Jimmy Lethal

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On 9/13/2018 at 11:49 AM, TrueYankee26 said:

I am pro-DH in the NL (unpopular among old school baseball fans, and a lot of NL fans).

And on the opposite side, I'm anti-DH and wish the AL would get rid of the position.

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On 9/16/2018 at 1:42 PM, Cosmic said:

Don't see what's wrong with either of these two things.

 

Since a "ban" in baseball is often a temporary thing anyway, and Wikipedia's list of people banned (even temporarily) for performance-enhancing drugs seems awkwardly short, I don't see why Pete Rose can't be reinstated after 30 years.

 

 

What's wrong with them is that they are evidence that Rose has given ZERO effort and has no intention of "reconfiguring his life" which is what former commissioners Vincent, Selig and current commissioner Manfred all say has to happy for Rose to have ANY chance at reinstatement. 

 

Now, what does "reconfiguring his life" mean?

 

Stop betting.

 

On everything.

 

Stop sitting in the sports book in Vegas in sweatpants and dirty t-shirt getting drunk every Saturday and Sunday during college and pro football season.

 

Stop going to the dog track and placing $30,000 bets.

 

Stop going to the horse track and placing $100,000 bets.

 

Don't work in a casino. 

 

If Rose wants to sell his autograph or a picture with him or one of his game worn unis or whatever , more power to him. But move out of the casino. Move to a storefront in a stripmall. Sell over the Internet.

 

Move out of Las Vegas, hell move out of Nevada. The problem now is that there are casinos of one kind or another in nearly every state in the country, and wherever he settled I guarantee Rose just can't help himself.

 

Stop gambling of any and all kinds.

4 hours ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

 

That is by no means an unpopular opinion.  Sadly, it is the prevailing view.


Look, no one denies that Rose knowingly broke a rule, and that he had to be punished for this.  But the punishment should not last his entire lifetime.

On the level of morals rather than that of techincal rule-breaking, the fact that Rose never bet against his team is highly significant (notwithstanding the embarassing sophistry that has been offered in an effort to erase this important fact). This means that he never compromised his team's chance to win.  It does not justify his betting, of course; but it mitigates the offence to one which should have some defined period of punishment that ends at certain point.

I like to compare Rose to another manager: Billy Martin.  While no one has accused Martin of betting on baseball, he certainly compromised his team's ability to win on any number of occasions.  The most famous event in Billy's career was his refusal to bat Reggie Jackson fourth in the first half of the 1977 season, on account of Billy's resentment about a new arrival getting so much attention.  Day after day, Billy hurt the team by writing out lineups that were not the best they could have been, simply out of spite. And when his two most trusted players, Thurman Munson and Lou Piniella, went to him privately to implore him to relent on this, what did Billy do?  Did he give the counsel of his wisest and most level-headed players the consideration it deserved?  No; he angrily snapped at them: "So you c*ck-s*ckers are against me, too!"
 

On one occasion Billy posted a lineup with a pitcher in the DH spot.  This was his clever way of sending a message to Steinbrenner that he needed hitting help. The pitcher acquitted himself decently, driving in a run with a sacrifice fly; and the Yankees won that game.  But there is no justification for giving a pitcher a start at DH in the middle of a pennant race.  No matter how scant the bench might have been, Billy surely had players who were more qualified to DH than a pitcher was.

 

On another occasion, Billy accidentally gave the steal sign while trying to flirt with a woman in the stands.  The runner (I believe it was Mike Pagliarulo, but I could be mistaken) was thrown out by a mile.

 

There were also the many occasions when Billy refused to use players because of personal grudges.  This included Ken Holtzman (whom he referred to as "the kike"), Larry Gura, and Billy Sample. In 1978 Billy was developing this kind of relationship with Goose Gossage after he ordered the Goose to throw at a hitter and the Goose refused.  Fortunately for the Yankees, Billy saved the 1978 season by getting himself fired after a drunken night in a bar.

Those drunken nights were the norm for Billy.  In the recent documentary on Billy that aired on the MLB Network, Ron Guidry admitted that Billy often slept off his benders in the dugout; Guidry said that if Billy was wearing shades, then he was asleep.  (And this was in a show that was largely lauditory!)  Billy was a manager who, despite his natural brilliance, was habitually operating in a state of impairment; and who, even when not impaired, frequently elected to put other interests ahead of the interest of his team.

