Stadium/Arena Saga Omnibus

[LMU]

Pot stirring from the LA Times.

 

 

[SFGiants58]

Well, it was the Anaheim Angels who won it all in 2002. The LA Angels have either been a young expansion team or an occasional playoff contender.

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

3 hours ago, LMU said:

Pot stirring from the LA Times.

 

And pot-covering from one of the commenters to that article: "The Rams played in that exact stadium for many many years and were called the LA Rams. No one complained. Now the Rams will play in Inglewood, NOT L.A. and will still be called LA Rams. Nothing to see here, move along."

The idea that a team needs to play within the city limits or within the same county (or any variation of that argument) needs to be categorically and permanently retired. Of course urban stadiums are preferable to suburban ones.  And occasionally a team will make being within the city limits a priority, as NYCFC have done. But the important general point is that a major city has a sphere of influence extending far in every direction. This sphere of influence covers many smaller cities, including smaller cities that do not think of themselves as suburbs of the major city, and even those that define themselves against the major city.  A team located anywhere within this zone may rightfully identify by the name of the major city. 

 

[McCall]

The Atlanta Braves play in Cobb County.

The San Francisco 49ers play in Santa Clara.

The New York Giants and Jets play in New Jersey, for crying out loud.

 

The Los Angeles Angels may be the least "disingeuous" of any team who plays outside the city/state limits of the region they're named for.

[LMU]

19 minutes ago, McCall said:

The Atlanta Braves play in Cobb County.

The San Francisco 49ers play in Santa Clara.

The New York Giants and Jets play in New Jersey, for crying out loud.

 

The Los Angeles Angels may be the least "disingeuous" of any team who plays outside the city/state limits of the region they're named for.

The issue is that they don’t own it. You go to their stadium and the words “Los Angeles” are nowhere to be found or heard. The box score just had the Å instead of LAA, there’s no merchandise with Los Angeles, etc. as far as the team’s concerned they only market as “Angels Baseball” without having any sort of connection to Los Angeles or even Anaheim at this stage other than having Ducks or college nights for UCI, LBSU, or CSUF.

[Red Wolf]

The outrage at the Angels using Los Angeles is because they previously used a more specific geographic identifier. If they had used Los Angeles the entire time, this never would have been an issue, similar to the previous examples listed.

[goalieboy82]

2 hours ago, Red Wolf said:

The outrage at the Angels using Los Angeles is because they previously used a more specific geographic identifier. If they had used Los Angeles the entire time, this never would have been an issue, similar to the previous examples listed.

should have stayed this:

[monkeypower]

3 hours ago, Red Wolf said:

The outrage at the Angels using Los Angeles is because they previously used a more specific geographic identifier. If they had used Los Angeles the entire time, this never would have been an issue, similar to the previous examples listed.

 

That and there's another team in the same city, with an arena located across the street from the baseball stadium, that uses the city name and has only ever used the city name.

 

It's not a perfect comparison between the Angels and the Jets/Giants, Braves and 49ers because those teams are playing in essentially suburbs of those cities and have only ever used the big city names. Plus I feel Anaheim has more clout and recognizability than say the Cobb County Braves or the Santa Clara 49ers (I do think New Jersey Jets/Giants could have worked if either went that way).

 

It's also a bit disingenuous to compare the Angels of today to the Rams of yesteryear. No team had used Anaheim yet at that time so there wasn't the precedent for it, with the California Angels and the Los Angeles Rams playing in the same stadium at the same time. I posted on the boards before about an old article the Ducks dug out of the archives for their 25th anniversary this past season discussing what the name of the team would be. The Anaheim mayor at the time was interviewed and said he preferred the hockey team to use Anaheim because neither the Angels nor the Rams did. An Angels spokesperson was interviewed in the same article saying Anaheim was too small of a place to use as the geographic identifier and other comments that really implied there had been discussions within the Angels organization at some point in the pre-1992 past about using Anaheim.

 

@LMU and the article are correct about the LA Angels being disingenuous because they don't own it, there is a concerted effort to only calling them "Angels" or "Angels Baseball". There is no reference to LA in the stadium at all, heck the PA annoucer only refers to them as "Angels" when introducing the starting lineup. You can buy merchandise that says Atlanta Braves, New York Jets and San Francisco 49ers. There is absolutely no Angels merchandise that says Los Angeles outside of retro original 1961-1965 Los Angeles Angels stuff. Other merchandise that have the city name and team name for 29 other teams will instead have "Angels Baseball". You aren't going to get a "Los Angeles Angels" shirt for dear old dad for Father's Day.

