NBA C Jason Collins comes out as gay

[NJTank]

I am not sure what to think about the fiancee other than to be strung along for eight years is not good, but it does not sound like she is too angry with him.

[McCall]

You're entitled to your opinion, but you're not entitled to its rhetorical safety. If the kids come out and play, they might scrape their knees.

- nuordr stated his personal beliefs.

- Others disagreed with those beliefs.

- "Discussion" about said beliefs.

- nuordr realizes "discussion" is going nowhere.

- nuordr politely states they are his views and his views alone, doesn't believe anyone else has to share them, kindly apologizes if anyone was offended because it was not his intent to do so, and bows out basically agreeing to disagree and move on.

- nuordr continues to be bombarded with "attacks" (2 times used now).

Basic summary that goes against what Jason Collins himself believes as he stated in the previous quote... that I quoted... from him... Jason Collins.

[The_Admiral]

Why am I not surprised that underneath the layers of hedging, equivocating, and intellectualizing, you're just siding with the guy who said he had problems with gay people.

[McCall]

Why am I not surprised that underneath the layers of hedging, equivocating, and intellectualizing, you're just siding with the guy who said he had problems with gay people.

Ah so now you're going at me because of my beliefs when I have yet to even state my beliefs. I guess you decide what I believe rather than I do for myself, huh?

[DG_ThenNowForever]

That it was noted backup center Jason Collins that came out is largely irrelevant. What is relevant is that another famous person revealed himself to be gay, the social order hasn't fallen, and we continue to chip away at the conversation of what is right, moral and acceptable for modern society.

As part of that process, we're determining that guy rights are inevitable, and there really is no compelling need to be "tolerant" of bigotry, no matter how innocuously it's presented.

[McCall]

bigotry - Noun

Bigoted attitudes; intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

bigotry - Noun

Bigoted attitudes; intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

You do understand the inherent limitations of accepting any and all behaviors, right?

[Ben5]

Ah so now you're going at me because of my beliefs when I have yet to even state my beliefs. I guess you decide what I believe rather than I do for myself, huh?

I'll bite. How do you feel about the issue at hand, McCall?

[McCall]

bigotry - Noun

Bigoted attitudes; intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

You do understand the inherent limitations of accepting any and all behaviors, right?

What behaviors here? All any of them stated was their beliefs. They didn't actively try to prevent anybody from living their lives how they want or anything. They said what they believed, why they believed it, they said it was their own and did not wish to prevent anybody from living their lives as they wish. They simply disagreed with you and therefore their bigots?

[Punch]

.

[-kj]

"Attacking"

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

How do I keep using it when that was my very first post in this entire thread?

It's a movie quote, kept intact. Though the "you're intolerant of my opinion, which is that you shouldn't be tolerated" rhetoric is quite old and tiresome.

[illwauk]

bigotry - Noun

Bigoted attitudes; intolerance toward those who hold different opinions from oneself.

You do understand the inherent limitations of accepting any and all behaviors, right?

What behaviors here? All any of them stated was their beliefs. They didn't actively try to prevent anybody from living their lives how they want or anything. They said what they believed, why they believed it, they said it was their own and did not wish to prevent anybody from living their lives as they wish. They simply disagreed with you and therefore their bigots?

Bigotry means being okay with denying a group of consenting adults (who aren't harming anyone else) their civil rights. This isn't a political issue where there's room for differing opinions, and calling them "beliefs" doesn't suddenly make them protected when countless lives and families have been legitimately destroyed over such attitudes (by the very people who preach "family values," no less). Think it's tough being a "believer" in this day in age? Try being the kids living on the streets in my neighborhood because their fundamentalist parents kicked them out of their homes for being gay.

[McCall]

Ah so now you're going at me because of my beliefs when I have yet to even state my beliefs. I guess you decide what I believe rather than I do for myself, huh?

I'll bite. How do you feel about the issue at hand, McCall?

