MLB Stadium Saga: Oakland/Tampa Bay/Southside

[McCall]

Sounds like MLB should buy out Loria, dump the Marlins, and move the Rays organization to Miami. We all win that way, yeah?

Who you going to add as team #30 then? Same issue basically. Your just looking to move a lesser team instead of a more successful, well-ran franchise.

[The_Admiral]

I don't understand why Montreal keeps being mentioned. Not just because it failed once (because as many have stated there were a Lot of factors in play there) but if it never had a ML team, NOBODY would me mentioning it now.

But this is a strange sort of hypothetical situation to me because it's unlikely that there wouldn't have been a team placed in Montreal through all those years when it had a long tradition of baseball support and was the largest and most important city in Canada. Baseball doesn't have "small markets" the way the NBA and NHL do, or anything close to the Packers situation. It's like "what if Pittsburgh never had a team?" Well, why wouldn't it have? What am I supposed to do with that?

But you're right that it's dead, and shame on the Parti Quebecois and Jeff Loria for killing it.

[BBTV]

Pittsburgh is a good example. In 2013, If it didn't have an NFL or an MLB team, it probably wouldn't be on anyone's radar to get one (it's right in the NHL wheelhouse though.) If the Pirates had moved after last season, then I'm sure Pittsburgh would be a candidate for the Rays or A's. Without the Pirates, I doubt they're in the discussion. Same could be said of several cities that have major league teams.

As a result of typing this post, I'm proposing that Oakland and Tampa Bay merge and become the RA's.

[C's]

Outside of maybe Montreal there aren't any good new places to put teams that have a chance to succeed and not just be revenue sharing sponges. If you're gonna do a 3rd NY team at least put them in the city, not in :censored:ing Jersey.

Really, contract both existing Florida franchises and put expansion teams in their place. The Marlins are poison and exist only so that toad running the operation can cash revenue sharing checks from MLB (and they're basically an expansion team already), and the Rays are locked into Tropicana/Hell for god knows how long. Wipe out the two unfixable problems you have (Loria and his unsalvagable brand, and Tropicana) and start anew in Miami and Orlando this time. Miami so you don't leave that ballpark vacant, which would blow any future stadium aspirations for other teams sky high, Orlando because Tampa's not a good sports market, but the Rays' ratings from the area as a whole were solid I believe. Not bad enough to justify completely ditching them anyway.

Contract teams only to immediately replace them with teams in the exact or nearby locations.

... I'll give you a minute to realize the absurdity of this idea.

Tampa Bay's ONLY problems are fanbase and stadium issues. Everything about the organization is very well ran and contracting them makes no sense. Why would you want to take the team out of the hands of people who are making it a success? Why would you need to contract a team to relocate it when you can just relocate it?

The Marlins are poorly ran, but contracting them too is unnecessary if you're going to place one right back there. You have an established franchise. You work on either getting present ownership to improve the state of the franchise or work on getting them replaced, which is difficult, but honestly contraction is even more so.

Seems you have no clue as to how sports franchises and leagues work.

Tampa's ONLY problems are fanbase and stadium issues? Yeah, how nitpicky of me to not overlook such unimportant things to a franchise.

Where the hell are you gonna relocate the Rays? Charlotte? Awful sports market (unless you're nascar) and I'm pretty sure they don't even have a stadium. Yeah, sounds like a plan. Portland? No stadium, public funds are too tapped out to build one, just about everyone there with an interest in MLB is a Mariners fan. Montreal? No stadium, questionable fan support. NYC Metro/Jersey? No stadium, a location in Jersey would be ill-advised if you're counting on drawing from the metro area (because this isn't football), questionable fan support considering it's been 50 plus years since NY had 3 teams, 50 years since the Mets came into the picture, and just about all of the area's baseball allegiances have been established and they'll have little reason to jump ship on their current team.

And in case you're not up to date, the Rays are chained to Tropicana until the late 2020s. Tampa-St. Pete won't negotiate a new stadium anywhere and won't let them out of their lease. I don't care how well they're playing, the Rays cannot succeed at Tropicana (success as a franchise goes beyond posting 90 win seasons every year, you know). Everything from the facility itself, to the infrastructure, to the location, to the market as a whole is utter crap. They're the least valuable franchise in baseball. A replacement team in Orlando would well off the ground by the time the Rays rid themselves of Tropicana.

