NHL Anti-Thread: Bad Business Decision Aggregator

[BBTV]

I'm sure this has been posted before, as it's two years old. but I just found this article and it far from surprises me. Hockey would've worked SO much better in Phoenix if games were still actually played in Phoenix in a building that they actually fit in. My God, Bettman.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/02/colangelo-back-in-the-day-bettman-told-him-hockey-wouldnt-work-in-the-desert/

My experience in Phoenix is that the "city" of Phoeniz (and I use the term loosely) is vacant after the work day, and the only reason anyone is in "downtown" phoenix after dark is if there's a ball game. Would hockey really work there if the audience lives in scottsdale or Tempe? The Valley sucks to get around in since there's next to no transit and it's all highways, and you can't even have a drink at a game then drive home due to their zero tolerance DUI policy.

[pcgd]

I'm sure this has been posted before, as it's two years old. but I just found this article and it far from surprises me. Hockey would've worked SO much better in Phoenix if games were still actually played in Phoenix in a building that they actually fit in. My God, Bettman.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/02/colangelo-back-in-the-day-bettman-told-him-hockey-wouldnt-work-in-the-desert/

My experience in Phoenix is that the "city" of Phoeniz (and I use the term loosely) is vacant after the work day, and the only reason anyone is in "downtown" phoenix after dark is if there's a ball game.

Same thing could be said of St. Louis (although I think that's changing…it was certainly true in the past) but they draw over really well for baseball and decent for hockey. Not discounting it entirely but if people want to watch the product like they do in most cities, they'll travel for it.

I think when you look at most cities that have a suburban stadium vs. a downtown one, the downtown one typically draws better. I could be proven wrong with facts on that however...

[Gothamite]

I honestly have no idea, but would love to see numbers on that.

[IceCap]

I know the Florida Panthers drew well in downtown Miami. Attendance sort of fell off a cliff when they moved to the middle of the swamp.

[dbadefense1990]

I know the Florida Panthers drew well in downtown Miami. Attendance sort of fell off a cliff when they moved to the middle of the swamp.

So the Panthers and Coyotes share a common problem. They had no problem selling out early on when the teams played within the downtown limits. But they've both been sent to hockey abyss when relocating towards their town's suburbs, either playing alongside the Everglades or Sonoran.

[Gothamite]

But is that related to the arena locations, or the typical burst of initial interest wearing off? And how to we adjust for those variables?

[FiddySicks]

I'm sure this has been posted before, as it's two years old. but I just found this article and it far from surprises me. Hockey would've worked SO much better in Phoenix if games were still actually played in Phoenix in a building that they actually fit in. My God, Bettman.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/02/colangelo-back-in-the-day-bettman-told-him-hockey-wouldnt-work-in-the-desert/

My experience in Phoenix is that the "city" of Phoeniz (and I use the term loosely) is vacant after the work day, and the only reason anyone is in "downtown" phoenix after dark is if there's a ball game. Would hockey really work there if the audience lives in scottsdale or Tempe? The Valley sucks to get around in since there's next to no transit and it's all highways, and you can't even have a drink at a game then drive home due to their zero tolerance DUI policy.

Yeah I think it would work better for downtown even if the audience is in Scottsdale, Tempe, or Mesa (which is where most people in the Phoenix area live) because at least you can catch light rail from Tempe and Mesa to the game. I used to take light rail from where I lived next to the ASU campus in Tempe nearly every day for D Backs games and it was always a smooth and easy way to get downtown, and you don't have to worry about getting a DUI because you can take the Orbit shuttle from the ASU transportation center to any point in Tempe. And downtown isn't as abandoned as (I assume) it once was. There's actually a decent nightlife brewing down there now with the downtown campus. And at least downtown is close to the heart of the metro population. Glendale is still such an outlier that there is absolutely ZERO reason to go out there unless you want to suffer through a Cardinals game or are a homesick Canadian.

Have you ever heard the story about Phoenix Trotting Park, the creepy old horse racing track?

http://www.sbnation.com/2013/7/11/4514706/phoenix-trotting-park-goodyear-arizona-ghost-racetrack

Yeah well, Glendale is actually closer to that than it is to downtown. If that doesn't give people a sense for just how out of the way Glendale is, I don't know what would.

They probably still wouldn't lead the league in attendance if they were downtown, obviously. But they wouldn't be hemorrhaging the states cash while playing out in Afghanistan.

[monkeypower]

But is that related to the arena locations, or the typical burst of initial interest wearing off? And how to we adjust for those variables?

You could look at the California teams. I only really know the Ducks, but they work.

The Honda Center is located in Anaheim and the intial interest has worn off, but they still do alright attendance wise and have a good fanbase.

On the other hand you can't really compare the Anaheim/Orange County city sprawl to the Glendale/Phoenix area.

[Sanic]

I'm sure this has been posted before, as it's two years old. but I just found this article and it far from surprises me. Hockey would've worked SO much better in Phoenix if games were still actually played in Phoenix in a building that they actually fit in. My God, Bettman.

http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/02/colangelo-back-in-the-day-bettman-told-him-hockey-wouldnt-work-in-the-desert/

My experience in Phoenix is that the "city" of Phoeniz (and I use the term loosely) is vacant after the work day, and the only reason anyone is in "downtown" phoenix after dark is if there's a ball game. Would hockey really work there if the audience lives in scottsdale or Tempe? The Valley sucks to get around in since there's next to no transit and it's all highways, and you can't even have a drink at a game then drive home due to their zero tolerance DUI policy.

