NHL Anti-Thread: Bad Business Decision Aggregator

[youcan'tseeme]

I'm, biased, but I don't see how this can possibly be seen as anything other an a very large black eye for Gary Bettman and the NHL.

You have a major league team for sale. One of the "Big 4". And they can't find anybody willing to take it off their hands for a measly $170M? With a sweetheart lease deal from the city thrown in for good measure?

Looking around that BIg 4, do you think that Bud Selig, or Goodell or Stern, couldn't pick up the phone and find someone outside of the club to open their wallets and put Jamison over the top? Bettman has had four years, and can't come up with the money unless he makes the owners themselves pay it. Hell, the next MLS expansion fee is expected to get near $100M, and that doesn't even cover a single cost of building the team. $170M for a whole organization (and a good one) is peanuts.

That's a sign of a league in very deep trouble, when people with money don't actually want to be part of it.

I don't think it's a question of people with money not wanting to be apart of it, but more about people not wanting to lose the said money by being apart of it in Phoenix. If the NHL said we're auctioning the team off at the end of the month, the new owner can do what they want pending BOG approval, they'd likely get a far greater amount for the club.

[The Giant Pacific Octopus]

Wouldn't it have been better if the NHL and a potential ownership group just spend some cash renovating the America West Arena in downtown Phoenix to make it hockey freindly so the team could have stayed in downtown Phoenix rather than dumping all this money trying to keep the team afloat in Glendale?

[Gothamite]

I'm not sure why the Suns would be terribly interested in buying the Coyotes. If they can fill their empty dates with concerts and the like, why would they want the competition for fan dollars? They'd be better off if the Yotes left town altogether.

[The_Admiral]

You can't make America West hockey-friendly. The seating bowl is too small. That was as good as it got.

[bosrs1]

You can't make America West hockey-friendly. The seating bowl is too small. That was as good as it got.

Which frankly was still better than what they've got now. I'm starting to wonder if that's not the only way to save NHL hockey in Phoenix, send them back downtown. If the Islanders can play at Barclay's Center there's no reason the Coyotes can't do the same. Particularly when it would solve one of the franchise's worst problems with the location of Glendale.

[HedleyLamarr]

You can't make America West hockey-friendly. The seating bowl is too small. That was as good as it got.

Which frankly was still better than what they've got now. I'm starting to wonder if that's not the only way to save NHL hockey in Phoenix, send them back downtown. If the Islanders can play at Barclay's Center there's no reason the Coyotes can't do the same. Particularly when it would solve one of the franchise's worst problems with the location of Glendale.

Don't have me re-hash the reasons why the owner of an arena wouldn't be so interested in a hockey team (especially when they already house a basketball team).

[bosrs1]

You can't make America West hockey-friendly. The seating bowl is too small. That was as good as it got.

Which frankly was still better than what they've got now. I'm starting to wonder if that's not the only way to save NHL hockey in Phoenix, send them back downtown. If the Islanders can play at Barclay's Center there's no reason the Coyotes can't do the same. Particularly when it would solve one of the franchise's worst problems with the location of Glendale.

Don't have me re-hash the reasons why the owner of an arena wouldn't be so interested in a hockey team (especially when they already house a basketball team).

Please do actually. I'd be interested why the owner of the US Airways Arena (the city of Phoenix) wouldn't want another tenant in their venue.

[IceCap]

You can't make America West hockey-friendly. The seating bowl is too small. That was as good as it got.

Which frankly was still better than what they've got now. I'm starting to wonder if that's not the only way to save NHL hockey in Phoenix, send them back downtown. If the Islanders can play at Barclay's Center there's no reason the Coyotes can't do the same. Particularly when it would solve one of the franchise's worst problems with the location of Glendale.

Don't have me re-hash the reasons why the owner of an arena wouldn't be so interested in a hockey team (especially when they already house a basketball team).

Please do actually. I'd be interested why the owner of the US Airways Arena (the city of Phoenix) wouldn't want another tenant in their venue.

Goth already covered it. They can fill the dates easily with concerts, conventions, and the like. They don't need to have a hockey team come in and eat up dates that could go to other events that will likely bring in more revenue. Plus those other events wouldn't be competing against the Suns for advertising money and ticket sales.

[Gothamite]

The City of Phoenix might be interested, unless they already do a good job stocking the Suns' off-dates with concerts and the like (was it Ice Edge who offered to run the Job at a lesser cost if the Coyotes moved by doing just that?).

But the Suns would be better off with the Coyotes out of town, and one less competitor for their dollars.

[bosrs1]

The City of Phoenix might be interested, unless they already do a good job stocking the Suns' off-dates with concerts and the like (was it Ice Edge who offered to run the Job at a lesser cost if the Coyotes moved by doing just that?).

