than asking a sincere question. I'm not trying to ruin the fun for everyone.

well said...there are many sports "innovations" that may seem beneficial but in reality they yield little to no benefit...flywire is a great example of how it appeared on this shoulders and has all but disappeared but for the uniforms designed off of team builder...same deal with the collars some teams have the same jersey template but the flywire is not consistently used...if it was that functional or beneficial all jerseys would incorporate it.

nike isn't the only culprit to market the idea of innovation but they perfected it.

[andrewharrington]

It's the difference in critiques between saying, "I don't think those shoulder stripes were the best choice for this uniform." versus, "There goes Adidas again, ruining another uniform. What can't they stop being lazy?"

I disagree about that. Clearly, Nike, Adidas et al. have moved towards producing their own proprietary templates. This was presumably for the purpose of their own branding. They have, in many cases, smashed square pegs into round holes by distorting teams' striping patterns to fit them into their proprietary templates. In the case of the New York Jets, I don't know how anyone can look at the three different shades of green on their home jersey (with only the shoulder stripe being their actual shade) and NOT declare it either laziness or callousness. In the end, the Jets had the chance to tell Nike that was unacceptable, as the Packers did, but Nike still presented the Jets with something which is flat out garbage. The Jets were the little old lady and Nike was the swindler who coaxed her into signing her house over to him. You don't blame the old lady in that situation. The same can be said for the flywire collars. They are huge and look horrible. They distort things further because the neck hole is gigantic, with the flywire starting under the place the old collar used to end. This has further cluttered already shrinking jerseys. A few teams chose to not take the flywire, but Nike obviously pitched it to all team as "you will get left in the dust. This is a huge advantage for any team." In that case, the teams trusted Nike and were sold a bill of goods. It wasn't about improving those teams' performance, it was about getting exposure for a collar which is unequivocally Nike.

Another example is Adidas with moving sleeve stripes up, basically onto the shoulders and reducing UCLA type stripes to basically chevrons. That's either laziness or because they just don't care. Ultimately, someone at UCLA has to have the guts to tell Adidas it's unacceptable, but Adidas was forcing the issue anyway by making no efforts to reproduce the stripes in a decent matter. If they did make an effort, the stripes could still look good. I also don't buy the excuse some have offered that we don't understand what goes into manufacturing jerseys and how it isn't as easy as sewing a piece of fabric around the shoulders. Look, a bunch of different Nike teams had their own templates over the past decade. If Illinois can have a jersey with piping going around the back and a bottom stripe, if Mizzou can have a diamond pattern on the side of its jerseys, Nike and Adidas can hammer out a way to veer from their templates and fit respectable shoulder loops.

Look at it this way. Many products that are manufactured en masse are on a redesign schedule. It's like a car. All the research and development, prototyping, revisions, etc. are done from 2009-2011 and then the new Honda Accord is finally rolled out in 2012. The public makes its judgment, and maybe in 2013 and 2014 the company does what it can do to improve the car based on what the public thinks of it, but that sucker is not scheduled to be overhauled until 2016, so no matter what the public pressure is, there's no way Honda can afford to blow up the production and redesign the product early. It wouldn't have the requisite research and testing behind it, and it would cost far too much to drop the 2012-era design so soon. The more miles you can get out of the 2012-era product, the more cost effective it is. Business, baby.

Did you laugh when your boss first showed you those horribly designed Oregon uniforms? Can you tell us what Georgia actually thought of their Pro Combat uniform? Did they hate or love it?

This is a dumb question. Georgia signed off on the thing.

[TheOldRoman]

Drew22: No Nike has no "minimum drink policy" where did you hear that? It's pretty much like any regular office environment. And it is a fantastic place to work, lots of really great people.

Shoot miswording on my part. Someone I work with told me you could have up to two drinks at lunch. I find that hard to believe, but I thought I'd ask. Thanks for answering all these questions.

That is true of Zappos. They have a beer tap in the office and let people drink at work. However, you have to swipe your employee card to get a beer. Basically, they don't limit you, but they watch you and could take the right away if they think it's being abused.