"Work on getting ownership to improve the state of the franchise?" Is this a joke? Do you even know who Jeffrey Loria is? Christ almighty. I suppose you think Gary Bettman should keep "working with" Glendale, too. Between Loria, his cronies, stadiumgate, all those firesales, the Ozzie-Castro thing, and the expansion team they're currently fielding two years into their new ballpark, the Marlins are a snakebitten brand and couldn't do a better job of turning off Miami if they tried. MLB won't be able to strongarm Loria into selling, because the owners are a bunch of terrified goobers who won't dare vote against Loria in case he ends up getting to keep the team anyway and they have egg on their face. So then what are you left with. It's just as well that baseball cuts their losses and puts a new team in that stadium (which is owned by Miami-Dade, not by Loria).

Accuse me of not knowing how anything works all you want, but tell me, which one of us is in here bawling about how team x shouldn't be contracted all because they're winning games, like a clueless 12 year old squeaker? Hint - it's not me.

[cmm]

Outside of maybe Montreal there aren't any good new places to put teams that have a chance to succeed and not just be revenue sharing sponges. If you're gonna do a 3rd NY team at least put them in the city, not in :censored:ing Jersey.

Really, contract both existing Florida franchises and put expansion teams in their place. The Marlins are poison and exist only so that toad running the operation can cash revenue sharing checks from MLB (and they're basically an expansion team already), and the Rays are locked into Tropicana/Hell for god knows how long. Wipe out the two unfixable problems you have (Loria and his unsalvagable brand, and Tropicana) and start anew in Miami and Orlando this time. Miami so you don't leave that ballpark vacant, which would blow any future stadium aspirations for other teams sky high, Orlando because Tampa's not a good sports market, but the Rays' ratings from the area as a whole were solid I believe. Not bad enough to justify completely ditching them anyway.

Contract teams only to immediately replace them with teams in the exact or nearby locations.

... I'll give you a minute to realize the absurdity of this idea.

Tampa Bay's ONLY problems are fanbase and stadium issues. Everything about the organization is very well ran and contracting them makes no sense. Why would you want to take the team out of the hands of people who are making it a success? Why would you need to contract a team to relocate it when you can just relocate it?

The Marlins are poorly ran, but contracting them too is unnecessary if you're going to place one right back there. You have an established franchise. You work on either getting present ownership to improve the state of the franchise or work on getting them replaced, which is difficult, but honestly contraction is even more so.

Seems you have no clue as to how sports franchises and leagues work.

Tampa's ONLY problems are fanbase and stadium issues? Yeah, how nitpicky of me to not overlook such unimportant things to a franchise.

Where the hell are you gonna relocate the Rays? Charlotte? Awful sports market (unless you're nascar) and I'm pretty sure they don't even have a stadium. Yeah, sounds like a plan. Portland? No stadium, public funds are too tapped out to build one, just about everyone there with an interest in MLB is a Mariners fan. Montreal? No stadium, questionable fan support. NYC Metro/Jersey? No stadium, a location in Jersey would be ill-advised if you're counting on drawing from the metro area (because this isn't football), questionable fan support considering it's been 50 plus years since NY had 3 teams, 50 years since the Mets came into the picture, and just about all of the area's baseball allegiances have been established and they'll have little reason to jump ship on their current team.

And in case you're not up to date, the Rays are chained to Tropicana until the late 2020s. Tampa-St. Pete won't negotiate a new stadium anywhere and won't let them out of their lease. I don't care how well they're playing, the Rays cannot succeed at Tropicana (success as a franchise goes beyond posting 90 win seasons every year, you know). Everything from the facility itself, to the infrastructure, to the location, to the market as a whole is utter crap. They're the least valuable franchise in baseball. A replacement team in Orlando would well off the ground by the time the Rays rid themselves of Tropicana.