 

(I really mean this. Go take a look around the MLB shop and all the merchandise that say "[Geographic identifier] [Team name]" will say "Angels Baseball" instead)

[Gothamite]

“Anaheim Angels” only ever appealed to the city officials and those very few Orange County residents who like to kid themselves that they’re not a satellite city of Los Angeles.  They’re well off to be rid of it.

 

If only they had the courage to actually use “Los Angeles” instead of trying to pander to those residents with “Angels baseball”. 

[SFGiants58]

4 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

“Anaheim Angels” only ever appealed to the city officials and those very few Orange County residents who like to kid themselves that they’re not a satellite city of Los Angeles.

 

Nope. Orange County is its own monster, from a sociopolitical perspective. Look at how many Angels fans on here dislike the "Los Angeles-ification" of the team (e.g., @Still MIGHTY). At this point, going full "Los Angeles Angels" would be comparable to the "New York Dodgers." 

 

Do you have a problem with the Anaheim Ducks, or will we get the dreadful argument that hockey and baseball are "too different" to justify the comparison?

[Gothamite]

I’m saying they’re part of the LA metroplex.  Orange County may well have its own vibe, but so does Malibu.  So does Brentwood. So does Santa Monica.  So does does Van Nuys, gods help them.  

 

For many, many years, residents of the OC tried to pretend they were utterly separate, removed, and distinct from LA.  When I lived there, that was fueled in no small part by their relative demographics.  But even though that cause is largely a thing of the past, it doesn’t make their pretense any more true. 

[SFGiants58]

1 minute ago, Gothamite said:

I’m saying they’re part of the LA metroplex.  Orange County may well have its own vibe, but so does Malibu.  So does Brentwood. So does Santa Monica.  So does does Van Nuys, gods help them.  

 

Eh, I'd say that's it's a more distinct difference. The Orange Curtain is a very real phenomenon.

 

 

1 minute ago, Gothamite said:

For many, many years, residents of the OC tried to pretend they were utterly separate, removed, and distinct from LA.  But that just ain’t so.

 

I would argue that it is. It's more different than Brooklyn is from Manhattan. Besides, what was the name of the team that won it all in 2002?

 

 

Los Angeles outside of Orange Country doesn't want the Angels, so why should they act otherwise? They're Orange County's team, in the same way that the A's are Oakland's team or the Dodgers were Brooklyn's team. 

[GDAWG]

8 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

 

Eh, I'd say that's it's a more distinct difference. The Orange Curtain is a very real phenomenon.

 

 

 

I would argue that it is. It's more different than Brooklyn is from Manhattan. Besides, what was the name of the team that won it all in 2002?

 

 

Los Angeles outside of Orange Country doesn't want the Angels, so why should they act otherwise? They're Orange County's team, in the same way that the A's are Oakland's team or the Dodgers were Brooklyn's team. 

 

For now.

[Gothamite]

1 hour ago, SFGiants58 said:

Eh, I'd say that's it's a more distinct difference. The Orange Curtain is a very real phenomenon.

 

 

You’re providing me more ammunition that Anaheim is a suburb, there.

 

And as OC (mercifully) browns, it’s also becoming less conservative.  I would say it might also be becoming less distinct, since so much of its self-image was tied up in whiteness.

 

Quote

I would argue that it is. It's more different than Brooklyn is from Manhattan.

 

In what way?  That river is a pretty big gulf.  

 

Besides, the more diverse Orange County gets, the more it resembles the extension of Greater Los Angeles that it is.  That narrow identify is crumbling. 

 

Quote

Besides, what was the name of the team that won it all in 2002?

 

 

Los Angeles outside of Orange Country doesn't want the Angels, so why should they act otherwise? They're Orange County's team, in the same way that the A's are Oakland's team or the Dodgers were Brooklyn's team. 

 

Because Anaheim on its own isn’t big enough.  Advertisers and sponsors and broadcasters were willing to pay more for a “Los Angeles” team than an “Anaheim” team.   There are some rare smaller municipalities that have enough cache to sell to outsiders: Brooklyn, Hollywood.  But Anaheim was only selling to Anaheim, and that wasn’t enough.  