[BrandMooreArt]

ESTONES6: Really dude? I've answered this question several times already. Hold on, let me turn my sarcasm filter on. [sarcasm]Yes Nike is just a giant propaganda machine. We just throw out there for marketing's sake that doesn't do what we say it does so we can make more money! It's not like we work with current and former athletes, many of whom are actually employed at Nike, to make sure we continue to improve upon garment design from head to toe to make athletes more comfortable and perform better, nope, all we care about are the benjamins!!! consumers and what they know, it's really all a giant conspiracy so that we can get a swoosh ON EVERYTHING EVARRRRR!!!!! BWAHAHAHAHA[/sarcasm]

Honestly this is getting ridiculous. I can't tell you about future innovation or even the reasons behind why the tech people do what they do, but be assured there's massive amounts of research, design, and testing that goes on. WE DO NOT INCLUDE FEATURES ON OUR GARMENTS FOR NO REASON. Alright? Enough of this. Any further discussion about the damn flywire will result in this thread being shut down.

No reason to get your panties in a bunch. I, or anyone else with independent thoughts, can't be expected to believe that this flywire material is so innovative and does everything its advertised to do, when its on ONE part, of the smallest, least affected parts of the uniform. I understand science is constantly evolving, but when you go from having the flywire on the front of the shouler pads for all these Pro Combat uniforms, and then it gets reduced to the front part of the collar... I just don't see many people buying in to it, especially if no one is allowed to really say what it does. It would be one thing if it was on the entire collar, on the sleeves, at the base of the jersey, around the pants and socks, etc. Stuff that actually falls or sags or has pads coming out of... but its on the front of the collar.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that Nike strives for innovation and bettering every part of the uniform, but when it comes to this flywire, I'm just not buying in to it. That's all. I wasn't trying to call you out and say you are a phony, I just wanted some evidence/facts/reasons/logic as to the flywire.

I was making more of a rhetorical comment than asking a sincere question. I'm not trying to ruin the fun for everyone.

well said...there are many sports "innovations" that may seem beneficial but in reality they yield little to no benefit...flywire is a great example of how it appeared on this shoulders and has all but disappeared but for the uniforms designed off of team builder...same deal with the collars some teams have the same jersey template but the flywire is not consistently used...if it was that functional or beneficial all jerseys would incorporate it.

nike isn't the only culprit to market the idea of innovation but they perfected it.

its been said multiple times, Flywire strengthens material (collar) and allows for less overall material to be used. thats the point. thats what it does. its not some kind of trolling conspiracy where Nike is trying to pull something over on people. promising something from a product and not have it deliver is pure business failure. its not there to serve as a reminder of who made the jersey, thats what the logo does.

even if its a small step forward in uniform technology, isnt that worth it? arnt we supposed to push things forward and make things better? like i said before, its not marketing bull ; its not the only thing that separates their jersey from others, but if its there, its something, and im positive Nike wouldnt put it out there if they didnt believe in it. theres no reason for them to. the collar design takes advantage of "highlighting" it yes, but Nike dosent need to just do that for attention. they're at the top of their market.

as for teams like the Texans not wanting it, i think its safe to say they just value the design/look of what they ended up with over the functionality of all the Nike features. and Nike delivered for them.

[debo0775]

No reason to get your panties in a bunch. I, or anyone else with independent thoughts, can't be expected to believe that this flywire material is so innovative and does everything its advertised to do, when its on ONE part, of the smallest, least affected parts of the uniform. I understand science is constantly evolving, but when you go from having the flywire on the front of the shouler pads for all these Pro Combat uniforms, and then it gets reduced to the front part of the collar... I just don't see many people buying in to it, especially if no one is allowed to really say what it does. It would be one thing if it was on the entire collar, on the sleeves, at the base of the jersey, around the pants and socks, etc. Stuff that actually falls or sags or has pads coming out of... but its on the front of the collar.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that Nike strives for innovation and bettering every part of the uniform, but when it comes to this flywire, I'm just not buying in to it. That's all. I wasn't trying to call you out and say you are a phony, I just wanted some evidence/facts/reasons/logic as to the flywire.

I was making more of a rhetorical comment than asking a sincere question. I'm not trying to ruin the fun for everyone.

A bit of Devil's Advocate here - I know there isn't a stat for it, but I can't recall seeing players for my favorite team having their shoulder pads (the top flap portion, anyway) exposed in a game this season. I'm not a Nike fanboi or any other manufacturer fanboi, and I'm not saying FlyWire is why, but it's an odd thing to see the jersey fit so well in the shoulders.

I understand the materials aspect behind jersey cuts from Nike, but at some point, the aesthetics have to be fixed on either the franchise or Nike's end. Things with the Jets having grossly mismatched colors at the start, middle, and end of the game on green fabric is embarrassing.

[Kevin W.]

That's actually a good question to ask: is Nike attempting to address the "sweatbox" problem so it won't be so noticeable?