Thank you for asking Ben. I, personally, have no problem with homosexuality or gay marriage. If a guy wants to marry another guy, fine with me. Or girl marry a girl, which, too, is fine. Even kinda hot. I don't think any less or any more of people who are gay. I base my judgements, or rather opinion as I don't truly judge people, on their personalities, how they behave towards others. If I see someone who's a jackass and happens to be gay, I don't think they're a jackass because they're gay, but rather because they're a jackass. In turn, if I see, or meet I should say, someone who's nice and friendly and too happens to be gay, I don't think they're nice because they're gay, but because they are a good person. I don't really care for announcements of ones sexuality as I feel it's nobody's business. I give a pass, so-to-speak, to Jason Collins because he's the first active or at least non-retired major sport athlete todo so. What I'd like to see come of this is, not more announcements or declarations, but rather people just living normally. Especially actors and musicians. I mean it's not that uncommon in those fields, so why do we have to know everytime one of them is gay? If asked, they can be honest. But as mentioned about hiding pictures on desks at work and stuff, just do it. If your significant other is of the same sex as you, so be it. I'd like to see everyone just not make a deal of it one way or the other if someone's gay. I'm tired of all these "activists" acting as if being gay is some form of enlightenment that we all should be striving to achieve. It's not. It simply means being attracted to or loving a person of the same sex. And most of the time those activists aren't gay, but rather want the attention for "being a good person". It's all about self-righteousness. And it seems like those who are gay, such as Jason Collins, are being used as examples to make someone else look good when all they really want is to live their normal lives. I in turn disagree with all those here stating its a Christian belief that its wrong. I'm Catholic and I have nothing against it whatsoever. I was simply standing up for their rights to believe they're own beliefs. Theses guys here weren't spewing some rhetoric against guys, they simply disagreed with it. I happen to disagree with them. Oh, I'm also a native Missourian and grew up in the Ozarks, so that kinda shoots down the whole "hillbillies and rednecks hate gays" theory. I don't vote for people who support gay rights because they do, but rather because they're usually Democrats and every other topic I ideologically disagree with them on, and I feel that those other subjects effect more people than gay marriage. I believe it'd better, in my view, to vote for someone I agree with on more topics and then work together on the ones we disagree on.

In summary, as long as you're not harming anyone or yourself, and being gay does neither, then I don't care how you live your life.

[Gothamite]

And that's what we're all, I think, struggling towards.

That's when we will live in a country where people can't be fired just because they're gay, where people can't marry their one true love just because they're gay, and where one-half of our major political parties won't call for legal discrimination against Americans just because they're gay.

We're not there yet. Until we are, every coming out is a necessary and important act. Sunshine is the only thing that can combat prejudice and descrimination.

[illwauk]

What I'd like to see come of this is, not more announcements or declarations, but rather people just living normally. Especially actors and musicians. I mean it's not that uncommon in those fields, so why do we have to know everytime one of them is gay? If asked, they can be honest.

A lot of those actors and musicians entered the entertainment field precisely because they knew it'd be an environment that was more accepting of their sexuality; and many of them led fairly pedestrian lives in small-town America where they couldn't be themselves before "making it" in LA, or New York, or wherever. Excuse the hell out of them for trying to be an example for kids who are going through hell in such environments, and letting those kids know that there's more in this world for them than suicide and repression.

[Magnus]

And that's what we're all, I think, struggling towards.

That's when we will live in a country where people can't be fired just because they're gay, where people can't marry their one true love just because they're gay, and where one-half of our major political parties won't call for legal discrimination against Americans just because they're gay.

We're not there yet. Until we are, every coming out is a necessary and important act. Sunshine is the only thing that can combat prejudice and discrimination.

I for one, am glad Canada is there. Ontario's recently appointed premier is openly gay, and although I may not think much of her political party, nor her being appointed to the position instead of elected, I have nothing against her liking of other women. It's her policies that matter.

[OnWis97]

What I'd like to see come of this is, not more announcements or declarations, but rather people just living normally. Especially actors and musicians. I mean it's not that uncommon in those fields, so why do we have to know everytime one of them is gay? If asked, they can be honest.

A lot of those actors and musicians entered the entertainment field precisely because they knew it'd be an environment that was more accepting of their sexuality; and many of them led fairly pedestrian lives in small-town America where they couldn't be themselves before "making it" in LA, or New York, or wherever. Excuse the hell out of them for trying to be an example for kids who are going through hell in such environments, and letting those kids know that there's more in this world for them than suicide and repression.

The other thing is that these entertainers don't always make a big announcement. If you want a world where a "grand announcement" is not needed, I am with you. But if you want a world where we never know who is gay, forget it. Just like we find out who Tom Brady is dating, we are going to find out who his gay counterpart is dating. I would argue that we know far too much about celebrities, but that's because we (the general public) seems to thirst for it so people in (for lack of a better term) the media find it. Many gay entertainers are known to be gay not because they "throw it in our faces", but because it just sort of "got out" and is now common knowledge. Male pro team sports is different at this time. Maybe someday it won't be and nobody will have to make a big announcement when they decided to acknowledge who they are. That would be nice. Right now, however, that's not where we are. If some NFL player decides to come out the closet, it's not even possible for him to do so with no fanfare. You can say "who cares" until you are blue in the face, but the fact is, some people do. Further, it is important in sports because of the "macho" side of gay bashing.

If you literally want to live in a world where you never find out who is gay, that's never going to happen and frankly, that's your discomfort that you'll just have to get over or deal with. You've seen athletes' wives get into media if they are fighting a disease, being part of the face of charity, or whatever. They are sharing a bit of who they are...so don't ask certain of them to not do that. Because if people really sharing who they are bothers you, then it's your issue, whether it's bigotry, discomfort, or whatever. Our partners, families, etc. are big parts of who we are. To ask gay people to hide that just for your own comfort is to 1) treat them different and "lesser" and 2) ask them to essentially give the impression that they go to work and then retire to a small square room to sleep in. That'll make 'em really well-liked.

