SilverBullet1929

Miami Marlins 2019 Rebrand

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4 hours ago, SilverBullet1929 said:

Now as I type that I wonder if we're actually doing the Yankees a disservice by implying that their seriousness is stuck up and boring.

No one’s saying that. 

What I am saying, however, is that it’s an attitude that works for the Yankees.

 

The Marlins are not the Yankees. 

 

3 hours ago, SilverBullet1929 said:

How are the Cardinals the definitive cornball organization? I've always heard of them as a respectable franchise for as long as I could remember. 

Their “best fans in baseball”/ “we play the game the right way” slogans and legions of followers who wear jorts unironically is pretty cornball. 

 

It’s pure Midwestern kitsch.

 

4 hours ago, Marlins93 said:

Jeter is not the majority owner but he's clearly the control person. While I doubt he's the person picking up the phone and calling general managers for trade negotiations, it seems likely that he has final say on trades and dictates overall strategy, providing heavy input. I think he is involved enough on the baseball side of things to hold him accountable if the Marlins don't compete within a reasonable amount of time.

How do you know that? Jeter’s the “control person”? He’s not the majority owner. I doubt he can do anything without Bruce Sherman’s say-so. 

 

Whether Jeter really is the guy building the team or not? I’ll concede that’s the act that’s being put forward. And do you really think he’ll take any blame if the team he assembles underperforms?

You’ll always have people making excuses for Jeter and ignoring Sherman’s existence, all while finding way to blame everything wrong with the team on Loria and Samson. 

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Sherman is the top guy (because he put in by far the most money of any investor) and has official final say but he has openly said he's given the reigns to Jeter who is only with Sherman because of the power Sherman has allowed him.

 

Jeter almost purchased the team alongside Jeb Bush but they didn't proceed because Bush wouldn't allow Jeter to lead the decision making. Sherman has admitted he doesn't have experience running anything baseball related so he is more than willing to ok whatever Jeter asks for. So yes Sherman is the top but it's pretty understood that Jeter is the guy ok'ing the big decisions, with Sherman basically "ok'ing Jeter's ok's."

 

With that said, I've also seen several reports saying that Jeter isn't sticking his nose where it doesn't belong. President of Baseball Operations (aka GM) Mike Hill says that, unlike previous ownership, Jeter doesn't get involved in the daily GM tasks. Jeter basically gives Hill and his department a direction but they do what they have to do and then basically only get back to Jeter when things have progressed and ok's are needed to move forward. So while Jeter is very much the boss he also isn't meddling. 

 

For comparison, David Samson says that Loria negotiated a contract with free agent John Buck's agents and set years and dollar amounts  (basically asked the agents what they wanted and just gave it to them) and then contacted baseball operations to tell them the deal to give Buck. Samson says baseball operations didn't think Buck would be a good fit on their team and if anything not for the years and dollars that Loria agreed to but their hands were tied. What's the point of having a baseball operations department if the owner is gonna just do their job for them? 

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Their “best fans in baseball”/ “we play the game the right way” slogans and legions of followers who wear jorts unironically is pretty cornball. 

 

I understand the dislike for the BFIB thing.  I get it.  But let's be honest, most fans of other teams think they're the BFIB.  I don't think there is such a thing.  All teams have down to earth fans that appreciate the game and can acknowledge when an opposing player makes a great play.  All teams have ridiculous, pain in the butt, annoying fans.  It's just how it works.  The problem for the Cardinals is, there are some fans that toot that horn based off comments from players of other teams who have made that claim.  Personally, I think it gets blown out of proportion, but again, I can understand the disdain other fans have when they hear it.

 

As for "we play the game the right way", I'm not sure why that is considered cornball.  I think all teams should follow that philosophy and all fans should demand it of the team they support.  Obviously any team is going to go through a funk, but I don't think any real fan would be content with a team that went out on the field and played like crap and didn't care.  If there are players who give off an attitude of not caring or playing hard, I think it's perfectly legit for the fan base to be upset by that.  

 

If any of those things make me (or the Cardinals) cornball, then I guess I'm ok with being a cornball.

 

PS:  I don't wear jorts, nor have I personally witnessed any fans wearing said jorts on my many visits to Busch every year.