[Fresno St. Alum]

So was it Nike's idea for Texas A&M to look like Texas Tech that one game this year or was it A&M's idea? I don't like turning on the tv and not knowing who I'm watching anymore. minor tweaks are cool but a lot of stuff is over the top. I hope the NFL doesn't go crazy like college has. I see no need for the wedge of crowns on the the seahawks helmet.

I did like your high school design and the Wyoming stuff.

[ESTONES6]

No reason to get your panties in a bunch. I, or anyone else with independent thoughts, can't be expected to believe that this flywire material is so innovative and does everything its advertised to do, when its on ONE part, of the smallest, least affected parts of the uniform. I understand science is constantly evolving, but when you go from having the flywire on the front of the shouler pads for all these Pro Combat uniforms, and then it gets reduced to the front part of the collar... I just don't see many people buying in to it, especially if no one is allowed to really say what it does. It would be one thing if it was on the entire collar, on the sleeves, at the base of the jersey, around the pants and socks, etc. Stuff that actually falls or sags or has pads coming out of... but its on the front of the collar.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that Nike strives for innovation and bettering every part of the uniform, but when it comes to this flywire, I'm just not buying in to it. That's all. I wasn't trying to call you out and say you are a phony, I just wanted some evidence/facts/reasons/logic as to the flywire.

I was making more of a rhetorical comment than asking a sincere question. I'm not trying to ruin the fun for everyone.

A bit of Devil's Advocate here - I know there isn't a stat for it, but I can't recall seeing players for my favorite team having their shoulder pads (the top flap portion, anyway) exposed in a game this season. I'm not a Nike fanboi or any other manufacturer fanboi, and I'm not saying FlyWire is why, but it's an odd thing to see the jersey fit so well in the shoulders.

I understand the materials aspect behind jersey cuts from Nike, but at some point, the aesthetics have to be fixed on either the franchise or Nike's end. Things with the Jets having grossly mismatched colors at the start, middle, and end of the game on green fabric is embarrassing.

I've seen it a few times now, in multiple games, for multiple teams. But by playing devil's advocate (which I respect greatly) you have proved my point. If flywire was so innovative, why is it only on the front of the collar on not all the way around the collar? Why is it not on the shoulder pads near the sleeves? Why is it no around the base of the jersey? Why is it not around the knees of the pants? All these locations are where pads tend to slip or the fabric will dip and sag. That's the whole point I'm making. If the flywire is stronger and causes less material, why isn't ever seem of the jersey and pants lined in it? Why isn't it located in multiple spots on the uniform? Its on the front of the collar, the one spot where pads never, ever pop out of. One thing I have noticed is how easily the sleeve are tearing and riping on the new jerseys... so why aren't these being reinofrced with the flywire? If Nike does all this extensive R&D, is it possible that they completely missed the issue with the sleeves?

Again, don't take this the wrong way... I'm just trying to ask questions because it doesn't seem to be adding up.

[BrandMooreArt]

So was it Nike's idea for Texas A&M to look like Texas Tech that one game this year or was it A&M's idea? I don't like turning on the tv and not knowing who I'm watching anymore. minor tweaks are cool but a lot of stuff is over the top. I hope the NFL doesn't go crazy like college has. I see no need for the wedge of crowns on the the seahawks helmet.

I did like your high school design and the Wyoming stuff.

Texas A&M is an adidas school

[gdu]

ESTONES6: Really dude? I've answered this question several times already. Hold on, let me turn my sarcasm filter on. [sarcasm]Yes Nike is just a giant propaganda machine. We just throw out there for marketing's sake that doesn't do what we say it does so we can make more money! It's not like we work with current and former athletes, many of whom are actually employed at Nike, to make sure we continue to improve upon garment design from head to toe to make athletes more comfortable and perform better, nope, all we care about are the benjamins!!! consumers and what they know, it's really all a giant conspiracy so that we can get a swoosh ON EVERYTHING EVARRRRR!!!!! BWAHAHAHAHA[/sarcasm]

Honestly this is getting ridiculous. I can't tell you about future innovation or even the reasons behind why the tech people do what they do, but be assured there's massive amounts of research, design, and testing that goes on. WE DO NOT INCLUDE FEATURES ON OUR GARMENTS FOR NO REASON. Alright? Enough of this. Any further discussion about the damn flywire will result in this thread being shut down.

