NHL Anti-Thread: Bad Business Decision Aggregator

[HedleyLamarr]

12 hours ago, Cosmic said:

I'm sure that's true, but they would play seven more games against the Pacific division than they do now in the East.  Seven.  And that could be fewer 10 PM starts; I'm not sure how Arizona's time stubbornness works.

As things currently stand, Detroit gets 21 games against the Original Six...games they covet.  If they were still in the West, that number would be 15.  And, they have two normal-size West Coast swings (3-5 games long) instead of 3-4 West Coast trips.

[Still MIGHTY]

Blackhawks probably covet those Original Six games too. They probably also don't care for West Coast road trips. And like Detroit, they've been a model franchise and had success in their current "maligned" state. So let's flip Chicago and Columbus. That makes sense, of course. Chicago has such deep ties! They've developed no history, success, or rivalries in their time in the West! Just like Detroit of course!

 

Look, I'm fine not having to deal with Red Wings fans more than I need to in any given season. (Also, the Wings have to travel while in the West? Boo  ing hoo. No Pacific team will shed a tear over the Red Wings travel budget. Anaheim to Edmonton/Calgary/Winnipeg on a regular basis isn't that fun either. Or multiple trips to the NYC area. Or 7-game swings through the East. Whatever.) However, I do miss the little competitive rivalry the Ducks and Wings had, and really, the other thing that moving Detroit to the East did is that it royally screwed over the Western Conference when it comes to national TV exposure.

 

As the NBC Seven goes, the only time the West gets any prime assignment goes is when they're playing 6 of the 7 in the East (either in the East or the East is playing in Dallas/St. Louis), and usually, the only all-West match-ups we get are against the Blackhawks. I know there are plenty of reasons for it (start times, obviously, and ratings, other obviously), but because of those reasons, the window to the West for the national TV audience is through Chicago and Chicago only. And while having Detroit in the West was just one more option, I do feel like there was better coverage of the Western Conference when the Wings were also around in it.

 

Sure, they'll show the occasional game in Dallas or St. Louis or Minnesota on a Tuesday on NBCSN and yes, they'll sometimes throw a bone with a second game after the Eastern game... by grabbing the Sharks Comcast feed... But there's no reason, because they've done it in the playoffs when they're forced to, that they couldn't get a Ducks/Kings/Sharks game on NBC at noon or 1 pm Pacific on Saturday or Sunday in the regular season.

 

Anyway, Western Conference/Pacific Division/Sun Belt fan rant over. I have no time for complaints about start times or travel miles.

[BeerGuyJordan]

The main thing is that we are all pretty much viewing it as fans. The business side of it for Detroit and Columbus doesn't match up to that well.

 

If any of Detroit and Columbus should have stayed behind, it was arguably Detroit. They are marginally further west, and can shoulder the added travel costs. Detroit has no difficulty regularly selling out games, while Columbus would, theoretically, benefit more from the attendance boost from facing the more "storied" teams. 

 

At this point, I think the best we can realistically hope for is a Vegas expansion, Carolina to Quebec, and the league giving Seattle a little time to get their act together. If they don't, the only three real potential western markets I can think of are Portland, and maybe Milwaukee or Houston.

 

As a Preds fan, I would be open to moving to the EC, but there's almost no likelihood there.

[The_Admiral]

3 hours ago, BeerGuyJordan said:

Detroit has no difficulty regularly selling out games

It's getting butts in the sold seats that appears to be the problem. You've seen one Datsyukian deke, you've seen 'em all, huh, guys?

[Sodboy13]

Okay, let's think about everything that's gone on in the past four years, and everything it's presumably been set up for. Now, let's transcend stupid.

 

https://twitter.com/MurphysLaw74/status/739933875489640448?s=09

[rams80]

Do I still get partial credit for predicting that expansion would be cancelled with Las Vegas getting a moved franchise and Quebec being SOL if I thought it was the Coyotes that were going to move?

[The_Admiral]

No Hope Left

[Cosmic]

Quebec should seriously sue if they don't get their "deposit" back. It really seems like they'll do anything they can to keep a team from Quebec City.

[BBTV]

I don't think it's much of a loss to pro sports for the Hurricanes to move, and if the only alternative is expansion then I'm all for it, but I'd rather them move for the benefit of a more stable / desirable hockey market than for fugging Las Vegas.  The NFL could maybe work in Las Vegas just based on visiting fan road trips and stadium-based revenue (can't imagine TV deals being impacted positively by a team there) but the NHL has no shot.

