Viper

Say it ain't so, Joe

2,637 posts in this topic

Well technically, isn't reporting up the chain of command what you're supposed to do? It gets back to what I posted - he did the "by the book" correct thing, so he's (at least legally) off the hook. However, while he technically went up the chain, ultimately he has more power and influence than those above him, so he should've gone to the authorities himself - or at least followed up with the AD.

I'm just wondering how you couldn't report that to the police department, which is what Paterno should have done.

I do think that's what he should have done. You cut out what I was replying to. My point was the difference between legal liability and moral obligation. He (so far, it seems) didn't do anyting legally wrong. He certainly should've pursued with McQuery and the authorities. I can sort of see a 22-year-old kid being scared and unsure of what to do, and hell - it's Joe Freaking Paterno he's reporting it to - that guy can make everything OK. But for Paterno to not question why this guy is still running a program for children and working on campus is inexcusable.

There were no quotes in the post of yours that I was replying too. That post was right below mine. I assumed you were replying to me (for whatever reason). Sorry.

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I'm a Penn State Graduate. 2008, BA Accounting, Law Minor. Spent all 4 years at University Park. Wouldn't trade it for anything.

I'm not going to get into Sandusky. Whatever he gets will still be too good for him. I can't wait for what will happen to him when his fellow inmates find out what he's in the slammer for.

I just have a few points/comments in no particular order:

1) I've seen a lot of people talking about "campus police" vs. "REAL police". Just know that State College is a separate township than is University Park. The campus itself is UP. Anything off campus is State College, it surrounds University Park. Obviously the two work together all the time, but "Campus Police" are really "REAL Police" too. It's not like they're rent-a-cops.

2) Mike McQueary, if it's true that he witnessed it, here's what I don't get over and above anything else:

WHY DIDN'T HE STOP IT? He was a former QB. He obviously could "take" Sandusky. Go beat the living you-know-what out of him. SAVE THE BOY!!! You're right there, and didn't step in to stop it. Let the Cops drag his bloodied ass out of there and get the boy to safety.

3) Yeah, everyone's innocent. That's why they're resigning and "retiring".

4) I can't help but wonder what's going to happen to donations to the school at this point. How about THON? They raise about $10 Million for pediatric cancer every year. What's going to happen when these frats/sororities send people "Canning". When people see the Penn State logo now, what will that say to them?

5) This has nothing to do with NCAA violations. Will something else arise? Who knows.

6) In 1988 he spurned Temple to stay @ PSU. Per the Washington (PA) Observer Reporter on 12/21/88:

?From my standpoint the options were very attractive. With the option of staying at Penn State there are so many things here. There?s the university, the football program, the community, everything that I?m involved with in working with kids. Those are meaningful parts of my life.?

Sandusky admitted his community commitments, including The Second Mile home for troubled youths and a rapidly growing foster parents program, played a major factor in his decision. His parents, Art and Evie Sandusky, moved to State College nearly two years ago to help Jerry in the administration of those programs.

7) Same paper in 1983:

?I?m concerned about his future,? Paterno said in the Dec. 6, 1982 edition of Sports Illustrated in a story centered around Sandusky?s Second Mile. ?I?m proud of everything that he and Dottie have done, and I certainly wouldn?t like to lose him, but I?d hate to see him lose his chance to be a head coach.

?Many people have talked to me about hiring him, but Jerry?s been reluctant to talk to them because of all the commitments he has in this area.?

?The timing hasn?t been right,? Sandusky said.

8) What a scumbag. What a great day to be a PSU Alum. :wacko:

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6) In 1988 he spurned Temple to stay @ PSU. Per the Washington (PA) Observer Reporter on 12/21/88:

?From my standpoint the options were very attractive. With the option of staying at Penn State there are so many things here. There?s the university, the football program, the community, everything that I?m involved with in working with kids. Those are meaningful parts of my life.?

Sandusky admitted his community commitments, including The Second Mile home for troubled youths and a rapidly growing foster parents program, played a major factor in his decision. His parents, Art and Evie Sandusky, moved to State College nearly two years ago to help Jerry in the administration of those programs.

7) Same paper in 1983:

?I?m concerned about his future,? Paterno said in the Dec. 6, 1982 edition of Sports Illustrated in a story centered around Sandusky?s Second Mile. ?I?m proud of everything that he and Dottie have done, and I certainly wouldn?t like to lose him, but I?d hate to see him lose his chance to be a head coach.

?Many people have talked to me about hiring him, but Jerry?s been reluctant to talk to them because of all the commitments he has in this area.?