No reason to get your panties in a bunch. I, or anyone else with independent thoughts, can't be expected to believe that this flywire material is so innovative and does everything its advertised to do, when its on ONE part, of the smallest, least affected parts of the uniform. I understand science is constantly evolving, but when you go from having the flywire on the front of the shouler pads for all these Pro Combat uniforms, and then it gets reduced to the front part of the collar... I just don't see many people buying in to it, especially if no one is allowed to really say what it does. It would be one thing if it was on the entire collar, on the sleeves, at the base of the jersey, around the pants and socks, etc. Stuff that actually falls or sags or has pads coming out of... but its on the front of the collar.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that Nike strives for innovation and bettering every part of the uniform, but when it comes to this flywire, I'm just not buying in to it. That's all. I wasn't trying to call you out and say you are a phony, I just wanted some evidence/facts/reasons/logic as to the flywire.

I was making more of a rhetorical comment than asking a sincere question. I'm not trying to ruin the fun for everyone.

TCU's shoulder pads used to pop out of the neck hole all the time in 2010 when they were the original pro combat uniforms. Since the team moved to the speed machine template (which uses flywire in the neck hole) for the 2011 season, I haven't seen it happen a single time. That is why the change was made and as far as I can tell, it does work. Do I like the way it looks? No. If I were a player or equipment manager, would I like the functionality? Yes.

[rtrich11]

One thing I've noticed over the last few years in NCAA football and basketball is the numbers on some uniforms are really hard to read from any distance. This is for uniforms done by all the design/gear companies, so I'm not going to single one out. I've seen silver numbers on white, dark on dark with very thin non-white outlines, colored jerseys with the same color numbers, but with dark outlines. Basically, the top might look good, but I can't tell who is who.

Are there any rules or guidelines to follow pertaining to this, or is it just subjective? I would think the NFL has standards on this matter, but other leagues/sports don't seem to.

[gordie_delini]

CRichardson: See previous posts - I've answered this already.

Fresno St. Alum: As Brandon already mentioned, Texas A&M is an adidas school. Tech is an Under Armour school.

rtrich11: Generally with the NCAA there aren't any rules regarding number legibility. I'm not sure if there's a specific rule in the NFL about legibility, but they won't accept design proposals where numbers aren't easily seen from a distance.

[guest23]

ESTONES6: Really dude? I've answered this question several times already. Hold on, let me turn my sarcasm filter on. [sarcasm]Yes Nike is just a giant propaganda machine. We just throw out there for marketing's sake that doesn't do what we say it does so we can make more money! It's not like we work with current and former athletes, many of whom are actually employed at Nike, to make sure we continue to improve upon garment design from head to toe to make athletes more comfortable and perform better, nope, all we care about are the benjamins!!! consumers and what they know, it's really all a giant conspiracy so that we can get a swoosh ON EVERYTHING EVARRRRR!!!!! BWAHAHAHAHA[/sarcasm]

Honestly this is getting ridiculous. I can't tell you about future innovation or even the reasons behind why the tech people do what they do, but be assured there's massive amounts of research, design, and testing that goes on. WE DO NOT INCLUDE FEATURES ON OUR GARMENTS FOR NO REASON. Alright? Enough of this. Any further discussion about the damn flywire will result in this thread being shut down.

No reason to get your panties in a bunch. I, or anyone else with independent thoughts, can't be expected to believe that this flywire material is so innovative and does everything its advertised to do, when its on ONE part, of the smallest, least affected parts of the uniform. I understand science is constantly evolving, but when you go from having the flywire on the front of the shouler pads for all these Pro Combat uniforms, and then it gets reduced to the front part of the collar... I just don't see many people buying in to it, especially if no one is allowed to really say what it does. It would be one thing if it was on the entire collar, on the sleeves, at the base of the jersey, around the pants and socks, etc. Stuff that actually falls or sags or has pads coming out of... but its on the front of the collar.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that Nike strives for innovation and bettering every part of the uniform, but when it comes to this flywire, I'm just not buying in to it. That's all. I wasn't trying to call you out and say you are a phony, I just wanted some evidence/facts/reasons/logic as to the flywire.