But the Suns would be better off with the Coyotes out of town, and one less competitor for their dollars.

True but the Suns don't own the arena, the city does. And I highly doubt the city couldn't use another 40 or so dates filled up with events bringing in revenue to both them directly at the arena and via increased tax revenue at establishments around the arena. I mean hell just looking at February, they only have events filling 9 days out of 28 this month. Sure seems like a few hockey games thrown in their wouldn't hurt their bottom line.

And as for Ice Caps' comments regarding competing against the Suns for advertising money and ticket sales. With ad sales aren't they already competing with each other since they share the market? 18 miles isn't going to change that dynamic. As for ticket sales, I think you're making a false assumption that buyers of basketball tickets and hockey tickets have a large overlap. They didn't seem to negatively impact each other last time they shared what was then America West Arena.

[njmeadowlanders]

The City of Phoenix might be interested, unless they already do a good job stocking the Suns' off-dates with concerts and the like (was it Ice Edge who offered to run the Job at a lesser cost if the Coyotes moved by doing just that?).

But the Suns would be better off with the Coyotes out of town, and one less competitor for their dollars.

True but the Suns don't own the arena, the city does. And I highly doubt the city couldn't use another 40 or so dates filled up with events bringing in revenue to both them directly at the arena and via increased tax revenue at establishments around the arena. I mean hell just looking at February, they only have events filling 9 days out of 28 this month. Sure seems like a few hockey games thrown in their wouldn't hurt their bottom line.

And as for Ice Caps' comments regarding competing against the Suns for advertising money and ticket sales. With ad sales aren't they already competing with each other since they share the market? 18 miles isn't going to change that dynamic. As for ticket sales, I think you're making a false assumption that buyers of basketball tickets and hockey tickets have a large overlap. They didn't seem to negatively impact each other last time they shared what was then America West Arena.

In these cities with a team in all of the four major sports, it seems that people who are really into sports are into just three: MLB, the NFL, and one of the NBA/NHL--not both. Not that there aren't people who love all four or don't care for baseball or whatever. Just saying that IN GENERAL you don't see a lot of people who are big fans of both hockey AND basketball.

[bosrs1]

The City of Phoenix might be interested, unless they already do a good job stocking the Suns' off-dates with concerts and the like (was it Ice Edge who offered to run the Job at a lesser cost if the Coyotes moved by doing just that?).

But the Suns would be better off with the Coyotes out of town, and one less competitor for their dollars.

True but the Suns don't own the arena, the city does. And I highly doubt the city couldn't use another 40 or so dates filled up with events bringing in revenue to both them directly at the arena and via increased tax revenue at establishments around the arena. I mean hell just looking at February, they only have events filling 9 days out of 28 this month. Sure seems like a few hockey games thrown in their wouldn't hurt their bottom line.

And as for Ice Caps' comments regarding competing against the Suns for advertising money and ticket sales. With ad sales aren't they already competing with each other since they share the market? 18 miles isn't going to change that dynamic. As for ticket sales, I think you're making a false assumption that buyers of basketball tickets and hockey tickets have a large overlap. They didn't seem to negatively impact each other last time they shared what was then America West Arena.

In these cities with a team in all of the four major sports, it seems that people who are really into sports are into just three: MLB, the NFL, and one of the NBA/NHL--not both. Not that there aren't people who love all four or don't care for baseball or whatever. Just saying that IN GENERAL you don't see a lot of people who are big fans of both hockey AND basketball.

Exactly. Most hockey fans I've known tend to be more of a niche anyway and wouldn't buy basketball tickets with or without a hockey team in close proximity. Not to say there aren't those that overlap, I know there I because I'm one of them.

But my bigger point was to refute the idea that the US Airways Center is filling dates with "other events" and that it wouldn't benefit from hockey. It's a false assumption looking at the facts. Fact is in February this year, only 9 dates are filled with Sun and any other events. In March it's even worse with only 2 dates filled with non Suns game (10 Suns games and 2 concerts (one or which is Muse who I just saw in San Diego the other day I'd highly recommend it)). US Airways Center is underutilized for a large civic arena.

[IceCap]

So what if they make the move.....and still no one shows up?

Yes, the Coyotes drew well in the US Airways Centre, but that was when they were fresh off the move and a ready-made playoff team. The Coyotes are only now starting to get good again, and attendance in Glendale indicates they're having a hard time winning back the fans they lost from years of sucking. What if they move to downtown Phoenix, sign a twenty year lease, and still no one shows up because the years of on-ice futility and the financial clusterf*** surrounding the team has permanently damaged the brand? It's kind of like when Rays fans swear up and down that the team would draw well if only they would get a new stadium. Well maybe they would, but why bother risking that when if you're wrong you're further committed to a market that just isn't working?

