NBA C Jason Collins comes out as gay

[BlueSky]

@ illwauk, in my opinion it IS equally reprehensible. Feel free to disagree with the understanding that it doesn't make you right.

As for relevant to the discussion, we passed that exit ten miles back.

Sorry, but I really don't see how someone losing their livelihood because of their sexuality is comparable to unwarranted claims of discrimination... especially when there's so many politicians and an entire AM talk radio-listening segment of the population willing to undermine even the most obviously legitimate claims.

Taking it another direction, I agree that it's reprehensible. I'll even agree that it is equally so.

But why can't it ever just be "Firing someone for being gay is wrong" and leave it at that? Why does it have to be "Sure, firing someone for being gay is wrong, but they do it too!" I don't get that.

Because if you want to look at something fairly it's important to consider both sides - in this case, the system and those who would abuse it. For example, gay marriage. I believe gay people should have the same legal rights as any married couple. At the same time, I understand the objections of those who believe (and have a right to believe) that marriage is defined as between a man and woman. So in my opinion civil unions would be a reasonable compromise.

Others will trot out the "separate but equal" argument et al and I respect their opinions even though I disagree. What I don't respect are people to whom compromise is a dirty word. They want everything their way and are convinced they alone are the righteous among us.

Not to Godwin this thread, but that's exactly the argument used by holocaust deniers.

I understand your want for compromise, and that's the right way to go in many instances; but there are certain issues where it's just plain dishonest, morally and intellectually, to justify certian ideas and perpectives... particularly when they're outright discriminatory based on something the discriminated group has no control over. The idea that it's okay to deny LGBT people the same rights granted to the rest of us happens to be one of those instances.

This from the person who chided me about supposedly bringing something irrelevant to the discussion into the thread. But since you want to throw that in, it's not really much of a comparison. The Holocaust is fact. Deniers can be refuted with evidence. Any reasonable person who considers any or all sides of the Holocaust and the evidence cannot reach any conclusion other than that it occurred. End of story. But with the issue at hand it's not that cut and dried. We all have our beliefs and opinions but there's no irrefutable truth to point at. I can say the sky is green and you can say it's blue and then you can point at it and say, "Look, duma***, it's right there and it's blue." And what can I say other than maybe, "That's really ironic considering my user name"? This goes back to what I said before: there are those here (again not necessarily you) who think that just because they see something a certain way it becomes fact or truth. It does not and that goes for both sides here.

Because if you want to look at something fairly it's important to consider both sides - in this case, the system and those who would abuse it. For example, gay marriage. I believe gay people should have the same legal rights as any married couple. At the same time, I understand the objections of those who believe (and have a right to believe) that marriage is defined as between a man and woman. So in my opinion civil unions would be a reasonable compromise.

Others will trot out the "separate but equal" argument et al and I respect their opinions even though I disagree. What I don't respect are people to whom compromise is a dirty word. They want everything their way and are convinced they alone are the righteous among us.

Sometimes "compromise" is a dirty word.

The 3/5ths compromise was reprehensible. "Separate but equal" was a compromise, and that was reprehensible (good of you to note its place in this discussion).

Sky, I really value your perspective, so please consider this question: why do we need a compromise on gay marriage, again? Besides that some people want the right to discriminate? No church is ever going to be forced to marry gay people if it doesn't want to (unless you can find a single instance of the Catholic Church being forced to marry a divorcee). So churches that wish to should be allowed to, churches that don't won't be forced to, and America (to quote the only person who testified under oath in support of Prop 8), will be a little more American.

I think those are valid points. But the last time I attempted to explain why I also understand the opposing point of view, some here took it as if I was advocating those views. As for compromise, that's what happens when two sides disagree but still want a solution. I'd like to see the results of a poll in which only LGBT people could vote. 1. Does it matter to you whether it's civil unions or marriage? 2. If you could have civil unions now or marriage in ten years, which would you choose? That's one thing that's pretty ironic about this whole discussion: the majority of people debating it here are (I assume) straight.