I was making more of a rhetorical comment than asking a sincere question. I'm not trying to ruin the fun for everyone.

well said...there are many sports "innovations" that may seem beneficial but in reality they yield little to no benefit...flywire is a great example of how it appeared on this shoulders and has all but disappeared but for the uniforms designed off of team builder...same deal with the collars some teams have the same jersey template but the flywire is not consistently used...if it was that functional or beneficial all jerseys would incorporate it.

nike isn't the only culprit to market the idea of innovation but they perfected it.

its been said multiple times, Flywire strengthens material (collar) and allows for less overall material to be used. thats the point. thats what it does. its not some kind of trolling conspiracy where Nike is trying to pull something over on people. promising something from a product and not have it deliver is pure business failure. its not there to serve as a reminder of who made the jersey, thats what the logo does.

even if its a small step forward in uniform technology, isnt that worth it? arnt we supposed to push things forward and make things better? like i said before, its not marketing bull ; its not the only thing that separates their jersey from others, but if its there, its something, and im positive Nike wouldnt put it out there if they didnt believe in it. theres no reason for them to. the collar design takes advantage of "highlighting" it yes, but Nike dosent need to just do that for attention. they're at the top of their market.

as for teams like the Texans not wanting it, i think its safe to say they just value the design/look of what they ended up with over the functionality of all the Nike features. and Nike delivered for them.

sorry if you've spent any time in the consumer products industry...very rarely is marketing decoupled from product innovation...things such as plastic bottles are now advertised as eco-friendly because they contain less material when in fact those bottles were designed with the sole intent of cutting raw material costs in mind...the environmental aspect was a pure secondary benefit which has been exploited to the consumer via marketing.

I would say 50% of the products we buy are marketed as innovative or new and improved some way but offer marginal improvement year to year...if you are marketing seasonal lines that have to be sold in annually your marketing teams need to sell something that differentiates it from last season's models...other than changing colorways, incremental innovations are commonplace to create a sales story plain and simple.

many incremental innovations offer very little benefit or simply don't catch on as intended (flywire in football jerseys)...while other's plain suck and fail in the marketplace (remember the adidas powerband?)...the other true innovations are paradigm shifts in product design and often create new product categories (think moisture wicking baselayers).

[Moseph]

Thanks for this thread. It's really cool to get a behind the scenes look.

[debo0775]

I've seen it a few times now, in multiple games, for multiple teams. But by playing devil's advocate (which I respect greatly) you have proved my point. If flywire was so innovative, why is it only on the front of the collar on not all the way around the collar? Why is it not on the shoulder pads near the sleeves? Why is it no around the base of the jersey? Why is it not around the knees of the pants? All these locations are where pads tend to slip or the fabric will dip and sag. That's the whole point I'm making. If the flywire is stronger and causes less material, why isn't ever seem of the jersey and pants lined in it? Why isn't it located in multiple spots on the uniform? Its on the front of the collar, the one spot where pads never, ever pop out of. One thing I have noticed is how easily the sleeve are tearing and riping on the new jerseys... so why aren't these being reinofrced with the flywire? If Nike does all this extensive R&D, is it possible that they completely missed the issue with the sleeves?

Again, don't take this the wrong way... I'm just trying to ask questions because it doesn't seem to be adding up.

As a preface, I'm an aspiring engineer by trade. I, also, love great design. To me, though, great design absolutely has to be reflective of both the sensory appealing and also the functionally relevant (and, making an assumption, I think many here probably believe that to be true, too). I absolutely geek out with innovations in uniforms and helmet technology in football partly because I have fond memories of playing and partly because I get to see the extremes of design in terms of visual appeal and functionality. While uniform design isn't where I'll make my living, I can always learn something from what others are doing to improve my work/studies/whatever.

With that, here's my thought (and without having an understanding of precisely how the jersey is manufactured, I can't speak to the exact reason why FlyWire is as it is):

Having the flywire along the neck of the collar, assuming a well-fitting jersey, should extert some force across jersey at the top of the shoulder pads as well as in a slightly forward direction. Having this internal tension, I think, should make the jersey "stiffer" across the pads when worn. By putting the jersey on the pads, I'm guessing that the FlyWire is stretched to make the jersey snug on the pad surface. If a defender/player/whoever were to tug on the jersey, rather than stretching a la the "super stretchies" of the Adidas uniform, the jersey should just slide across the pad and not deform. Granted, all of this could be entirely wrong, but that's what I'd think the theory behind the FlyWire is.

As for not being in other locations, you have different situations to deal with. On the shoulders, having a material which should "stiffen" the jersey to stress may make it more difficult to move arms, legs, torso, whatever. That, I think, is why you don't see a FlyWire application (not that there aren't solutions to problems that could be found).

From an aesthetics standpoint, I absolutely think that seamstresses/tailors could apply a proper collar. For example, I don't see why the Packers couldn't have a FlyWire cut with their famous collar sewn over the top of the flywire application. Those kinds of decisions, I think (unless that application impacts FlyWire's performance...which I kind of doubt), are ones that reflect FlyWire being a design element. I don't think that it necessarly was intended to be, but it's a nice byproduct that people discuss Nike uniforms because of the collar.