[The_Admiral]

Las Vegas is gonna be hot garbage when it comes to TV households. As I can't emphasize enough, whatever faults Hartford qua Hartford has or had, I'll take a TV channel that gives me all of New England minus Fairfield County (and it's arguable a Connecticut team would get CSNNE limited carriage in Fairfield) over, well, basically just Nevada. That's five times the population in about two-thirds the area. I think Peter "Robbing Peter Junior To Pay Staal" Karmanos would agree more than he'd care to admit, being the kind of stubborn ass who has doubled down on stupid more times than I can count offhand.

[ninersdd]

I'll take it that Vegas would presumably be in the Pacific next year(or year after)?

[BeerGuyJordan]

15 hours ago, ninersdd said:

I'll take it that Vegas would presumably be in the Pacific next year(or year after)?

There's almost no way they wouldn't be, imo. They're Pacific time zone, and further west than Phoenix.

 

17 hours ago, Sodboy13 said:

Okay, let's think about everything that's gone on in the past four years, and everything it's presumably been set up for. Now, let's transcend stupid.

 

https://twitter.com/MurphysLaw74/status/739933875489640448?s=09

I feel like this could make too much sense for the League to actually do. Considering it, sure...but they can't actually force Papa K to sell the Hurricanes, just "encourage," I believe.

 

If you look at the stats, prospect market and the overall picture, the League could support two more teams. That being said there are still five or six teams I would rather see stabilized/relocated before expansion occurs. Taking a risk with Vegas seems a lot more sensible than keeping a floundering team in Raleigh.

 

The Hurricanes aren't holding such a najor market that the league should hold on too tightly. The Phoenix, Columbus, and Miami markets are, possibly, worth one big push to stabalize before considering relocation. 

 

There's no immediate danger for the Islanders, but their attendance took a dive in their first season in Brooklyn. It's safe to assume there will be a further drop off as the excitement of hockey in the borough wears off, for some, and the travel from LI wears down some of the older fans. The team needs to connect with Brooklyn and create new "local" fans. Barclays gave them a sweet deal, but there's an eject button in the agreement, and attendance is pretty much the only real factor in whether or not it gets used.

[rams80]

Vegas isn't a risk.  Vegas is an all-but-certain catastrophe.

[IceCap]

2 hours ago, BeerGuyJordan said:

If you look at the stats, prospect market and the overall picture, the League could support two more teams. That being said there are still five or six teams I would rather see stabilized/relocated before expansion occurs. Taking a risk with Vegas seems a lot more sensible than keeping a floundering team in Raleigh.

Putting the team in a market that's a garunteed success, like Quebec City, would be an even better idea.

 

The Hurricanes aren't holding such a najor market that the league should hold on too tightly. The Phoenix, Columbus, and Miami markets are, possibly, worth one big push to stabalize before considering relocation.

How many "one last chances" are the Phoenix Arizona Coyotes going to get to make the market work?

[BeerGuyJordan]

1 hour ago, Ice_Cap said:

Putting the team in a market that's a garunteed success, like Quebec City, would be an even better idea.

 

 

 

How many "one last chances" are the Phoenix Arizona Coyotes going to get to make the market work?

I've been saying Carolina to Quebec would be the best way to proceed, but I was commenting on the link stating "Carolina to Vegas".

 

As for the Coyotes *shrugs*. I spent my teens in Arizona, and you almost never heard anything about the Coyotes. I have a soft spot for them and agree that what they're doing hasn't worked. The League, however, has proven they don't want to lose the market.

 

I've said for awhile that a central location and better marketing/management could turn the franchise around. With a new arena (possibly) around the corner, indications of a possible return to on-ice competitiveness, the Tucson AHL team, and the new GM, I say give it a shot. This could be the Coyotes' best (and possibly last) chance for a turnaround.

 

The bottom line is that, with the league not wanting to give up markets and appear unstable, they'll probably give Miami, Columbus and Phoenix time to course-correct. I think it could be justified, as long as they dump the Hurricanes somewhere else immediately and reassess where those three are after the dust settles on that move.

[The_Admiral]

Columbus is doing fine enough. They haven't brought shame upon themselves by getting kicked out of their arena or cleaning out the owner's kids' inheritances, which is good. You can't reasonably expect a place like Columbus to have a much higher ceiling than just puttering along.

[BeerGuyJordan]

7 minutes ago, the admiral said:

Columbus is doing fine enough. They haven't brought shame upon themselves by getting kicked out of their arena or cleaning out the owner's kids' inheritances, which is good. You can't reasonably expect a place like Columbus to have a much higher ceiling than just puttering along.

I like Columbus, and I think that on-ice success is the only missing piece.

 

That being said, you can't deny that their average attendance, the past 5 years is 26th (only the Islanders, Panthers, Coyotes and Hurricanes were lower), and their capacity hit has been 81.8% (above only Carolina and Arizona). Their merchandise sales are bottom 4 (some brands don't even carry CBJ items), and the only reason they aren't losing money is profit-sharing.