Yeah I think it would work better for downtown even if the audience is in Scottsdale, Tempe, or Mesa (which is where most people in the Phoenix area live) because at least you can catch light rail from Tempe and Mesa to the game. I used to take light rail from where I lived next to the ASU campus in Tempe nearly every day for D Backs games and it was always a smooth and easy way to get downtown, and you don't have to worry about getting a DUI because you can take the Orbit shuttle from the ASU transportation center to any point in Tempe. And downtown isn't as abandoned as (I assume) it once was. There's actually a decent nightlife brewing down there now with the downtown campus. And at least downtown is close to the heart of the metro population. Glendale is still such an outlier that there is absolutely ZERO reason to go out there unless you want to suffer through a Cardinals game or are a homesick Canadian.

Have you ever heard the story about Phoenix Trotting Park, the creepy old horse racing track?

http://www.sbnation.com/2013/7/11/4514706/phoenix-trotting-park-goodyear-arizona-ghost-racetrack

Yeah well, Glendale is actually closer to that than it is to downtown. If that doesn't give people a sense for just how out of the way Glendale is, I don't know what would.

They probably still wouldn't lead the league in attendance if they were downtown, obviously. But they wouldn't be hemorrhaging the states cash while playing out in Afghanistan.

Here's the question, were those seats sat on more than the ones at Jobing.com Arena?

[pcgd]

Non expansion teams to move from downtown to burbs or visa versa:

Detroit Lions (to downtown)

Washington (to burbs)

49ers (to burbs, future)

Islanders (to city, future)

Braves (to burbs, future)

Pistons (to burbs)

Capitals (to city)

Most of those are NFL which location doesn't matter as much, are in the future, or happened too long ago that it's hard to say how that effects today's landscape. Looks like I was blowing smoke cause there are no numbers really either way.

[DarkJourney]

Wasn't it true that Bettman and the owners steered Winnipeg & Hartford away from Minneapolis-St. Paul in hopes of landing an expansion team there, which they did with the Wild. Now we're stuck with the endless Coyotes saga and Raleigh seems ok for now but who knows.

[Sanic]

Wasn't it true that Bettman and the owners steered Winnipeg & Hartford away from Minneapolis-St. Paul in hopes of landing an expansion team there, which they did with the Wild. Now we're stuck with the endless Coyotes saga and Raleigh seems ok for now but who knows.

Now, what if the Canes played in the TWC Arena, the Panthers played in the AAA with proper stadium renovation?

[The_Admiral]

Wasn't it true that Bettman and the owners steered Winnipeg & Hartford away from Minneapolis-St. Paul in hopes of landing an expansion team there, which they did with the Wild. Now we're stuck with the endless Coyotes saga and Raleigh seems ok for now but who knows.

No. The Jets were purchased by investors from the Cities, who intended to move the team to Minneapolis but couldn't secure a lease at the Target Center. Bettman steered them to Phoenix, where they eventually sold the team to more Phoenix-based interests. As for the Whalers, Karmanos was interested in Auburn Hills most of all because he's a Detroit guy, and was so enthusiastic about Columbus over Hartford that he volunteered to play in an abandoned aircraft hangar while the city built him an arena. I don't remember Minnesota being involved.

[RyanMcD29]

Wasn't it true that Bettman and the owners steered Winnipeg & Hartford away from Minneapolis-St. Paul in hopes of landing an expansion team there, which they did with the Wild. Now we're stuck with the endless Coyotes saga and Raleigh seems ok for now but who knows.

Now, what if the Canes played in the TWC Arena, the Panthers played in the AAA with proper stadium renovation?

Eh, I think the Canes are much better off in Raleigh than Charlotte. Sure you have research triangle college hoops, but you're not competing against the Panthers and Hornets for ticket dollars. Plus IIRC the transplant population's higher in the Raleigh-Durham area than Charlotte.

[The_Admiral]

I don't think an NHL team really belongs in either one. If you want a small market with lots of knowledge-based jobs and a liking for hockey, one could point to the Hartford-New Haven-Springfield area.

[dbadefense1990]

Wasn't it true that Bettman and the owners steered Winnipeg & Hartford away from Minneapolis-St. Paul in hopes of landing an expansion team there, which they did with the Wild. Now we're stuck with the endless Coyotes saga and Raleigh seems ok for now but who knows.

No. The Jets were purchased by investors from the Cities, who intended to move the team to Minneapolis but couldn't secure a lease at the Target Center. Bettman steered them to Phoenix, where they eventually sold the team to more Phoenix-based interests. As for the Whalers, Karmanos was interested in Auburn Hills most of all because he's a Detroit guy, and was so enthusiastic about Columbus over Hartford that he volunteered to play in an abandoned aircraft hangar while the city built him an arena. I don't remember Minnesota being involved.

Didn't the Target Center have the same hockey-structured problems America West Arena in Phoenix had? Because I always though that the TC first-and-foremost was made for the NBA's Timberwolves (unlike most other NBA/NHL arenas where both sports were in consideration for their plans), with problems arising when a hockey game is played there.

[The_Admiral]

It loses some seats in the ends, but it's centered and still seems to seat about 17,000.

It's not ideal, but it's preferable to not having a hockey team at all. The Stars or Jets could have played there if the Timberwolves would have let them.

[smith03]

target center was remodel a bit in 2004 to make it a better or basketball only set up prior to that it was built to work for hockey as well as basketball, it really came done to the lease and that in part is why you see so many more basketball or hockey only arenas now, nobody wants to be the lesser of "equals"

[smith03]

I can't link but if you go to youtube and type in hockey at target center you find a small video of 1999 (pre 2004 renovations) boys high school hockey and you make up your own mind

[The_Admiral]

This video?

Yeah, that's as much a hockey bowl as there's ever been. The Timberwolves can go eat a wedding cake of crap. I'm glad they'll suck forever now.