NBA C Jason Collins comes out as gay

[Gothamite]

Nobody's saying that Christianits don't have a right to their opinion. They do, and we have the right to criticize them for it on occasion. Opinions aren't consequence-free.

In my opinion, Brussard crossed the line when he claimed to speak for all Christianity and set himself up as the arbiter of other people's faith. That was a profoundly stupid statement, and he's rightly taking a lot of heat for having made it.

What those Christianists dont have is the right to deny other citizens their equal civil rights. America doesn't work that way..

[riki]

How valuable is the sick child's right to "the entitlement to his opinion" when his parents think prayer is better medication?

Some people's can't express their opinions. Some people's opinions don't matter.

"We have Freedom of Speech" is an extremely problematic idea.

[Viper]

Back onto topic (and, being a little late to this thread and having just skimmed through its last couple of pages, no doubt repeating someone else's point by now):

Jason Collins hasn't broken any new ground, yet. He has yet to play a single NBA game as an openly gay man. If/when he does (alas, we'll have to wait at least until November to find out), then we can celebrate in earnest. But for all he or we know right now, he may never get the chance - in which case this is all much ado about Robbie Rogers redux.

[njmeadowlanders]

No matter how much you disagree with some people, every body is entitled to an opinion.

It's that easy?

Yes, it's a really simple concept. Even those psychopaths from the Westboro Baptist Church are entitled to the ability to spew their venom.

And unfortunately, they're going to attempt to spew some more at the next OKC/Rockets game. Saw it on Twitter.

Spoiler Tag for the image of their "Poster" in case you don't want to know/see it:

Such awful people. Really awful.

[Gothamite]

How valuable is the sick child's right to "the entitlement to his opinion" when his parents think prayer is better medication?

Some people's can't express their opinions. Some people's opinions don't matter.

"We have Freedom of Speech" is an extremely problematic idea.

That's not freedom of speech.

[Billy B]

Back onto topic (and, being a little late to this thread and having just skimmed through its last couple of pages, no doubt repeating someone else's point by now):

Jason Collins hasn't broken any new ground, yet. He has yet to play a single NBA game as an openly gay man. If/when he does (alas, we'll have to wait at least until November to find out), then we can celebrate in earnest. But for all he or we know right now, he may never get the chance - in which case this is all much ado about Robbie Rogers redux.

On a related note, it's looking like Robbie Rogers is getting closer to getting back on the pitch. He's starting to train with the Galaxy and it looks like the Galaxy (and some other teams) will try to deal with the Fire to get his rights. The Fire say they don't want to trade his rights, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Rogers playing in MLS with the Galaxy sometime soon.

[Kevin W.]

How valuable is the sick child's right to "the entitlement to his opinion" when his parents think prayer is better medication?

Some people's can't express their opinions. Some people's opinions don't matter.

"We have Freedom of Speech" is an extremely problematic idea.

Except that's not an issue of freedom of speech. Freedom of speech only involves the government censorship of speech.

This is only about the fact that we live in a society that permits the free exchange of ideas, even if some of them are pig-headed. I may be a Christian who believes more in the parts of the Bible about loving one another than the parts that say gays are an abomination but that doesn't mean I think those who disagree with me shouldn't be allowed to say what they want. It's a free society and I wouldn't have it any other way.

In any case, freedom of speech is never a "problematic idea."

[cmm]

Why do folks who point to the Bible when disapproving of homosexuality remain silent on other areas that the Bible touches upon? Where is their scorn for people with tattoos? The Bible says God forbids them. But I don't remember anyone giving whichever player broke the "tattoo barrier" a hard time or any of the Westboro clowns with a "God hates inkies" sign.

[Gothamite]

In the NBA? Broussard wouldn't have time to talk about anything but.

[The_Admiral]

He's name-dropping freaking Zizek and generally making no sense in any of his s.-of-c. posts? max

[riki]

here's my point: saying "we live in a society that permits the free exchange of ideas/we have freedom of speech" is only true for as far as you believe yer ideas are exchanged equally, right? "That yer ideas are your own" is even a reason why Christianity don't jive with the First Amendment, because Christians get electrical impulses from Jesus who tells them what to wear.

Problematic because ppl always use this expression to make an issue disappear while attempting to be optimistic. "We have these rights," is ridiculous. "What rights we don't have" are not as easily known to people as "freedom of speech." Children don't "have Freedom of Speech." Are they gay? Ok, that last part didn't make sense.

I am saying this: authorities write, enforce, and interpret the constitution for us. I am jealous. Any time I hear some guy quote the Constitution like the Bible, I have the same reaction. I throw half my body out the car window and drag my face through the street.

How can you prove you "have freedom of speech?"

[Sport]

Why do folks who point to the Bible when disapproving of homosexuality remain silent on other areas that the Bible touches upon? Where is their scorn for people with tattoos? The Bible says God forbids them. But I don't remember anyone giving whichever player broke the "tattoo barrier" a hard time or any of the Westboro clowns with a "God hates inkies" sign.

Which is the point I made a couple pages back when a bible verse was pulled out.