I have a gay colleague and he asked me one day to tell him my views on gay marriage. So I did - exactly what I explained here about civil unions being a reasonable compromise. He said, "I agree. I don't see why people get so hung up on calling it marriage." Obviously his view doesn't validate that opinion for a whole population but I think it's kind of funny that some of the posters here are far more torqued up about it than at least one gay person.

Look, I saw all this from a unique perspective when I worked airline accident response. Even some straight people say, "Oh, we're not getting married. We don't need a piece of paper blah blah." Well, death changes that. On more than one occasion we had straight or gay partners excluded from funerals, estates, all of that because they had no legal standing. It was heartbreaking to see people who had loved and been committed to someone for many years treated as if they didn't exist by their partners' families. So yeah, I'm all for equal legal rights. Civil unions accomplishes that. Why get tangled up in semantics?

[pcgd]

But if you don't see why they can't call them civil unions, why can't you just call them married?

It'd be like putting an asterisk by their union. You get all te benefits but... You aren't married...

That's seperate but equal all over again.

[OnWis97]

And it seems to come from the place of "OK, it's fine to give them the rights and responsibilities, but we need that little reminder that they are 'less' than the rest of us."

If all the rights and responsibilities are the same than the only reason I can see for needing to compromise is that there is something less than equal about gay couples. If there's not than there's no need for compromise.

[Foxxtrot44]

Why do folks who point to the Bible when disapproving of homosexuality remain silent on other areas that the Bible touches upon? Where is their scorn for people with tattoos? The Bible says God forbids them. But I don't remember anyone giving whichever player broke the "tattoo barrier" a hard time or any of the Westboro clowns with a "God hates inkies" sign.

Looks like we need some precision-guided lightning bolts to take of a bunch of douchebags with bible verses and citations tattooed on their bodies.

I've never found this issue very odd...but only because I enjoy studying history vs Biblical history.This is one of those things that comes down to Law vs.Tradition and what people therefore must obey to show appropriate deference to their God...but I'll spare you all the book I could write about that. Simply if Paul had kept himself from making a reference to Canaanite tradition in the New Testament, this conversation would probably be very different today.

[Gothamite]

But if you don't see why they can't call them civil unions, why can't you just call them married?

It'd be like putting an asterisk by their union. You get all te benefits but... You aren't married...

That's seperate but equal all over again.

Exactly. It's not "semantics" at all, it's forcing gay people to settle for a separate institution that may or may not carry with it all the benefits of the real thing.

Where's the need for a compromise, anyway?

[Sport]

But if you don't see why they can't call them civil unions, why can't you just call them married?

It'd be like putting an asterisk by their union. You get all te benefits but... You aren't married...

That's seperate but equal all over again.

Exactly. It's not "semantics" at all, it's forcing gay people to settle for a separate institution that may or may not carry with it all the benefits of the real thing.

Where's the need for a compromise, anyway?

There is none. Compromise implies that two sides have a case for their position so it's necessary to meet in the middle. In this issue there's a side who is fighting for a basic human right and the other side is fighting for bigotry and outdated thinking. I see no reason why basic human rights have to meet bigotry in the middle.

Essentially, prejudice doesn't deserve compromise.

[OnWis97]

But if you don't see why they can't call them civil unions, why can't you just call them married?

It'd be like putting an asterisk by their union. You get all te benefits but... You aren't married...

That's seperate but equal all over again.

Exactly. It's not "semantics" at all, it's forcing gay people to settle for a separate institution that may or may not carry with it all the benefits of the real thing.

Where's the need for a compromise, anyway?

There is none. Compromise implies that two sides have a case for their position so it's necessary to meet in the middle. In this issue there's a side who is fighting for a basic human right and the other side is fighting for bigotry and outdated thinking. I see no reason why basic human rights have to meet bigotry in the middle.

Essentially, prejudice doesn't deserve compromise.