[oldschoolvikings]

I don't see why the Packers couldn't have a FlyWire cut with their famous collar sewn over the top of the flywire application. Those kinds of decisions, I think (unless that application impacts FlyWire's performance...which I kind of doubt), are ones that reflect FlyWire being a design element. I don't think that it necessarly was intended to be, but it's a nice byproduct that people discuss Nike uniforms because of the collar.

I think , if I'm understanding what's being said correctly, is that there would be no point of having the flywire AND the collar. The idea is that the flywire takes the place of a traditional collar (giving structure to the neck opening) but isn't as heavy. If you have a collar you don't need flywire and vice versa.

[BrandMooreArt]

ESTONES6: Really dude? I've answered this question several times already. Hold on, let me turn my sarcasm filter on. [sarcasm]Yes Nike is just a giant propaganda machine. We just throw out there for marketing's sake that doesn't do what we say it does so we can make more money! It's not like we work with current and former athletes, many of whom are actually employed at Nike, to make sure we continue to improve upon garment design from head to toe to make athletes more comfortable and perform better, nope, all we care about are the benjamins!!! consumers and what they know, it's really all a giant conspiracy so that we can get a swoosh ON EVERYTHING EVARRRRR!!!!! BWAHAHAHAHA[/sarcasm]

Honestly this is getting ridiculous. I can't tell you about future innovation or even the reasons behind why the tech people do what they do, but be assured there's massive amounts of research, design, and testing that goes on. WE DO NOT INCLUDE FEATURES ON OUR GARMENTS FOR NO REASON. Alright? Enough of this. Any further discussion about the damn flywire will result in this thread being shut down.

No reason to get your panties in a bunch. I, or anyone else with independent thoughts, can't be expected to believe that this flywire material is so innovative and does everything its advertised to do, when its on ONE part, of the smallest, least affected parts of the uniform. I understand science is constantly evolving, but when you go from having the flywire on the front of the shouler pads for all these Pro Combat uniforms, and then it gets reduced to the front part of the collar... I just don't see many people buying in to it, especially if no one is allowed to really say what it does. It would be one thing if it was on the entire collar, on the sleeves, at the base of the jersey, around the pants and socks, etc. Stuff that actually falls or sags or has pads coming out of... but its on the front of the collar.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that Nike strives for innovation and bettering every part of the uniform, but when it comes to this flywire, I'm just not buying in to it. That's all. I wasn't trying to call you out and say you are a phony, I just wanted some evidence/facts/reasons/logic as to the flywire.

I was making more of a rhetorical comment than asking a sincere question. I'm not trying to ruin the fun for everyone.

well said...there are many sports "innovations" that may seem beneficial but in reality they yield little to no benefit...flywire is a great example of how it appeared on this shoulders and has all but disappeared but for the uniforms designed off of team builder...same deal with the collars some teams have the same jersey template but the flywire is not consistently used...if it was that functional or beneficial all jerseys would incorporate it.

nike isn't the only culprit to market the idea of innovation but they perfected it.

its been said multiple times, Flywire strengthens material (collar) and allows for less overall material to be used. thats the point. thats what it does. its not some kind of trolling conspiracy where Nike is trying to pull something over on people. promising something from a product and not have it deliver is pure business failure. its not there to serve as a reminder of who made the jersey, thats what the logo does.

even if its a small step forward in uniform technology, isnt that worth it? arnt we supposed to push things forward and make things better? like i said before, its not marketing bull ; its not the only thing that separates their jersey from others, but if its there, its something, and im positive Nike wouldnt put it out there if they didnt believe in it. theres no reason for them to. the collar design takes advantage of "highlighting" it yes, but Nike dosent need to just do that for attention. they're at the top of their market.

as for teams like the Texans not wanting it, i think its safe to say they just value the design/look of what they ended up with over the functionality of all the Nike features. and Nike delivered for them.

sorry if you've spent any time in the consumer products industry...very rarely is marketing decoupled from product innovation...things such as plastic bottles are now advertised as eco-friendly because they contain less material when in fact those bottles were designed with the sole intent of cutting raw material costs in mind...the environmental aspect was a pure secondary benefit which has been exploited to the consumer via marketing.