[SFGiants58]

2 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

You’re providing me more ammunition that Anaheim is a suburb, there.

 

And as OC (mercifully) browns, it’s also becoming less conservative.  I would say it might also be becoming less distinct, since so much of its self-image was tied up in whiteness.

 

I agree, that’s a good development.

 

2 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

In what way?  That river is a pretty big gulf.  

 

I get the distinction, especially when analyzing parallel development as opposed to one developing after the other due to post-WWII social trends.

 

2 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

Because Anaheim on its own isn’t big enough.  Advertisers and sponsors and broadcasters were willing to pay more for a “Los Angeles” team than an “Anaheim” team.   There are some rare smaller municipalities that have enough cache to sell to outsiders: Brooklyn, Hollywood.  But Anaheim was only selling to Anaheim, and that wasn’t enough.  

 

The Ducks have never had this problem. Try saying “Los Angeles Ducks” to a Ducks fan and see how they react. It’s not that different for baseball. Once they made the effort to focus on Anaheim, they gained the potential to alienate a significant portion of their fanbase. @Still MIGHTY knows more about this than I do, but embracing “Los Angeles” would be incredibly alienating.

[Gothamite]

I don’t know much about hockey, I’ll admit it.  Except that I do know hockey is somewhat less dependent upon ticket sales than baseball is; baseball still draws a significant percentage of its revenue from attendance, which may be easier when you’re talking about a couple extra millions of fans over twice as many games. 

 

And yeah, I get that a lot of Anaheimers still don’t like to think of themselves as extended Angelinos.   

 

 

 

[Brian in Boston]

1 hour ago, Gothamite said:

I’m saying they’re part of the LA metroplex.  Orange County may well have its own vibe, but so does Malibu.  So does Brentwood. So does Santa Monica.  So does does Van Nuys, gods help them.  

Anaheim is an independent municipality in Orange County that ranges anywhere from 2-1/2 to 27 times as populous as the City of Los Angeles neighborhoods (Brentwood and Van Nuys) and LA County independent cities (Malibu and Santa Monica) that you lump it in with here. Anaheim ranges anywhere from 2-1/2 times to 6 times as large in total land area as the neighborhoods and cities you cite.

Look, Anaheim may not be New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, or Phoenix, but it isn't Malibu, Brentwood, Santa Monica, or Van Nuys, either.

 

Hell, if we're all in on naming Anaheim's MLB team the Los Angeles Angels, why not dub Oakland's MLB team the San Francisco A's? After all, San Francisco's more populous than Oakland, it's the Bay Area municipality with the higher profile, and the Athletics' ballpark is closer to downtown San Francisco than the Angels' is to downtown Los Angeles.      

 

[Gothamite]

36 minutes ago, Brian in Boston said:

Look, Anaheim may not be New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, or Phoenix, but it isn't Malibu, Brentwood, Santa Monica, or Van Nuys, either.

 

Sure it is.   A smaller city orbiting a larger one.

 

When the central city is as large as LA or New York, the satellite cities get larger too.  Doesn’t change the fact that Anaheim is well within the LA metroplex.  If it wasn’t so close to LA, Anaheim would be Bakersfield.

 

[DG_YouKnowWhatThatMeans]

Remind me why they're not the California Angels anymore? That was pretty great while it lasted.

[LMU]

Just now, DG_Now said:

Remind me why they're not the California Angels anymore? That was pretty great while it lasted.

I'm assuming this is rhetorical but if not, city officials wanted some PR thrown in with their check to Mickey Mouse, Inc. to tear down the Rams seats and add in extra rocks from the Big Thunder Mountain Railroad.

 

52 minutes ago, Brian in Boston said:

Look, Anaheim may not be New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Houston, or Phoenix, but it isn't Malibu, Brentwood, Santa Monica, or Van Nuys, either.

And Anaheim definitely isn't Long Beach.

 

I'll also throw this in... I had an ex about 10 years ago from Costa Mesa.  Her first time in my area (Torrance/Redondo Beach) she made the comment that it looked exactly like Orange County despite being 30 miles and a county line over.  Adds some argument to the argument that it's o