So "They can go to our schools, but they still have to use different drinking fountains" would not have worked?

The only compromise would have been bigots clinging to all the segregation they can get. And I see a pretty solid parallel here.

[njmeadowlanders]

The only place I can find a "need" for a compromise would be from those who claim it's a sin or forbidden or whatever in the bible.

But that's where I always counter with something along the lines of the bible should have zero place in the law in America. You know, that whole separation of Church and State thing.

Don't marry gay people in your church if you're against it. Just don't stop others from living their lives as they so choose to do.

[nuordr]

This comic says everything that is wrong in today's society.

[Sport]

This comic says everything that is wrong in today's society.

Oh great.

Maybe I'm being too literal with that comic, but when was the last time a media member told Tim Tebow to keep something to himself? When was it? I'd love to know the last time the media chose not to cover Tim Tebow because I've been asking for it to happen for years and we're still talking about him.

I wish that comic were true.

[Punch]

.

[nuordr]

Okay seriously. I have a question, why do people feel the need to come out to the world announcing that they are gay? I have never understood why people feel the need to make a big announcement about themselves. You don't see the man cheating on his wife come out and announce they are a cheater do ya? You don't see the stalker coming out and saying, hey, look at me, I stalk people do ya? Could someone please explain this to me?

[Kevin W.]

Okay seriously. I have a question, why do people feel the need to come out to the world announcing that they are gay? I have never understood why people feel the need to make a big announcement about themselves. You don't see the man cheating on his wife come out and announce they are a cheater do ya? You don't see the stalker coming out and saying, hey, look at me, I stalk people do ya? Could someone please explain this to me?

It's about not hiding who they are from the world.

[Sport]

Okay seriously. I have a question, why do people feel the need to come out to the world announcing that they are gay? I have never understood why people feel the need to make a big announcement about themselves. You don't see the man cheating on his wife come out and announce they are a cheater do ya? You don't see the stalker coming out and saying, hey, look at me, I stalk people do ya? Could someone please explain this to me?

Wow.

Because being gay is a biological predisposition and in order to live happy lives they feel that it's better to be open and honest than to keep something innate to themselves for their entire lives.

And also, you couldn't be more insulting by painting gays in the same vein as adulterers and stalkers. Not the same thing at all.

[nuordr]

Okay seriously. I have a question, why do people feel the need to come out to the world announcing that they are gay? I have never understood why people feel the need to make a big announcement about themselves. You don't see the man cheating on his wife come out and announce they are a cheater do ya? You don't see the stalker coming out and saying, hey, look at me, I stalk people do ya? Could someone please explain this to me?

It's about not hiding who they are from the world.

I suppose I am old school, but what other people do is their business and I do not need to know and neither should my children. It's bad enough having to tell them that Uncle Gary is unable to have kids so that is why he doesn't get married to a woman.

[nuordr]

Okay seriously. I have a question, why do people feel the need to come out to the world announcing that they are gay? I have never understood why people feel the need to make a big announcement about themselves. You don't see the man cheating on his wife come out and announce they are a cheater do ya? You don't see the stalker coming out and saying, hey, look at me, I stalk people do ya? Could someone please explain this to me?

Wow.

Because being gay is a biological predisposition and in order to live happy lives they feel that it's better to be open and honest than to keep something innate to themselves for their entire lives.

And also, you couldn't be more insulting by painting gays in the same vein as adulterers and stalkers. Not the same thing at all.

'

I was not painting people in any certain way, I was just trying to use examples of people who hide what they do....I am sorry if you were offended.

[Sport]

Okay seriously. I have a question, why do people feel the need to come out to the world announcing that they are gay? I have never understood why people feel the need to make a big announcement about themselves. You don't see the man cheating on his wife come out and announce they are a cheater do ya? You don't see the stalker coming out and saying, hey, look at me, I stalk people do ya? Could someone please explain this to me?

Wow.

Because being gay is a biological predisposition and in order to live happy lives they feel that it's better to be open and honest than to keep something innate to themselves for their entire lives.