You might ask: what does this have to do with Pete Rose?  For me it has everything to do with him.  When we think of people who digraced the game of baseball, Pete Rose is not nearly as big an offender as Billy Martin, whose transgressions people are now likely to overlook or perhaps even to chuckle about. Rose broke a rule; and he lost his job for it.  Rightfully so.  But he never once hurt his team or disgraced the uniform the way that Billy Martin did on a consistent and ongoing basis.  For his misbehaviour Rose has paid the price, and then some.  He deserves to be restored to full citizenship within the game, and to be enshrined in the Hall of Fame while he is still alive, in keeping with his accomplishments as a dominant and inspirational player and a fierce competitor.  

 

 

P.S. - Don't even try it with that Ichiro nonsense.  Every league apart from the AL and NL (and the historic leagues the American Association, the Union Association, the Federal League, and the Players' League) is a minor league, even if it is the top league in another country such as Japan or Mexico.  And hits obtained in a minor league do not count in a Major League hit total.  The hit king is, and probably always will be, Pete Rose. (Unless somebody wants to check on Razor Shines's record with Indianapolis.)
 

None of what Martin did broke any rule of baseball, not even the bull :censored: 'unwritten rules' garbage.

 

Rose didn't break a rule, he broke THE RULE. 

 

The only rule in the entire book of mlb rules that is posted in EVERY major and minor league clubhouse. It baffles me why you handwave away how important and dear that rule is to the powers that be in baseball. It goes to the integrity of the game far more than anything Billy Martin did. 

 

I'm curious why you don't mention the fact that the Spanks won the world series in 1977, and they likely would have won it without Reggie Jackson. You make it seem as if they only reason they did win was because of Reggie, which is garbage. So Billy Martin was a paranoid asshat AND a drunk. Mickey Mantle was a drunk and an asshat and played half his career drunk or hung over so why aren't you on your high horse about how many games and championships he cost the Yankees because of his behavior.

 

Rose hurt BASEBALL. Screw whether or not he hurt his team.

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- Leagues shouldn't be able to suspend or cut players for just being accused of a crime, they should really be found guilty for anything to happen. Sports leagues and teams don't need to play moral police and shouldn't be doing justice systems work just let it handle the situation and focus on peds, players betting on games, and teams cheating.

 

- End shootouts in all sports. In hockey, if there still isn't a winner by the end of overtime just call it a tie and in soccer just play a continuous extra time in place of a shootout. 

 

- Lose the 3pt shot in basketball or at very least discourage it more to encourage teams to invest in bigs again, in my eyes there is nothing more fun to watch than an elite post big man and I would give everything to see a player like Hakeem, Shaq or Kareem in the NBA again.

 

- Lose the DH in baseball I always thought it was unfair to position players that have to master every part of the game and gives players who should be out of the majors because they can't field any more a bailout. if you want to hit you need to field and if you want to pitch you need to hit, no getting out of a part of the game because you are awful at it. 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Lights Out said:

And on the opposite side, I'm anti-DH and wish the AL would get rid of the position.

I’ll echo @Ferdinand Cesarano on this one. I want the AL to keep it and the NL to avoid it. 

 

I actually don’t really care one way or another, and if you forced me to pick? I would probably be anti-DH. 

 

So why do I want the AL, the league with my favourite team, to keep it? Simple. I like the idea of the leagues being separate entities.

That’s been chipped away at over the years. The league offices have closed. The league-specific umpires have been replaced by MLB umps. Interleague play is rampant. 

 

So the AL and NL having slightly different rules for how to play the game is the one thing left keeping them distinct. 

Again, I think this is worth emphasizing. I realize we’re probably never scaling back interleague play, bringing back the AL and NL refs, or re-instating the separate league offices. I would love to see all of these things, but I know that they’re not happening. 

 

So having the DH division between the leagues is the last bastion of difference left. And I want to see it kept. 

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49 minutes ago, ShutUpLutz! said:

I'm curious why you don't mention the fact that the Spanks won the world series in 1977, and they likely would have won it without Reggie Jackson.


The Yankees won it all in 1977 despite Billy Martin.  And to think that they could have achieved that without Reggie is, well, fanciful.  (To put it politely.)  It's worth noting that in 1978 they didn't make their run until the disaster that is Billy was removed from the scene.

 

 

49 minutes ago, ShutUpLutz! said:

None of what Martin did broke any rule of baseball, not even the bull :censored: 'unwritten rules' garbage.

 

Except for the convention that says that a manager ought to try his best to win baseball games, rather than indulge his own personal grudges.

 

49 minutes ago, ShutUpLutz! said:

Rose didn't break a rule, he broke THE RULE. 