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Sherman has been a ghost since buying the team. He's there to use the team as in investment, not necessarily be involved. And as Le Batard joked, be friends with Derek Jeter! So while Sherman probably has to sign off on trading away Realmuto, Jeter is still clearly the guy in control of most operations and dictating overall strategy. Sherman could not be more hands off. So I absolutely think Jeter needs to be held accountable if the team isn't competing in a few years. Remember that the Jeter and Jeb Bush partnership fell apart because they were both fighting over who would be the control person in the instance that they acquired the team.

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4 hours ago, CardsFan79 said:

As for "we play the game the right way", I'm not sure why that is considered cornball. 

 

It’s not. 

 

Loudly proclaiming it at every opportunity, on the other hand.... 😉

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I think there’s a good median word for all of this. 

 

Cornball. 

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I've been a baseball fan for 25 years and have never felt like the Cardinals or their fans rub The BFIB or The Cardinal Way in everyone's faces. This is the first time I've ever heard of this. 

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6 hours ago, CardsFan79 said:

 

I understand the dislike for the BFIB thing.  I get it.  But let's be honest, most fans of other teams think they're the BFIB.  I don't think there is such a thing.

Nope - it's a Cardinal thing.

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BFIB and the Cardinal Way have been marketing tools towards the Cardinals fan base more than a proclamation towards the rest of baseball. If you go to a game at Busch, you’ll see the Cardinals calling their fans in attendance the best in baseball. Most teams across all sports claim this distinction (especially when they are winning). 

 

The Cardinal Way is more of a draw on the team’s history especially in regards to hustling and defense. As of late, some factions of the fan base have used it against Cardinals management to express their distastisfaction with the team’s performance. 

 

As a Cardinals fan I realize that after the Yankees, the Cardinals may be the most disliked team by other fan bases in baseball. Continue to dislike them if you want to, but these slogans have been developed more towards Cardinals fans than anything else. 

 

 

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Outside of these boards I've never heard of "The Cardinal Way" or "best fans in baseball" and I've been watching/following baseball for 25+ years. 

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10 hours ago, CardsFan79 said:

 

I understand the dislike for the BFIB thing.  I get it.  But let's be honest, most fans of other teams think they're the BFIB.  I don't think there is such a thing.  All teams have down to earth fans that appreciate the game and can acknowledge when an opposing player makes a great play.  All teams have ridiculous, pain in the butt, annoying fans.  It's just how it works.  The problem for the Cardinals is, there are some fans that toot that horn based off comments from players of other teams who have made that claim.  Personally, I think it gets blown out of proportion, but again, I can understand the disdain other fans have when they hear it.

 

As for "we play the game the right way", I'm not sure why that is considered cornball.  I think all teams should follow that philosophy and all fans should demand it of the team they support.  Obviously any team is going to go through a funk, but I don't think any real fan would be content with a team that went out on the field and played like crap and didn't care.  If there are players who give off an attitude of not caring or playing hard, I think it's perfectly legit for the fan base to be upset by that.  

 

If any of those things make me (or the Cardinals) cornball, then I guess I'm ok with being a cornball.

 

PS:  I don't wear jorts, nor have I personally witnessed any fans wearing said jorts on my many visits to Busch every year.

Thank you for proving my point :) 

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22 hours ago, SilverBullet1929 said:

*snipped for space* 

I guess I’ll just get right to it then so there’s no confusion where I’m coming from. 

 

First off, something innocent. 

I think Jeter’s attempt to “serious-up” the Marlins is dumb. You want to build a winning culture? Win games. Everything else, literally everything else, is meaningless fluff next to getting Ws. And all of the pretence to “changing the culture” won’t mean anything if they aren’t winning. 

 

Secondly? Something else that’s innocent. 

I think the new identity has some cool ideas (neon, kind of an 80s look, bright colours on a black base) but I don’t think they pulled those ideas off well. 

The logos and wordmark look like they came right out of the mid 2000s (despite those cool shirts swinging hard for the 80s) and the red and blue don’t pop on the field. 

I think the logos and uniforms could have used a few revisions to really bring the potential inherent in the concept out. As is? It’s just kind of underwhelming. 

 

Thirdly? Here’s what bugs me about the Marlins ownership discussion. This is far from innocent. 