And also, you couldn't be more insulting by painting gays in the same vein as adulterers and stalkers. Not the same thing at all.

'

I was not painting people in any certain way, I was just trying to use examples of people who hide what they do....I am sorry if you were offended.

So hide that you're a straight man. Never tell anyone about your spouse and/or partners. Never talk about who you think is attractive. If you get sick and have to go to the hospital, your partner shouldn't visit you because that would reveal that you're straight.

If your mom dies, don't print your spouse's name in her obituary (http://www.progresso...t-decision.html) because who needs to see that?

Asking you to hide your sexuality is the same thing as asking a gay person to hide theirs.

The times are changing for the better and your kids are going to live in that world whether you like it or not.

[slapshot]

Yeah, bad example.

I'm seeing more and more of that Tebow/Collins comparison in my Facebook feed as well, and almost all come from Right Wing / Conservative pages or religious ones. And it's incredibly ironic, that disagreeing or condemning those with a trait that most of those posters believe is a "chosen lifestyle", comes from people whose faith is also a "chosen lifestyle".

[nuordr]

Okay seriously. I have a question, why do people feel the need to come out to the world announcing that they are gay? I have never understood why people feel the need to make a big announcement about themselves. You don't see the man cheating on his wife come out and announce they are a cheater do ya? You don't see the stalker coming out and saying, hey, look at me, I stalk people do ya? Could someone please explain this to me?

Wow.

Because being gay is a biological predisposition and in order to live happy lives they feel that it's better to be open and honest than to keep something innate to themselves for their entire lives.

And also, you couldn't be more insulting by painting gays in the same vein as adulterers and stalkers. Not the same thing at all.

'

I was not painting people in any certain way, I was just trying to use examples of people who hide what they do....I am sorry if you were offended.

So hide that you're a straight man. Never tell anyone about your spouse and/or partners. Never talk about who you think is attractive. If you get sick and have to go to the hospital, your partner shouldn't visit you because that would reveal that you're straight.

If your mom dies, don't print your spouse's name in her obituary (http://www.progresso...t-decision.html) because who needs to see that?

The times are changing for the better and your kids are going to live in that world whether you like it or not.

Thanks for your input, but I will just stick with my Christian beliefs. Once again, if you were offended I do sincerely apologize.

[Sport]

Okay seriously. I have a question, why do people feel the need to come out to the world announcing that they are gay? I have never understood why people feel the need to make a big announcement about themselves. You don't see the man cheating on his wife come out and announce they are a cheater do ya? You don't see the stalker coming out and saying, hey, look at me, I stalk people do ya? Could someone please explain this to me?

Wow.

Because being gay is a biological predisposition and in order to live happy lives they feel that it's better to be open and honest than to keep something innate to themselves for their entire lives.

And also, you couldn't be more insulting by painting gays in the same vein as adulterers and stalkers. Not the same thing at all.

'

I was not painting people in any certain way, I was just trying to use examples of people who hide what they do....I am sorry if you were offended.

So hide that you're a straight man. Never tell anyone about your spouse and/or partners. Never talk about who you think is attractive. If you get sick and have to go to the hospital, your partner shouldn't visit you because that would reveal that you're straight.

If your mom dies, don't print your spouse's name in her obituary (http://www.progresso...t-decision.html) because who needs to see that?

The times are changing for the better and your kids are going to live in that world whether you like it or not.

Thanks for your input, but I will just stick with my Christian beliefs. Once again, if you were offended I do sincerely apologize.

I was raised in the church and my sister is a youth pastor (who has no problems with gay people whatsoever). I have Christian beliefs. Treating people with kindness and tolerance is my chief Christian belief. The only time I have a hard time doing that is with the intolerant.

I don't know if you're intolerant as much as you're ignorant. I'd read some literature and educate yourself. I'd rather you do that than just keep apologizing and vowing to protect your kids from things that aren't harmful.