?The timing hasn?t been right,? Sandusky said.

See also: Virginia, 2001.

For best reader clarity, replace "Second Mile" with "unfettered child- :censored: ing."

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2) Mike McQueary, if it's true that he witnessed it, here's what I don't get over and above anything else:

WHY DIDN'T HE STOP IT? He was a former QB. He obviously could "take" Sandusky. Go beat the living you-know-what out of him. SAVE THE BOY!!! You're right there, and didn't step in to stop it. Let the Cops drag his bloodied ass out of there and get the boy to safety.

Excellent point. Of all the stuff I've read and all the radio shows I've listened to today, you are the first person to ask that question. What kind of person sees an old man blowing a ten year old and does nothing to stop it? Even a "hey, what the hell is going here?" would have been at least something.

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So it's pretty clear that "Second Mile" was created under the guise of a community outreach program, but was actually created so the sick :censored: would have a constant pipeline of little boys to feed his depravity.

I'm usually pretty desensitized to terrible things that happen in the news, but this story has stuck with me. This is one of the more disturbing things I've heard in a long time.

Also, he's got a wife and kids and they never had any idea? How f***ed up would that feel to learn that your dad was raping all those little kids you thought he was mentoring?

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Am I the only one who thinks there had to be rumors of Sandusky's behavior? Especially after 2002? The fact that the guy still had access to the program after the 2002 incident leads me to think that a lot of people turned their heads and pretended that everything was A-OK. Sorry, but I'm just not buying the idea that everyone "was fooled."

You've never had a friend who turned out to be a sexual deviant have you? It's not something most people are willing to admit is possible. Hell they'll delude themselves that it can't be true until the evidence is staring them right in the face, trust me I've seen it happen.

Can't say that I have. You make it sound like it's a pretty common occurrence. If someone came to me and said "one of your friends likes to blow little boys", I'd like to think that, at the very least, I'd go to that friend and say "someone told me you like to blow little boys." The last thing I'd do is tell myself "well this can't possibly be true." We're not talking about being in denial about a friend's coke habit or drinking problem here. We're talking about a guy who was preying on young boys.

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Am I the only one who thinks there had to be rumors of Sandusky's behavior? Especially after 2002? The fact that the guy still had access to the program after the 2002 incident leads me to think that a lot of people turned their heads and pretended that everything was A-OK. Sorry, but I'm just not buying the idea that everyone "was fooled."

You've never had a friend who turned out to be a sexual deviant have you? It's not something most people are willing to admit is possible. Hell they'll delude themselves that it can't be true until the evidence is staring them right in the face, trust me I've seen it happen.

Can't say that I have. You make it sound like it's a pretty common occurrence. If someone came to me and said "one of your friends likes to blow little boys", I'd like to think that, at the very least, I'd go to that friend and say "someone told me you like to blow little boys." The last thing I'd do is tell myself "well this can't possibly be true." We're not talking about being in denial about a friend's coke habit or drinking problem here. We're talking about a guy who was preying on young boys.

Well in my life it's happened twice now so it's become a far too common occurrence for me. As for what we'd like to think we'd do, and what actually happens, they are two different things. But given your line of reasoning who is to say Paterno didn't go to Sandusky and ask him if it were true? Obviously Sandusky would have said "no" to that question.

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2) Mike McQueary, if it's true that he witnessed it, here's what I don't get over and above anything else:

WHY DIDN'T HE STOP IT? He was a former QB. He obviously could "take" Sandusky. Go beat the living you-know-what out of him. SAVE THE BOY!!! You're right there, and didn't step in to stop it. Let the Cops drag his bloodied ass out of there and get the boy to safety.

Excellent point. Of all the stuff I've read and all the radio shows I've listened to today, you are the first person to ask that question. What kind of person sees an old man blowing a ten year old and does nothing to stop it? Even a "hey, what the hell is going here?" would have been at least something.

VERY good point. I'm shocked I hadn't even thought of that to this point. Makes the GA seem an even bigger ass clown than I'd already thought he was before since he didn't call the cops immediately and called his daddy instead. Forget Paterno, I hope they prosecute the hell out of this guy second only to Sandusky himself.

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2) Mike McQueary, if it's true that he witnessed it, here's what I don't get over and above anything else:

WHY DIDN'T HE STOP IT? He was a former QB. He obviously could "take" Sandusky. Go beat the living you-know-what out of him. SAVE THE BOY!!! You're right there, and didn't step in to stop it. Let the Cops drag his bloodied ass out of there and get the boy to safety.