 

The only rule in the entire book of mlb rules that is posted in EVERY major and minor league clubhouse. It baffles me why you handwave away how important and dear that rule is to the powers that be in baseball. It goes to the integrity of the game far more than anything Billy Martin did. 

 

Pete Rose, by breaking the rule against gambling in the way that he did (by betting only on his team to win) hurt no one but himself.  Martin's act of intentionally sending out lineups that were far from his best was more damaging to the integrity of the game than Rose's act giving himself a little extra incentive to win games on occasion. Rose was trying to win; Martin was not.  That is a meaningful distinction.

 

Furthermore, Rose has no obligation to stay away from betting on other sports — or even from betting on baseball, which he is free to do as someone who is not working in baseball.  When Rose was managing the Reds, he had insider information.  Now he doesn't.  Rose should not be expected to renounce the legal and legitimate gambling that you or I could do in order to be honoured for his outstanding playing career. 
 

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(I am breaking the unwritten rule about consecutive posts.  I hope that all will forgive me for this, as this is the best way to keep the distinct topics in this thread separate.)

 

19 hours ago, Ice_Cap said:

So the AL and NL having slightly different rules for how to play the game is the one thing left keeping them distinct. 

Again, I think this is worth emphasizing. I realize we’re probably never scaling back interleague play, bringing back the AL and NL refs, or re-instating the separate league offices. I would love to see all of these things, but I know that they’re not happening. 

 

So having the DH division between the leagues is the last bastion of difference left. And I want to see it kept. 

 

One thing that I would change about the DH is that I would like to see it treated as a regular position.  The fact that the DH was not configured as a regular position seems to me to betray an ambivalence or an insecurity about it.  I say we lose that ambivalence.  There should be no way to lose the DH; the manager should be able to swap his first baseman and his DH during the game, just as he can swap his right fielder and left fielder. 
 

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13 minutes ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

 

Pete Rose, by breaking the rule against gambling in the way that he did (by betting only on his team to win) hurt no one but himself.  Martin's act of intentionally sending out lineups that were far from his best was more damaging to the integrity of the game than Rose's act giving himself a little extra incentive to win games on occasion. Rose was trying to win; Martin was not.  That is a meaningful distinction.

 

Furthermore, Rose has no obligation to stay away from betting on other sports — or even from betting on baseball, which he is free to do as someone who is not working in baseball.  When Rose was managing the Reds, he had insider information.  Now he doesn't.  Rose should not be expected to renounce the legal and legitimate gambling that you or I could do in order to be honoured for his outstanding playing career. 
 

Christ. So you are saying that Rose's betting baseball didn't hurt baseball as an institution, not even a little. That the fact that one of the most famous and best players in the history of the game literally took a dump on that game, not to mention the fans that he repeatedly lied to and the 4 commissioners that he repeatedly lied to and his teammates like Johnny Bench (more on him below that he repeatedly lied to. Those thousands and thousands of lies, you just handwave them away.

 

Rose certainly does have an obligation to stay away from all betting, it's the very definition of "reconfiguring" his life that Vincent, Selig and Manfred have REPEATEDLY said Rose MUST do if he wants to have even a chance of reinstatement. his refusal to do so is yet another dump taken in their faces and on the faces of the fans.

 

As for Johnny Bench, one of the most respected and greatest players in mlb history, certainly one of the top 5 catchers if not top 3 was at Cooperstown during enshrinement weekend back in 2000 for Tony Perez's induction. Perez and bench were on stage and the crowd started chanting, "We want Pete! We want Pete! We want Pete! Bench strode to the microphone and said, "You can have him."

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This will probably get jumped on. The name of the city has to be the city/stare has to be the name of the city/state you actually play in. What does this mean? Well, the New York Giants and New York Jets names should be the New Jersey Giants and New Jersey Jets. They both play in a stadium located in New Jersey, as are all of their other facilities. The Dallas Cowboys should be the Arlington Cowboys. The San Francisco 49ers should be the Santa Clara 49ers. The Washington Redskins should be the Maryland Redskins. Teams like the New England Patriots and Golden State Warriors get a pass because "Golden State" references California and the rumors are that they will be renamed the San Francisco Warriors when they move into their new arena in San Francisco and "New England" represents an entire region.

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Here I am, the baseball historian who doesn't understand why the participants can't gamble on their own games

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3 minutes ago, the admiral said:

Here I am, the baseball historian who doesn't understand why the participants can't gamble on their own games

As long as they're betting on their teams to win, I assume you mean? I don't have a problem with that.