I would say 50% of the products we buy are marketed as innovative or new and improved some way but offer marginal improvement year to year...if you are marketing seasonal lines that have to be sold in annually your marketing teams need to sell something that differentiates it from last season's models...other than changing colorways, incremental innovations are commonplace to create a sales story plain and simple.

many incremental innovations offer very little benefit or simply don't catch on as intended (flywire in football jerseys)...while other's plain suck and fail in the marketplace (remember the adidas powerband?)...the other true innovations are paradigm shifts in product design and often create new product categories (think moisture wicking baselayers).

you're pulling an example of a carless, irresponsible, snake oil salesman (water bottles) and comparing it to Nike flywire? i never said there arnt those types of people/advertisers out there, but i really dont think they're in the Nike design departments. if we're going to criticize the company on ethics of manufacturing and marketing, you KNOW we can go to other branches/departments of Nike, but i dont think they're in Portland.

im not sure how you feel about the Flywire still. is it little innovation, or is it a complete failure? GDU just provided his experience and it seems to be working as intended. rarely is innovation a giant leap

[debo0775]

I don't see why the Packers couldn't have a FlyWire cut with their famous collar sewn over the top of the flywire application. Those kinds of decisions, I think (unless that application impacts FlyWire's performance...which I kind of doubt), are ones that reflect FlyWire being a design element. I don't think that it necessarly was intended to be, but it's a nice byproduct that people discuss Nike uniforms because of the collar.

I think , if I'm understanding what's being said correctly, is that there would be no point of having the flywire AND the collar. The idea is that the flywire takes the place of a traditional collar (giving structure to the neck opening) but isn't as heavy. If you have a collar you don't need flywire and vice versa.

It's possible that that's the case. I completely understand the concern for keeping uniforms light, but I don't think that that concern is eliminated with an application of a collar. It may be overkill, but it's a design element that would help teams move forward with technology and retain tradition.

To me, the weight issue stems more from a total use of material and material construction. While an applied collar would add weight, I highly doubt that a few ounces of material (if that) around the neck of a player is going to be noticed by said player.

[Coheed]

I don't see why the Packers couldn't have a FlyWire cut with their famous collar sewn over the top of the flywire application. Those kinds of decisions, I think (unless that application impacts FlyWire's performance...which I kind of doubt), are ones that reflect FlyWire being a design element. I don't think that it necessarly was intended to be, but it's a nice byproduct that people discuss Nike uniforms because of the collar.

I think , if I'm understanding what's being said correctly, is that there would be no point of having the flywire AND the collar. The idea is that the flywire takes the place of a traditional collar (giving structure to the neck opening) but isn't as heavy. If you have a collar you don't need flywire and vice versa.

It's possible that that's the case. I completely understand the concern for keeping uniforms light, but I don't think that that concern is eliminated with an application of a collar. It may be overkill, but it's a design element that would help teams move forward with technology and retain tradition.

To me, the weight issue stems more from a total use of material and material construction. While an applied collar would add weight, I highly doubt that a few ounces of material (if that) around the neck of a player is going to be noticed by said player.

They could have gone the Patriots route with the collar. They don't use the flywire, but they do use the new template Nike rolled out this season. It would be the same "cut" at the collar, just without the design. So, it's possible. They just simply chose not to.

[guest23]

ESTONES6: Really dude? I've answered this question several times already. Hold on, let me turn my sarcasm filter on. [sarcasm]Yes Nike is just a giant propaganda machine. We just throw out there for marketing's sake that doesn't do what we say it does so we can make more money! It's not like we work with current and former athletes, many of whom are actually employed at Nike, to make sure we continue to improve upon garment design from head to toe to make athletes more comfortable and perform better, nope, all we care about are the benjamins!!! consumers and what they know, it's really all a giant conspiracy so that we can get a swoosh ON EVERYTHING EVARRRRR!!!!! BWAHAHAHAHA[/sarcasm]

Honestly this is getting ridiculous. I can't tell you about future innovation or even the reasons behind why the tech people do what they do, but be assured there's massive amounts of research, design, and testing that goes on. WE DO NOT INCLUDE FEATURES ON OUR GARMENTS FOR NO REASON. Alright? Enough of this. Any further discussion about the damn flywire will result in this thread being shut down.