Excellent point. Of all the stuff I've read and all the radio shows I've listened to today, you are the first person to ask that question. What kind of person sees an old man blowing a ten year old and does nothing to stop it? Even a "hey, what the hell is going here?" would have been at least something.

Totally agree, I mean if you see something like that happening how do you not run in and tear Sandusky a new :censored: and leave him a bloody pulp for the police.

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Joe Paterno should be fired EEERR "asked to resign" by tomorrow afternoon. There is no way that guy should have a job coaching young men after letting his good friend molest kids for all these years. Awful, inexcusable, and disgusting. So long, JoePa!

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Am I the only one who thinks there had to be rumors of Sandusky's behavior? Especially after 2002? The fact that the guy still had access to the program after the 2002 incident leads me to think that a lot of people turned their heads and pretended that everything was A-OK. Sorry, but I'm just not buying the idea that everyone "was fooled."

You've never had a friend who turned out to be a sexual deviant have you? It's not something most people are willing to admit is possible. Hell they'll delude themselves that it can't be true until the evidence is staring them right in the face, trust me I've seen it happen.

Can't say that I have. You make it sound like it's a pretty common occurrence. If someone came to me and said "one of your friends likes to blow little boys", I'd like to think that, at the very least, I'd go to that friend and say "someone told me you like to blow little boys." The last thing I'd do is tell myself "well this can't possibly be true." We're not talking about being in denial about a friend's coke habit or drinking problem here. We're talking about a guy who was preying on young boys.

Well in my life it's happened twice now so it's become a far too common occurrence for me. As for what we'd like to think we'd do, and what actually happens, they are two different things. But given your line of reasoning who is to say Paterno didn't go to Sandusky and ask him if it were true? Obviously Sandusky would have said "no" to that question.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I'm not entirely sure what your point is and I'm not interested debating what I might or might not do in a similar situation. I know what I would do. There are moral absolutes in the world. Taking the appropriate action to stop a pedophile has to be one of them. I'm pretty sure I'm right about that.

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Joe Paterno should be fired EEERR "asked to resign" by tomorrow afternoon. There is no way that guy should have a job coaching young men after letting his good friend molest kids for all these years. Awful, inexcusable, and disgusting. So long, JoePa!

I doubt it. There's no evidence to date that he "let his friend molest little kids." If evidence DOES come out that he knew more than the little bit we know he did know though, that might change.

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So it's pretty clear that "Second Mile" was created under the guise of a community outreach program, but was actually created so the sick :censored: would have a constant pipeline of little boys to feed his depravity.

I'm usually pretty desensitized to terrible things that happen in the news, but this story has stuck with me. This is one of the more disturbing things I've heard in a long time.

Also, he's got a wife and kids and they never had any idea? How f***ed up would that feel to learn that your dad was raping all those little kids you thought he was mentoring?

Just got done reading the grand jury report. This description sounds fairly accurate. What a terrible and sad thing this all is.

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On WFAN today Mike Francesa interviewed reported Kim Jones, who is a Penn State alum. The details of the scandal are sickening. Paterno has to resign.

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Am I the only one who thinks there had to be rumors of Sandusky's behavior? Especially after 2002? The fact that the guy still had access to the program after the 2002 incident leads me to think that a lot of people turned their heads and pretended that everything was A-OK. Sorry, but I'm just not buying the idea that everyone "was fooled."

You've never had a friend who turned out to be a sexual deviant have you? It's not something most people are willing to admit is possible. Hell they'll delude themselves that it can't be true until the evidence is staring them right in the face, trust me I've seen it happen.

Can't say that I have. You make it sound like it's a pretty common occurrence. If someone came to me and said "one of your friends likes to blow little boys", I'd like to think that, at the very least, I'd go to that friend and say "someone told me you like to blow little boys." The last thing I'd do is tell myself "well this can't possibly be true." We're not talking about being in denial about a friend's coke habit or drinking problem here. We're talking about a guy who was preying on young boys.

Well in my life it's happened twice now so it's become a far too common occurrence for me. As for what we'd like to think we'd do, and what actually happens, they are two different things. But given your line of reasoning who is to say Paterno didn't go to Sandusky and ask him if it were true? Obviously Sandusky would have said "no" to that question.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I'm not entirely sure what your point is and I'm not interested debating what I might or might not do in a similar situation. I know what I would do. There are moral absolutes in the world. Taking the appropriate action to stop a pedophile has to be one of them. I'm pretty sure I'm right about that.