Jeff Loria and David Samson are two Jewish men who are being vilified with antisemitic tropes of being greedy and out to screw others. All while not-Jewish Derrick Jeter is held up as Doing the Right Thing while Jeter’s Jewish partner Bruce Sherman is ignored. 

 

Now is Loria a scumbag? Yeah (Samson I’m not so sure because I think he’s just playing a pro wrestling heel at this point) but Loria gets it FAR worse then other owners who are just as bad, if not worse, than he was. 

 

Media (and this includes the news) tends to reflect pop culture back to us, and antisemitic notions about Jewish people being materialistic and greedy are still alive in our pop culture. 

As a result Jewish owners who are greedy or otherwise just bad for whatever reason get attacked disproportionately. Jewish team owners who don’t fit that narrative are just ignored. 

 

This goes beyond just the Marlins (you could do a study in how the media treats Jeff Vinik compared to Stan Kroenke despite the fact that both tend to put their own money into their projects and are interested in revitalizing their teams’ communities) but the Marlins provide a convenient internalized example. 

 

And to make this clear. I’m not saying you or anyone else in this thread is antisemitic. 

I’m just pointing out how a lot of bigoted attitudes get echoed in the media and how a lot of us go along with it without realizing what’s happening.  

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Maybe it's the Missourian in me, but I really don't see how the Cardinals are any more insufferable than the Cubs or Red Sox. I say this as a Royals fan who's largely apathetic towards STL. 

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1 hour ago, Ice_Cap said:

Thirdly? Here’s what bugs me about the Marlins ownership discussion. This is far from innocent. 

Jeff Loria and David Samson are two Jewish men who are being vilified with antisemitic tropes of being greedy and out to screw others. All while not-Jewish Derrick Jeter is held up as Doing the Right Thing while Jeter’s Jewish partner Bruce Sherman is ignored. 

 

Now is Loria a scumbag? Yeah (Samson I’m not so sure because I think he’s just playing a pro wrestling heel at this point) but Loria gets it FAR worse then other owners who are just as bad, if not worse, than he was. 

 

Media (and this includes the news) tends to reflect pop culture back to us, and antisemitic notions about Jewish people being materialistic and greedy are still alive in our pop culture. 

As a result Jewish owners who are greedy or otherwise just bad for whatever reason get attacked disproportionately. Jewish team owners who don’t fit that narrative are just ignored. 

 

This goes beyond just the Marlins (you could do a study in how the media treats Jeff Vinik compared to Stan Kroenke despite the fact that both tend to put their own money into their projects and are interested in revitalizing their teams’ communities) but the Marlins provide a convenient internalized example. 

 

And to make this clear. I’m not saying you or anyone else in this thread is antisemitic. 

I’m just pointing out how a lot of bigoted attitudes get echoed in the media and how a lot of us go along with it without realizing what’s happening.  

 

That’s a very fascinating point. I hadn’t really thought of that before.

 

Loria/Samson almost get exclusive blame for what happened to the Expos, ignorant of what Brochu and the Quebec separatists did to put Loria and Samson in such a bad position. They didn’t help, but the “save the Expos” ship had long sailed away by the time he purchased the team.

 

Loria’s fire sales were probably not as damaging to the long-term health as Huizenga’s ‘97-‘98 giveaway (an early run of success  is critical to build upon), but people will mostly forgive “Captain Video” because of their nostalgia for Blockbuster or some bleep like that.

 

Am I defending Loria? No. I’m saying that his awfulness gets a tad blown out of proportion. Plenty of owners come to a head with city officials for stadium handouts, force their aesthetic preferences on a team, and do some ill-planned activities, but Loria got extra venom.

 

Of course, Kroenke gets villified for the whole “trying to move a team (even though I’d argue he was righting a wrong)”/“ranchers commiting suicide” part. I’m not defending his critics, I’m just putting that out there. That’s why he’d get more heat than Jeff Vinik.

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34 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Of course, Kroenke gets villified for the whole “trying to move a team (even though I’d argue he was righting a wrong)”/“ranchers commiting suicide” part. I’m not defending his critics, I’m just putting that out there. That’s why he’d get more heat than Jeff Vinik.

Hehe, I actually meat it the other way around. While Kroenke (who isn't Jewish) certainly gets heat for moving his team? He is (rightfully) celebrated for the fact that he's paying for the new LA stadium with his own money.