"Work on getting ownership to improve the state of the franchise?" Is this a joke? Do you even know who Jeffrey Loria is? Christ almighty. I suppose you think Gary Bettman should keep "working with" Glendale, too. Between Loria, his cronies, stadiumgate, all those firesales, the Ozzie-Castro thing, and the expansion team they're currently fielding two years into their new ballpark, the Marlins are a snakebitten brand and couldn't do a better job of turning off Miami if they tried. MLB won't be able to strongarm Loria into selling, because the owners are a bunch of terrified goobers who won't dare vote against Loria in case he ends up getting to keep the team anyway and they have egg on their face. So then what are you left with. It's just as well that baseball cuts their losses and puts a new team in that stadium (which is owned by Miami-Dade, not by Loria).

Accuse me of not knowing how anything works all you want, but tell me, which one of us is in here bawling about how team x shouldn't be contracted all because they're winning games, like a clueless 12 year old squeaker? Hint - it's not me.

His point was that the players/coaches/front-office staff/etc. are all good at producing strong teams. So why would you contract the team and replace them with a new expansion team?

And if they have a lease with St. Pete to play at the Trop for the next 20 years, that could make contracting them just as hard as relocating them. A court ruled that the Twins had to honor their lease at the Metrodome and couldn't be contracted back in 2002.

[The_Admiral]

C's cuts promos on people here like it's Usenet. I half-expect the lines he's fisking to have

>

>

>

down the side.

[Gothamite]

A move to the New York City area would be a disaster

Depends where they put them. Long Island? Disaster. The Bronx? Disaster. Brooklyn? They become a top-5 team in attendance and merchandise sales.

It's not going to happen, but that one would be an easy home run. And the renamed Rays would finally have a market worthy of them.

[The_Admiral]

Move Dodgers to Brooklyn, move Rays to Los Angeles because the sun there has rays, move a bullet to my head

[C's]

nevermind

[C's]

His point was that the players/coaches/front-office staff/etc. are all good at producing strong teams. So why would you contract the team and replace them with a new expansion team?

Because they're a bombed business venture in an untenable situation that does nothing but sponge revenue sharing from the rest of the league. They're the Diet Marlins in that regard.

One idea for softening the blow for all those hardcore central (and southern) Florida baseball fans is allowing the new Florida teams to claim x amount of players from the franchises they'd technically be replacing. The logistics of that would be a bitch to figure out though, since a) there's probably a collusion complaint in there somewhere, and I'm not sure Orlando has a MLB-ready stadium, so that would mean letting the Rays exist as a blatant lame duck for 2-3 years prior.

I mean I guess we could also contract/relocate the Rays and just leave central Florida barren, if they're that loathe to a new expansion team.

And if they have a lease with St. Pete to play at the Trop for the next 20 years, that could make contracting them just as hard as relocating them. A court ruled that the Twins had to honor their lease at the Metrodome and couldn't be contracted back in 2002.

Fair point, although any course of action here is bound to be covered in red tape and legal sludge. My idea's just a little more out there than the others. If I somehow had a stake in this, the prospect of central Florida done right would be a hell of a lot more appealing to me than letting the Rays continue as they are or moving them to one of other places.

[McCall]

If you placed te Rays organization, as they are, in a new or serviceable stadium in a good market, you'd immediately have one of the top franchises in baseball. While the stadium and fanbase problems are big issues, they are out of te team's control. They have done everything in their power to be successful. So why would you rather take a new expansion team starting from scratch over an already established and very good team that just needs a new home?

It's called logic.

[Lights Out]

I don't understand why Montreal keeps being mentioned. Not just because it failed once (because as many have stated there were a Lot of factors in play there) but if it never had a ML team, NOBODY would me mentioning it now. It's just nostalgia and love if the old elb logo, IMO.

It's not just Expos nostalgia. Montreal has a rich baseball history that predates the Expos. It's a great market that wasn't given a fair chance by the league the first time around and deserves another try with a real franchise.

[IceCap]

It *was* a great market. Demographics have changed since the Montreal Royals and Expos were popular.

[Lights Out]

It *was* a great market. Demographics have changed since the Montreal Royals and Expos were popular.

That doesn't mean a new Expos team couldn't attract fans, especially if it's the already-competent Rays moving there.