No reason to get your panties in a bunch. I, or anyone else with independent thoughts, can't be expected to believe that this flywire material is so innovative and does everything its advertised to do, when its on ONE part, of the smallest, least affected parts of the uniform. I understand science is constantly evolving, but when you go from having the flywire on the front of the shouler pads for all these Pro Combat uniforms, and then it gets reduced to the front part of the collar... I just don't see many people buying in to it, especially if no one is allowed to really say what it does. It would be one thing if it was on the entire collar, on the sleeves, at the base of the jersey, around the pants and socks, etc. Stuff that actually falls or sags or has pads coming out of... but its on the front of the collar.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that Nike strives for innovation and bettering every part of the uniform, but when it comes to this flywire, I'm just not buying in to it. That's all. I wasn't trying to call you out and say you are a phony, I just wanted some evidence/facts/reasons/logic as to the flywire.

I was making more of a rhetorical comment than asking a sincere question. I'm not trying to ruin the fun for everyone.

well said...there are many sports "innovations" that may seem beneficial but in reality they yield little to no benefit...flywire is a great example of how it appeared on this shoulders and has all but disappeared but for the uniforms designed off of team builder...same deal with the collars some teams have the same jersey template but the flywire is not consistently used...if it was that functional or beneficial all jerseys would incorporate it.

nike isn't the only culprit to market the idea of innovation but they perfected it.

its been said multiple times, Flywire strengthens material (collar) and allows for less overall material to be used. thats the point. thats what it does. its not some kind of trolling conspiracy where Nike is trying to pull something over on people. promising something from a product and not have it deliver is pure business failure. its not there to serve as a reminder of who made the jersey, thats what the logo does.

even if its a small step forward in uniform technology, isnt that worth it? arnt we supposed to push things forward and make things better? like i said before, its not marketing bull ; its not the only thing that separates their jersey from others, but if its there, its something, and im positive Nike wouldnt put it out there if they didnt believe in it. theres no reason for them to. the collar design takes advantage of "highlighting" it yes, but Nike dosent need to just do that for attention. they're at the top of their market.

as for teams like the Texans not wanting it, i think its safe to say they just value the design/look of what they ended up with over the functionality of all the Nike features. and Nike delivered for them.

sorry if you've spent any time in the consumer products industry...very rarely is marketing decoupled from product innovation...things such as plastic bottles are now advertised as eco-friendly because they contain less material when in fact those bottles were designed with the sole intent of cutting raw material costs in mind...the environmental aspect was a pure secondary benefit which has been exploited to the consumer via marketing.

I would say 50% of the products we buy are marketed as innovative or new and improved some way but offer marginal improvement year to year...if you are marketing seasonal lines that have to be sold in annually your marketing teams need to sell something that differentiates it from last season's models...other than changing colorways, incremental innovations are commonplace to create a sales story plain and simple.

many incremental innovations offer very little benefit or simply don't catch on as intended (flywire in football jerseys)...while other's plain suck and fail in the marketplace (remember the adidas powerband?)...the other true innovations are paradigm shifts in product design and often create new product categories (think moisture wicking baselayers).

you're pulling an example of a carless, irresponsible, snake oil salesman (water bottles) and comparing it to Nike flywire? i never said there arnt those types of people/advertisers out there, but i really dont think they're in the Nike design departments. if we're going to criticize the company on ethics of manufacturing and marketing, you KNOW we can go to other branches/departments of Nike, but i dont think they're in Portland.

im not sure how you feel about the Flywire still. is it little innovation, or is it a complete failure? GDU just provided his experience and it seems to be working as intended. rarely is innovation a giant leap

I think flywire is an interesting concept and construction technique...the concept isn't entirely original when applied to jerseys as several nfl teams would essentially reinforce shoulder yokes, via custom tailoring with additional seams to prevent stretching and tearing (bucs, bears, cowboys)...given there are other jerseys made by nike that are used on the playing field that use zero flywire, and I doubt the no flywire group's performance has been inhibited due to having slightly heavier fabrics/materials or lacking reinforcement. I think the best application of flywire has been in footwear. Football jerseys not so much. Is it a failure? No, but it's value in football jerseys is marginal at best.

I admire your idealistic view of nike and its r&d but let's be real here, they are a branding/marketing company first and foremost. They are one of the best at what they do much like apple and coca-cola, they all spend a ton of money on r&d every year but the it's their ability to market their products as innovative which has put them on the map, not the other way around. It's easy to forget the miscues that these companies have but they have a ton of them. Even the innovations that stick may only have a 5 year shelf life before the consumer grows tired and they move on to the next new trend. That's how it works in the big branded product biz.

Also if you want some more sports related examples of innovative burnouts we can get a list going I suppose. Adi power band was one. I'll also add pump technology shoes, the nike recycled plastic soccer jerseys, rbk 1st gen edge jerseys.