Whereas Vinik (who is Jewish) refurbished the Lightning's arena on his own dime and is developing the land around it in a way that will benefit the entire community economically.

 

I think both ought to be commended for their efforts, both in not taking money they don't need and for putting money into the area around their respective venues. It's just that I've seen media far more willing to give Kroenke props whereas Vinik's pretty much an unknown. I only had the faintest idea of what he was doing before moving to Tampa, and that's just because I post here. Where we tend to follow stuff like this in Sports in General. I had no idea the extent of the money his was pouring into downtown Tampa until I actually got here.

 

Granted, Kronke's doing something similar with a NFL team, and that's always going to grab headlines a NHL team won't. Still? I find it curiously correlates to a lot of what I said above. Vinik's a Jewish businessman and sports owner who doesn't meddle, spends his own money on his arena, and gives back to his team's community. And yet he's essentially unknown. And I would say a lot of that springs from the fact that it goes against what popular culture expects from a Jewish person of wealth and means.

I mean hell. Vinik, like Sherman, was in the shadow of a non-Jewish former player. Yzerman in Vinik's case and Jeter in Sherman's. Though in Yzerman's case I get it. He was hired to be the GM. Whereas Jeter's role in Marlins ownership seems to be "hype guy everyone loves."

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3 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

Hehe, I actually meat it the other way around. While Kroenke (who isn't Jewish) certainly gets heat for moving his team? He is (rightfully) celebrated for the fact that he's paying for the new LA stadium with his own money.

Whereas Vinik (who is Jewish) refurbished the Lightning's arena on his own dime and is developing the land around it in a way that will benefit the entire community economically.

 

I think both ought to be commended for their efforts, both in not taking money they don't need and for putting money into the area around their respective venues. It's just that I've seen media far more willing to give Kroenke props whereas Vinik's pretty much an unknown. I only had the faintest idea of what he was doing before moving to Tampa, and that's just because I post here. Where we tend to follow stuff like this in Sports in General. I had no idea the extent of the money his was pouring into downtown Tampa until I actually got here.

 

Granted, Kronke's doing something similar with a NFL team, and that's always going to grab headlines a NHL team won't. Still? I find it curiously correlates to a lot of what I said above. Vinik's a Jewish businessman and sports owner who doesn't meddle, spends his own money on his arena, and gives back to his team's community. And yet he's essentially unknown. And I would say a lot of that springs from the fact that it goes against what popular culture expects from a Jewish person of wealth and means.

I mean hell. Vinik, like Sherman, was in the shadow of a non-Jewish former player. Yzerman in Vinik's case and Jeter in Sherman's. Though in Yzerman's case I get it. He was hired to be the GM. Whereas Jeter's role in Marlins ownership seems to be "hype guy everyone loves."

 

Ah, that makes much more sense. Whoops.

 

It does correlate. Jewish owners not playing to outdated and troubling stereotypes just doesn't generate news. I've always found it funny when conspiritards try to argue that the media is "Jewish-controlled," when it so often perpetuates the problematic stereotypes and doesn't seem all that invested in putting positive Jewish voices at the forefront.

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39 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Loria/Samson almost get exclusive blame for what happened to the Expos, ignorant of what Brochu and the Quebec separatists did to put Loria and Samson in such a bad position. They didn’t help, but the “save the Expos” ship had long sailed away by the time he purchased the team.

I think Loria pretty much Major League'd the Expos, but I would say he was only in the position to do that because of what you pointed out. Montreal was, for a very long time, the centre of Anglophone culture in Quebec. There was a thriving English Canadian community in the city and the Expos' fanbase primarily came from that population centre. Bill 101 and the two independence referendums drove A LOT of English Canadians away, and the Anglophone community in Montreal is a shell of what it once was. I'm not saying there were no Francophone Expos fans, but the fact is the fanbase for that team was primarily English speaking.

 

So combine the fleeing Anglophone population with the uncertainty over the provincial economy following two independence referendums? And yeah. It was the perfect storm to leave the Expos with no local fanbase and no real prospects to rely on provincial or municipal support for a new (desperately needed) stadium. Honestly? I think MLB saw the writing on the wall and brought Loria in as the axe man. He probably doesn't even get the team if reality were such that the Expos were still viable post-1995.