 

There are stronger candidates for relocation, but Columbus deserves to be mentioned.

[Sport]

On 6/4/2016 at 5:59 PM, HedleyLamarr said:

Did the NHL not make a promise to move Detroit back to the Eastern Conference as soon as the next chance came up?  Can't fault the Red Wings for requesting the NHL to follow through on said deal.

 

You absolutely can fault them for that when A. it wasn't detrimental to the Red Wings as an operation and B. a new team joined the league east of them, which means the handshake agreement should've been off the table because the conditions when the agreement were made had changed. The "next chance" for the Red Wings was not when the Thrashers moved to Winnipeg, it's when the Hurricanes move to Vegas. 

 

Who you can't fault is Columbus for where it's located on a map. When the Thrashers came in they didn't put them in the west and tell them "Deal with it. The Red Wings wanna be in the east and you haven't done anything yet to earn clout". Someone had to move East and it's a little bit ridiculous to argue Detroit should go just based on pedigree in a league where everyone is divided geographically, rivalries be damned. 

 

On 6/4/2016 at 5:59 PM, HedleyLamarr said:

It's not about suffering or winning four Cups or being The Model Franchise of the NHL for the last 25 years.  If there's a "Get over it" attitude towards a team, it should be directed towards the newer franchise that's been spinning their tires for 15 seasons.  "You should be thankful you have a team, Columbus. You have no history with anyone, and no one considers you to be a rival....whereas Detroit deep history with a lot of teams in the East.  Be a little more successful and you might earn some clout, especially when that clout gets matched up with one of the blue-bloods of the NHL.  You're 16 years old now...get your crap together, do something, and until then...get over it."

Problems with this:

1. Being new doesn't mean you don't get a fair shake. Not having done anything doesn't mean the league, predicated on parity, should make it intrinsically more difficult for one of its franchises to compete. 

 

2. There's absolutely no precedent from any sports league for "you have to prove that you belong before we will make things more fair for you" or the established franchises get what they want because they're established and you're not. There is precedent for teams playing in comically out of place divisions (Vancouver in the Eastern Conference, Tampa in the west), but each one was eventually moved back to a more suitable situation and they didn't have to do it through any sort of earned clout. 

 

3. I'm very thankful that we have an NHL team. They're my favorite team in sports and I love following them, but I am capable of being thankful I have a team and at the same time asking that said team gets to play in their geographically appropriate division in the interest of fair play. 

 

 

[Sport]

2 hours ago, BeerGuyJordan said:

I like Columbus, and I think that on-ice success is the only missing piece.

 

That being said, you can't deny that their average attendance, the past 5 years is 26th (only the Islanders, Panthers, Coyotes and Hurricanes were lower), and their capacity hit has been 81.8% (above only Carolina and Arizona). Their merchandise sales are bottom 4 (some brands don't even carry CBJ items), and the only reason they aren't losing money is profit-sharing.

 

There are stronger candidates for relocation, but Columbus deserves to be mentioned.

All issues that can be solved with some winning seasons and playoff success. Like Pittsburgh, like Chicago, like Nashville, like St Louis etc etc. I don't know why every other market gets the benefit of the doubt when similar attendance struggles (if not much worse) have gone hand-in-hand with their losing. 

 

I don't want to say the market is a sleeping giant because Columbus will never be a giant, but it has potential to provide value to the league. I think we've shown that in the very brief periods when the team's been competitive. 

[BeerGuyJordan]

36 minutes ago, McCarthy said:

All issues that can be solved with some winning seasons and playoff success. Like Pittsburgh, like Chicago, like Nashville, like St Louis etc etc. I don't know why every other market gets the benefit of the doubt when similar attendance struggles (if not much worse) have gone hand-in-hand with their losing. 

 

I don't want to say the market is a sleeping giant because Columbus will never be a giant, but it has potential to provide value to the league. I think we've shown that in the very brief periods when the team's been competitive. 

I get what you're saying, and as a fellow small market fan, I understand the statement ruffling your feathers.

 

I personally think that Columbus has the most patient and longsuffering fans,  they don't have former glories to rest on like Toronto. I also feel that a couple of deep playoff runs could be enough to stabalize the market for a long time.

 

That doesn't change the fact that, if we're discussing relocation, the four franchises you need to discuss are the Hurricanes, Coyotes, Panthers and Blue Jackets. The Islanders got their heads off the block for a few years while the dusr settles from the Brooklyn move (though early numbers aren't encouraging). The two to keep an eye on, that are flirting with that line, are Dallas and New Jersey. 

 

Columbus is probably the strongest argument of the 4, for not moving. Carolina has won a cup, Florida won their conference once. The fact that the Blue Jackets have stronger numbers despite only 2 first round knock-outs in the post season is a testament to the fans.