And where else are the Rays going to get a better fanbase? Charlotte? Not unless they become a NASCAR team. New York? Not with the Yankees and Mets firmly entrenched. Tampa? All that would happen there is that the "fans" would find another excuse to not show up to games that don't involve the Yankees or Red Sox.

[OnWis97]

His point was that the players/coaches/front-office staff/etc. are all good at producing strong teams. So why would you contract the team and replace them with a new expansion team?

Because they're a bombed business venture in an untenable situation that does nothing but sponge revenue sharing from the rest of the league. They're the Diet Marlins in that regard.

One idea for softening the blow for all those hardcore central (and southern) Florida baseball fans is allowing the new Florida teams to claim x amount of players from the franchises they'd technically be replacing. The logistics of that would be a bitch to figure out though, since a) there's probably a collusion complaint in there somewhere, and I'm not sure Orlando has a MLB-ready stadium, so that would mean letting the Rays exist as a blatant lame duck for 2-3 years prior.

I mean I guess we could also contract/relocate the Rays and just leave central Florida barren, if they're that loathe to a new expansion team.

And if they have a lease with St. Pete to play at the Trop for the next 20 years, that could make contracting them just as hard as relocating them. A court ruled that the Twins had to honor their lease at the Metrodome and couldn't be contracted back in 2002.

Fair point, although any course of action here is bound to be covered in red tape and legal sludge. My idea's just a little more out there than the others. If I somehow had a stake in this, the prospect of central Florida done right would be a hell of a lot more appealing to me than letting the Rays continue as they are or moving them to one of other places.

The 2002 decision was 1) a Minnesota Court and 2) a complete joke. The judge in his opinion actually discussed the excitement of fans waiving the homer hankeys and cheering for Kirby Puckett. The Twins and Expos should have been contracted (if, in fact, MLB was serious about it).

Anyway, I have no idea whether the Rays could get out of the lease (Though it was a reason the Twins, rather than the Rays, were targeted for contraction), but the Twins decision does not have much bearing.

[rams80]

It *was* a great market. Demographics have changed since the Montreal Royals and Expos were popular.

That doesn't mean a new Expos team couldn't attract fans, especially if it's the already-competent Rays moving there.

And where else are the Rays going to get a better fanbase? Charlotte? Not unless they become a NASCAR team. New York? Not with the Yankees and Mets firmly entrenched. Tampa? All that would happen there is that the "fans" would find another excuse to not show up to games that don't involve the Yankees or Red Sox.

From what I've gathered on here the French don't like baseball and can't be convinced to like it in numbers that would make the team viable.

[tigerslionspistonshabs]

I went to Montreal for the first time this past summer and fell in love with the city. Beautiful downtown, all types of people, a large corporate presence.

While yes it's true that even the second coming of Christ would play second fiddle to the Habs, a baseball team would have very minimal direct competition with them.

A well placed downtown stadium close to the Bell Centre, where Labatt Park was proposed could work very well. A lot of foot traffic, you can get downtown from anywhere in the city in half an hour or less due to a very efficient public transit system.

I was there in July and the city was absolutely booming. Anywhere you looked at any point of the day or night, there's something going on and there are hoards of people walking around.

There is a huge diversity in age, culture, interests.

It's really tough to call it. The Expos yearly attendance was very sporatic. They were drawing 28,000 fans in the early-mid 80s, and then it varied from 8,000-22,000 until the axe swung.

I think at this point, it still may be a bit risky.

Has anyone mentioned Vancouver? I think it may be worth a look.

- Population of 2.3M.

- Not much direct competition other than the spring/fall hockey/baseball lap-over

- BC Lions on the odd Sunday in late summer/early fall and then the Whitecaps

- It's very much a sports town (so much so that they riot when their team loses ) and very diverse in every way

- it has the highest net worth of any city in Canada, meaning a lot of disposable income

- Massive media production centre (2nd in North America outside L.A.)

It all weighs on whether BC Place could host baseball. It's just been renovated, including the addition of a retractable roof and pretty much new everything else. The place is state-of-the-art. It's mixed on whether it can be properly utilized for baseball however.