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1. Jerry Rice isn't the GOAT WR or NFL player. He was good, but he was a product of a dink and dunk offensive system where he really didn't run real pass routes, and he really didn't face a lot of CB coverage because they were in zones against SF a lot of the time.

 

2. Bob Knight is more admirable than John Wooden. Knight was a bully, but at least he wasn't a cheater. All of Wooden's titles are tainted.

 

3. Pete Rose shouldn't have bet on baseball. He should have been punished. And, he should have admitted it instead of being an ass hat. That being said, I think that he should be in the HOF. Someone got those hits, and at least he didn't steal WS titles by using cheating equipment like Belichick, Ernie Adams, and Brady did. What NE has done was way worse than what Rose did.

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New opinion: Halls of fame are dumb and shouldn't exist.

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carry over from the NFL thread:

 

I think that Vontae Davis should NOT have put on his street clothes and walked out without telling anyone during a halftime of a game he was playing in. Apparently that is unpopular. ;)

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7 hours ago, ShutUpLutz! said:

This will probably get jumped on. The name of the city has to be the city/stare has to be the name of the city/state you actually play in. What does this mean? Well, the New York Giants and New York Jets names should be the New Jersey Giants and New Jersey Jets. They both play in a stadium located in New Jersey, as are all of their other facilities. The Dallas Cowboys should be the Arlington Cowboys. The San Francisco 49ers should be the Santa Clara 49ers. The Washington Redskins should be the Maryland Redskins. Teams like the New England Patriots and Golden State Warriors get a pass because "Golden State" references California and the rumors are that they will be renamed the San Francisco Warriors when they move into their new arena in San Francisco and "New England" represents an entire region.

 

Hahaha, what? No. The only way I'd support any of that is if one of the New York NFL teams moved to a new stadium in New York and the other one rebranded as a New Jersey team.

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18 hours ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

(I am breaking the unwritten rule about consecutive posts.  I hope that all will forgive me for this, as this is the best was to keep the distinct topics in this thread separate.)

 

 

One thing that I would change about the DH is that I would like to see it treated as a regular position.  The fact that the DH was not configured as a regular position seems to me to betray an ambivalence or an insecurity about it.  I say we lose that ambivalence.  There should be no way to lose the DH; the manager should be able to swap his first baseman and his DH during the game, just as he can swap his right fielder and left fielder. 
 

That the DH is not treated as a regular position sort of acknowledges where it came from...does it indicate ambivalence or insecurity?  Maybe.  It's probably just a product of the times, which was that the entire idea was foreign.  So they replaced the pitcher with the DH but sort of treated it like something that wasn't an automatic privilege. 

 

In a sense, you are probably right.  It's legal to move your pitcher to first base, so why not the guy that is batting in the pitcher's stead?  On the other hand, it's only "half of a position" and you could argue having free reign to move people in and out of the "position" has made life even easier for the AL managers.  This provides at least some restriction on what's otherwise a gift to the offense.


Ultimately, I'd like to keep it the way it is, though only for it's historic tie to the way I think baseball ought to be played (no DH, either way).  If it ever becomes a true "position" I won't lose any more sleep over it than I did over the automatic intentionally walk (which I don't like but don't really care about). 

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Retaliatory beanings in baseball are stupid. The same goes for hockey fighting.

 

The un-merger/de-merger should be the canonical origin story of the Sharks, not that they were a 1991 expansion team. Yes, I wouldn’t mind the Sharks selling “EST. 1967” gear, provided it also had the Seals’ logos on it.

 

Shootouts/PK’s are good for their respective sports, just with no loser point.

 

Mandatory therapy (with qualified/APA-approved therapists, obviously) for players in sports with high CTE risks is a good idea.

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Here's the thing with Rose:

 

The Baseball Hall of Fame has admitted players and managers in separate capacities.  Had Rose been proven to bet while playing?  Sure, ban him.  Since the Dowd Report showed that he bet while managing I don't see how his transgressions as a manager should preclude him from being admitted as a player.

 

If we want a compromise approach, handle it the way they should handle steroid users.  Admit them, but put a big asterisk on the plaque.  Keeping out someone with essentially an insurmountable record due to something that happened after retirement is silly at this point.

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Pete Rose's role as player-manager makes it hard to partition his career like that, doesn't it?

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26 minutes ago, the admiral said:

Pete Rose's role as player-manager makes it hard to partition his career like that, doesn't it?

I'd say that the bigger transgression for those 1.1 seasons was going after the record with corked bats.

 

If that would have been the reasoning for the ban I'd be much more accepting of it.

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