I agree, if you know someone is a pedophile like say the GA did, then yes you have an absolute moral obligation (and legal one) to report it. Paterno didn't witness anything that we know so far and was only told (a day late) by a GA that one of his coaches was "doing something" with a kid. Doesn't even sound like he was given the details. Based on the little bit of info he did recieve he did act appropriately legally and arguably morally under his specific circumstances despite what some police chief said. I mean come on, you HAVE to put yourself in his shoes of some GA coming to you and telling you a long time friend and confidant was fooling around with a kid. If you don't ask yourself what you'd do in that situation you have no business commenting on what Paterno did or didn't do.

Could Paterno have done more, maybe. But he wasn't obligated to do any more than he did. The GA has legally and morally obligated to do a hell of a lot more, as were the AD and the school president if he knew. I mean why the hell didn't the GA break it up and/or call the cops. And the AD was also legally obligated to call the cops but didn't. They both are at fault for not doing what they were legally and morally obligated to do. But lets again not lose sight of who is the ultimate responsible party, Sandusky, the sick :censored: that he is...

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Knowing anything is too much!! Just the fact that JoePa knew about one incident (and there is no denying that he knew about one) and still let this predator on campus, in his weight room, for 10 years is inexcusable.

I've asked myself btw. I put my best friend for 25 years in this situation and you know what I do? Report it to the police everytime. You don't mess with something like that, for the kids sake of couse but for your own ass and conscious too.

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So it's pretty clear that "Second Mile" was created under the guise of a community outreach program, but was actually created so the sick :censored: would have a constant pipeline of little boys to feed his depravity.

I'm usually pretty desensitized to terrible things that happen in the news, but this story has stuck with me. This is one of the more disturbing things I've heard in a long time.

Also, he's got a wife and kids and they never had any idea? How f***ed up would that feel to learn that your dad was raping all those little kids you thought he was mentoring?

Just got done reading the grand jury report. This description sounds fairly accurate. What a terrible and sad thing this all is.

Awful just awful. How could Joe Pa not know, this is just like the Catholic Church with the Priests. Penn State was more concerned with its legacy than getting the truth out, and now its destroyed everything.

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We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this. I'm not entirely sure what your point is and I'm not interested debating what I might or might not do in a similar situation. I know what I would do. There are moral absolutes in the world. Taking the appropriate action to stop a pedophile has to be one of them. I'm pretty sure I'm right about that.

I agree, if you know someone is a pedophile like say the GA did, then yes you have an absolute moral obligation (and legal one) to report it. Paterno didn't witness anything that we know so far and was only told (a day late) by a GA that one of his coaches was "doing something" with a kid. Doesn't even sound like he was given the details. Based on the little bit of info he did recieve he did act appropriately legally and arguably morally under his specific circumstances despite what some police chief said. I mean come on, you HAVE to put yourself in his shoes of some GA coming to you and telling you a long time friend and confidant was fooling around with a kid. If you don't ask yourself what you'd do in that situation you have no business commenting on what Paterno did or didn't do.

See, this is where you lose me. I did "ask myself what I'd do in that situation" and I would do whatever was necessary to make sure justice was served. Something as serious as an old man preying on young boys can't be shrugged off just because you're not willing to believe someone you know is capable of it. Especially when the person in question runs an organization for young boys. It automatically warrants more than "so Jerry, are you blowing these kids in the showers? No? Well OK then, that's good enough for me." Let's not forget that our little debate started over my assertion that there had to be rumors of Sandusky's behavior. It had nothing to do with police reports or what facts were or weren't relayed to Paterno.

Your entire argument seems to be that unless we react like you did when you found out two of your friends were "sexual deviants", we don't know what we're talking about. Don't assume that we all share your moral compass or that we'd all react like you did.

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I'd be willing to give JoePa the benefit of the doubt since he only heard second hand and did the legal duty, if not for the fact that Sandusky continued using PSU facilities for the next several years. If I was in Paterno's shoes, I know I'd be terribly uncomfortable with it. And even if he had reason to believe he could not go to the cops because he thought it had run its course, his "most powerful person at PSU" status means he could have, and should have, made sure he was not working with kids at PSU facilities. That status matters there more than it does with the original incident.

There are probably a lot of people (particularly the GA) that should feel horrible about the original incident, but it's Paterno that had the power to at the very least cut Sandusky off from the University. And he did not.

To steal from someone else in this thread...this could, and probably should, be his legacy.

This football program is going to take a big step backwards now.

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