I think the answer to your question is because homosexuality is "ewww, yucky, gross" (not my thoughts, important to note) to these people whereas a tattoo or cutting your hair short or eating ham or any of the other rules nobody cares about don't elicit the same visceral reaction. Plus sex in general has always made religious people uncomfortable.

Remember, it wasn't that long ago that Elvis wasn't allowed to have hips. In 50 years an athlete (or anyone) being condemned for his/her sexuality will seem just as ridiculous.

[BBTV]

EDIT: I hope that a few of you either have gay children someday or have a brother or sister come out to you sometime. Stick your jesus and your fears up your a$$.

[Gothamite]

That's why Collins's coming out is so important - the more people realize they know gay people (even famous people they only feel like they "know"), the more they recognize that gay people are not only a diverse group but staggeringly normal to boot, the faster attitudes change.

I told my 7-year-old the Jackie Robinson story the other day. The whole bit; Negro Leagues, Dixie Walker, Pee Wee'd embrace. His response was exactly the same as when I explained the opposition to gay marriage: "People thought some funny things."

How can you prove you "have freedom of speech?"

Well, I think posting rambling screeds online without the government arresting you is a pretty good place to start.

Seriously, dude. Not helping.

[pcgd]

If you don't agree with gay marriage, don't get gay married. Its that simple. Why would anyone want to restrict your fellow Americans the same rights that you have just because of who they love? I say always err on the side of more freedom.

And before the slippery slope crap starts...it stops right there: 2 people of any gender. It won't go to multiple people (although I would argue who cares if everyone consents), it won't go to people marrying dogs or trees. If 2 guys who aren't gay want to get married for tax purposes or benefits, so be it. Because guess what..nothing is stoping a man and a woman from doing that same thing right now.

[BBTV]

I also love the "I don't care what they do as long as they don't rub it in my face" stance as a way of saying that you're not homophobic. Guess what - straight people rub it in their faces every second of every day. It's a sizeable enough part of the population that it can't be written off as a "we can't accomdate 1 out of a million people" type of thing. If you don't want it "rubbed in your face", then you don't accept it.

[OnWis97]

That's why Collins's coming out is so important - the more people realize they know gay people (even famous people they only feel like they "know"), the more they recognize that gay people are not only a diverse group but staggeringly normal to boot, the faster attitudes change.

True. I agree with those who say that this will matter a lot more if he ends up playing next year, but it's still a big deal either way. Even if he's done, look at the stir it's caused. It will never be the same as, say, Jackie Robinson for a few reasons. It will be more along the lines of Magic Johnson. It's not talked about much, but I don't think you can overestimate the importance of Magic Johnson moving us forward in our thinking about HIV/AIDS. He probably saved lives just by helping remind us that heterosexuals can also contract the disease and that, yeah, it could happen to anyone. Collins may not (particularly if he does not play again) be as big of a splash as Magic (given that we are much further on our thinking about gays right now than we were about HIV in 1991), but he's a "milestone domino" to fall, if you will.

[njmeadowlanders]

If you don't agree with gay marriage, don't get gay married. Its that simple. Why would anyone want to restrict your fellow Americans the same rights that you have just because of who they love? I say always err on the side of more freedom.

And before the slippery slope crap starts...it stops right there: 2 people of any gender. It won't go to multiple people (although I would argue who cares if everyone consents), it won't go to people marrying dogs or trees. If 2 guys who aren't gay want to get married for tax purposes or benefits, so be it. Because guess what..nothing is stoping a man and a woman from doing that same thing right now.

Just to note as a CPA: If gay marriage is legalized it would raise more tax dollars for the nation. Married couples are penalized by the tax code in general. As it is now both partners would have to file single tax returns and split items 50/50 such as property taxes on homes they own jointly, mortgage interest on the same, charitable contributions they make together, etc.

I had a few gay clients this past tax season and ran some comparisons. I had one such couple that would have owed approx. $9,000 more to the IRS had they been married instead of what they owed as separate single filers (sometimes the circumstances are so unique this can happen, especially when there is an income disparity between the two and phaseouts and limitations start to kick in).

[BBTV]

I think that one difference with Magic is that players' opposition to playing with / against him wasn't based on bigotry or their religion, it was a safety concern that was eventually handled through education. I don't think that anyone who has concerns about playing a contact sport against someone with HIV is being unreasonable - afterall, there is a lot of potential for bleeding. At the end of the day it turned out to be NBD, and he came back. Anyone's concerns about playing with or against Collins are completely unfounded and indefensible.

[rams80]

He's name-dropping freaking Zizek and generally making no sense in any of his s.-of-c. posts? max

Or his slightly more sober cousin. Either way rein the recreational drug use in riki.

Why do folks who point to the Bible when disapproving of homosexuality remain silent on other areas that the Bible touches upon? Where is their scorn for people with tattoos? The Bible says God forbids them. But I don't remember anyone giving whichever player broke the "tattoo barrier" a hard time or any of the Westboro clowns with a "God hates inkies" sign.

Looks like we need some precision-guided lightning bolts to take of a bunch of douchebags with bible verses and citations tattooed on their bodies.