 

44 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Loria’s fire sales were probably not as damaging to the long-term health as Huizenga’s ‘97-‘98 giveaway (an early run of success  is critical to build upon), but people will mostly forgive “Captain Video” because of their nostalgia for Blockbuster or some bleep like that.

That's a really interesting case. As someone not from Florida? I thought the same guy who sold off the '98 team sold off the '03 team. The Marlins always existed on the periphery of my sports world so you just sort of assume that when the team's gutted twice, after two World Series titles? It's gotta be the same ownership/management. Nope.

Your point is right though. Huizenga and Loria both sold off championship teams to slash payroll, but I would say the idea that the Marlins sell off talent is almost entirely associated with Loria.

 

48 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Am I defending Loria? No. I’m saying that his awfulness gets a tad blown out of proportion. Plenty of owners come to a head with city officials for stadium handouts, force their aesthetic preferences on a team, and do some ill-planned activities, but Loria got extra venom.

That's my point, really. As far as the Marlins go anyway. Loria is a scummy businessman who dicked over taxpayers so he wouldn't have to pay for his stadium. And I don't mean to be callous, but my reaction to Loria hate when the above is brought up is "...and?"

Scour every major league in North America. MLB, the NFL, NHL, NBA, MLS. You'll find plenty of Jeffrey Lorias, but Loria seems to hold a special place in the collective subconscious as the worst of the worst. Even Dean Spanos, who screwed over a city his team had played in for over fifty years, is depicted as more a bumbling idiot than a malicious and greedy cancer. Despite the fact that it was Spanos' naked greed that torpedoed any legitimate negotiations with the city of San Diego.

 

Truth be told I never thought much about the hate Loria (and Samson as his right hand guy) got until I realized that Jeter's money man is himself Jewish. And it dawned on me that Sherman's pretty much ignored so people can praise Jeter, whereas Loria and Samson get dragged through the mud.

 

What makes this a difficult conversation is the fact that Jeffrey Loria is legitimately pretty terrible, but I feel like his terribleness is overly focused on because it fits so nicely with antisemitic attitudes that pervade our culture.

Or to put it another way? As Ruxin in The League once said..."My Jewishness is the least offensive thing about me." 

 

12 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

It does correlate. Jewish owners not playing to outdated and troubling stereotypes just doesn't generate news. I've always found it funny when conspiritards try to argue that the media is "Jewish-controlled," when it so often perpetuates the problematic stereotypes and doesn't seem all that invested in putting positive Jewish voices at the forefront.

A lot of that stuff is fundamentally unworkable as a tenable world view. If Jewish people had a cabal that controlled the media like some people assume? Then antisemitic tropes wouldn't be as widespread as they are. It's an idea that exists for hateful people to latch onto, but it doesn't work if you think about it for more than a nano-second.

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14 hours ago, Ice_Cap said:

Thirdly? Here’s what bugs me about the Marlins ownership discussion. This is far from innocent. 

Jeff Loria and David Samson are two Jewish men who are being vilified with antisemitic tropes of being greedy and out to screw others. All while not-Jewish Derrick Jeter is held up as Doing the Right Thing while Jeter’s Jewish partner Bruce Sherman is ignored. 

 

Now is Loria a scumbag? Yeah (Samson I’m not so sure because I think he’s just playing a pro wrestling heel at this point) but Loria gets it FAR worse then other owners who are just as bad, if not worse, than he was. 

 

Media (and this includes the news) tends to reflect pop culture back to us, and antisemitic notions about Jewish people being materialistic and greedy are still alive in our pop culture. 

As a result Jewish owners who are greedy or otherwise just bad for whatever reason get attacked disproportionately. Jewish team owners who don’t fit that narrative are just ignored. 

 

This goes beyond just the Marlins (you could do a study in how the media treats Jeff Vinik compared to Stan Kroenke despite the fact that both tend to put their own money into their projects and are interested in revitalizing their teams’ communities) but the Marlins provide a convenient internalized example. 

 

And to make this clear. I’m not saying you or anyone else in this thread is antisemitic. 

I’m just pointing out how a lot of bigoted attitudes get echoed in the media and how a lot of us go along with it without realizing what’s happening.  

So if I said that I had no clue that any of these gentlemen were or were not Jewish, would that change any of your thinking even a little bit?  Because I didn't.

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