Besides, who's moving the Coyotes back downtown again? Who's offering to do that again? If the Suns wanted to own them and move them in they'd have done so by now. I'm sure Bettman's already flooded their answering machine.

[bosrs1]

So what if they make the move.....and still no one shows up?

Yes, the Coyotes drew well in the US Airways Centre, but that was when they were fresh off the move and a ready-made playoff team. The Coyotes are only now starting to get good again, and attendance in Glendale indicates they're having a hard time winning back the fans they lost from years of sucking. What if they move to downtown Phoenix, sign a twenty year lease, and still no one shows up because the years of on-ice futility and the financial clusterf*** surrounding the team has permanently damaged the brand? It's kind of like when Rays fans swear up and down that the team would draw well if only they would get a new stadium. Well maybe they would, but why bother risking that when if you're wrong you're further committed to a market that just isn't working?

Besides, who's moving the Coyotes back downtown again? Who's offering to do that again? If the Suns wanted to own them and move them in they'd have done so by now. I'm sure Bettman's already flooded their answering machine.

Technically anyone can buy them and move them downtown. Doesn't have to be the Suns. It's the league it seems more than anything trying to keep them in Glendale as a requirement of someone buying them in the Phoenix area.

And it's a risk sure, but not a big one. It's not a big capital outlay to move them back into an arena that as I understand it, could still host them. If you brought in a committed ownership group (not some half assed guy with no money like Jamison, they have a winning team, put them in good location like downtown Phoenix that doesn't immediately invoke traffic groans from most of the region's hockey fans, do a minor rebrand back to something like their unique and popular original brand and fans very well might come out in the numbers they once did. And if it doesn't work fine, cut your losses and move north. But frankly the mistake wasn't necessarily the Phoenix market, it was the Glendale location and everything that went along with it (rampant team mismanagement, mismanagment by the league, bankruptcy of the former owner, remote location, chronically bad teams, asinine politicians, etc...). The Glendale situation has been the epitome of a storm since day one.

[LMU]

You can't make America West hockey-friendly. The seating bowl is too small. That was as good as it got.

Which frankly was still better than what they've got now. I'm starting to wonder if that's not the only way to save NHL hockey in Phoenix, send them back downtown. If the Islanders can play at Barclay's Center there's no reason the Coyotes can't do the same. Particularly when it would solve one of the franchise's worst problems with the location of Glendale.

Keep in mind that with the Islanders still having a few years in Uniondale that it's possible for Barclays to have some off-season tweaks done to the lower bowl to accomodate the rink.

[bosrs1]

You can't make America West hockey-friendly. The seating bowl is too small. That was as good as it got.

Which frankly was still better than what they've got now. I'm starting to wonder if that's not the only way to save NHL hockey in Phoenix, send them back downtown. If the Islanders can play at Barclay's Center there's no reason the Coyotes can't do the same. Particularly when it would solve one of the franchise's worst problems with the location of Glendale.

Keep in mind that with the Islanders still having a few years in Uniondale that it's possible for Barclays to have some off-season tweaks done to the lower bowl to accomodate the rink.

Tweaks sure, but you can't change the overall design. It's going to be a U shaped arena on the lower level and have obstructed views on the upper even after their tweaks.

[IceCap]

Both the Coyotes and the Panthers made the mistake of moving from downtown locations where they were drawing well to suburban arenas that no one could be bothered to drive to. Even when the NHL gets it right they get it wrong.

Still, I have yet to see a single ownership group step up and say "we'll keep the team in the market, but we're going to move them back downtown." The only people who have expressed interest have been hustlers with no actual money who want to keep them in Glendale or groups who want to move them elsewhere. If moving the team back to the US Airways Centre was the quick fix to save the market I'd imagine it would have, at the very least, been proposed by now. And not just by yahoos on the interwebs.

[TheOldRoman]

The market is bad. Terrible tv ratings last year despite a really good record. If they got great ratings someone might consider it, but now, nobody would take that risk. The Rays analogy is spot on. The only reason they're still in Arizona is because bettman didn't want to admit failure AND set a precedent that "if you build us a multi hundred million dollar palace we still might leave in five years"

[Gothamite]

Tweaks sure, but you can't change the overall design. It's going to be a U shaped arena on the lower level and have obstructed views on the upper even after their tweaks.

Sure, but that shows you how dire the situation is out in Nassau County, and how desperate they are to tap into the city's fanbase, that the Islanders would rather play to capacity crowds in a tiny, ill-suited arena than stay where they are.

[The_Admiral]

They're gonna have egg (cream) on their faces when the team plays well this year and the next two and people go to the Nassau Coliseum again. It's already getting better!