A note on "who cares". It's my observation that most people that say "who cares" are pretending that it does not matter, but are really the ones that are, at best, most uncomfortable. Maybe I'm wrong...just my gut.

[BBTV]

I don't really care for announcements of ones sexuality as I feel it's nobody's business. I give a pass, so-to-speak, to Jason Collins because he's the first active or at least non-retired major sport athlete todo so. What I'd like to see come of this is, not more announcements or declarations, but rather people just living normally.

But would it be a big deal if after they won the championship and players are seen kissing their wives and celebrating with their kids, he kissed his BF or husband? The world would stop. Maybe if more athletes were out, it wouldn't be seen as a big thing.

Heterosexuals "announce" their sexuality and inadvertantly make it everyone's business every day, be it by holding hands with their significant other, having photos of their wives and kids on their desk at work, etc. In our current society, that is accepted, but gay men are told that their sexuality is nobody's business so keep it to themselves. I don't think you meant to, but you actually demonstrated one of the things that's wrong about a large segment of society's views on this whole thing. If homosexuals weren't constantly told to hide it and meant to feel ashamed or bad for their preference, they wouldn't have to have sham engagements or try to have relationships with girls even though they really don't want to, or have the eventual big "coming out". I didn't have to come out as hetero, I was just out. Until that day comes that homosexuals can just "be out", there will always be the hiding and covering up which leads to the announcement.

Anyone judging him for cheating on his fiancee (which he probably did) just doesn't get it and doesn't know what it's like to feel like you have to hide one of the very things that drives you as a human (sexuality.) Very few of us have had to live like that, so it's wrong to say how we would or wouldn't have handled it.

[Needschat]

I don't really care for announcements of ones sexuality as I feel it's nobody's business. I give a pass, so-to-speak, to Jason Collins because he's the first active or at least non-retired major sport athlete todo so. What I'd like to see come of this is, not more announcements or declarations, but rather people just living normally.

But would it be a big deal if after they won the championship and players are seen kissing their wives and celebrating with their kids, he kissed his BF or husband? The world would stop. Maybe if more athletes were out, it wouldn't be seen as a big thing.

Heterosexuals "announce" their sexuality and inadvertantly make it everyone's business every day, be it by holding hands with their significant other, having photos of their wives and kids on their desk at work, etc. In our current society, that is accepted, but gay men are told that their sexuality is nobody's business so keep it to themselves. I don't think you meant to, but you actually demonstrated one of the things that's wrong about a large segment of society's views on this whole thing. If homosexuals weren't constantly told to hide it and meant to feel ashamed or bad for their preference, they wouldn't have to have sham engagements or try to have relationships with girls even though they really don't want to, or have the eventual big "coming out". I didn't have to come out as hetero, I was just out. Until that day comes that homosexuals can just "be out", there will always be the hiding and covering up which leads to the announcement.

Anyone judging him for cheating on his fiancee (which he probably did) just doesn't get it and doesn't know what it's like to feel like you have to hide one of the very things that drives you as a human (sexuality.) Very few of us have had to live like that, so it's wrong to say how we would or wouldn't have handled it.

How can Jason "cheat" on his fiancee when he wasn't being truthful to her - or even himself - in the first place?

[OnWis97]

I don't really care for announcements of ones sexuality as I feel it's nobody's business. I give a pass, so-to-speak, to Jason Collins because he's the first active or at least non-retired major sport athlete todo so. What I'd like to see come of this is, not more announcements or declarations, but rather people just living normally.

But would it be a big deal if after they won the championship and players are seen kissing their wives and celebrating with their kids, he kissed his BF or husband? The world would stop. Maybe if more athletes were out, it wouldn't be seen as a big thing.

Heterosexuals "announce" their sexuality and inadvertantly make it everyone's business every day, be it by holding hands with their significant other, having photos of their wives and kids on their desk at work, etc. In our current society, that is accepted, but gay men are told that their sexuality is nobody's business so keep it to themselves. I don't think you meant to, but you actually demonstrated one of the things that's wrong about a large segment of society's views on this whole thing. If homosexuals weren't constantly told to hide it and meant to feel ashamed or bad for their preference, they wouldn't have to have sham engagements or try to have relationships with girls even though they really don't want to, or have the eventual big "coming out". I didn't have to come out as hetero, I was just out. Until that day comes that homosexuals can just "be out", there will always be the hiding and covering up which leads to the announcement.

Anyone judging him for cheating on his fiancee (which he probably did) just doesn't get it and doesn't know what it's like to feel like you have to hide one of the very things that drives you as a human (sexuality.) Very few of us have had to live like that, so it's wrong to say how we would or wouldn't have handled it.

In short, it's time we get mature and realize it's not about "sex" or "what people do in their bedroom". It's about "love" and "who people are". If anyone cannot stop themselves from thinking about what goes on in "their" bedrooms, then maybe it's that person's issue. Think about your co-workers and their opposite sex spouses. Do you really think about what goes on in their bedroom? No. Same thing.