Other than that, I mentioned Portland but there seems to be hiccups there as people have said.

I might take some flak for this, but what about Norfolk/Virginia Beach? It's always flirted with whenever relocation comes up in any league. The Kings looked at it last year, Grizzlies and Hornets in 2001-02, the Expos in 03. It's got a metro pop of nearly 2 mill and growing, with no other major league team.

Obviously there would need to be a solid plan on a stadium, but who knows?

[dfwabel]

What about Memphis or NOLA?

Isn't the Memphis metro area about half the size of their existing one in Tampa? And NOLA is even smaller.

Memphis is about to be on the hook for Autozone Park since the Redbirds team is being bought by its parent club, the Cardinals. They do not want the stadium, so the community owners are trying to sell the facility to the city.

Also, Memphis is putting more money into the Pyramid for the Bass Pro Shop project, so in essence they are paying for the Pyramid for the fourth time.

[IceCap]

It *was* a great market. Demographics have changed since the Montreal Royals and Expos were popular.

That doesn't mean a new Expos team couldn't attract fans, especially if it's the already-competent Rays moving there.

And where else are the Rays going to get a better fanbase? Charlotte? Not unless they become a NASCAR team. New York? Not with the Yankees and Mets firmly entrenched. Tampa? All that would happen there is that the "fans" would find another excuse to not show up to games that don't involve the Yankees or Red Sox.

From what I've gathered on here the French don't like baseball and can't be convinced to like it in numbers that would make the team viable.

Kind of this. The old Royals were primarily supported by Montreal's English population, and that same population made up the majority of the Expos' fanbase. The vast majority of these people are now in Toronto, having left after Bill 101 was passed in 1977. So the vast majority of Expos fans are either no longer watching baseball or they've jumped on the Jays' bandwagon with their southern Ontario born and raised kids. It's no coincidence that the Expos really started to have problems once the English population left.

You have a rump Anglophone population left in the city, and there are diehard French fans to be sure. Neither exists in large enough numbers to support a MLB team, however.

Plus there's no money or will to build a stadium anyway. So...yeah. Montreal's not a viable market like it was 50 years ago.

[Funky Bunky]

I went to Montreal for the first time this past summer and fell in love with the city. Beautiful downtown, all types of people, a large corporate presence.

While yes it's true that even the second coming of Christ would play second fiddle to the Habs, a baseball team would have very minimal direct competition with them.

A well placed downtown stadium close to the Bell Centre, where Labatt Park was proposed could work very well. A lot of foot traffic, you can get downtown from anywhere in the city in half an hour or less due to a very efficient public transit system.

I was there in July and the city was absolutely booming. Anywhere you looked at any point of the day or night, there's something going on and there are hoards of people walking around.

There is a huge diversity in age, culture, interests.

It's really tough to call it. The Expos yearly attendance was very sporatic. They were drawing 28,000 fans in the early-mid 80s, and then it varied from 8,000-22,000 until the axe swung.

I think at this point, it still may be a bit risky.

Has anyone mentioned Vancouver? I think it may be worth a look.

- Population of 2.3M.

- Not much direct competition other than the spring/fall hockey/baseball lap-over

- BC Lions on the odd Sunday in late summer/early fall and then the Whitecaps

- It's very much a sports town (so much so that they riot when their team loses ) and very diverse in every way

- it has the highest net worth of any city in Canada, meaning a lot of disposable income

- Massive media production centre (2nd in North America outside L.A.)

It all weighs on whether BC Place could host baseball. It's just been renovated, including the addition of a retractable roof and pretty much new everything else. The place is state-of-the-art. It's mixed on whether it can be properly utilized for baseball however.

Other than that, I mentioned Portland but there seems to be hiccups there as people have said.

I might take some flak for this, but what about Norfolk/Virginia Beach? It's always flirted with whenever relocation comes up in any league. The Kings looked at it last year, Grizzlies and Hornets in 2001-02, the Expos in 03. It's got a metro pop of nearly 2 mill and growing, with no other major league team.

Obviously there would need to be a solid plan on a stadium, but who knows?

I don't think BC Place would work for baseball. They'd have to remove the big scoreboard hanging from the ceiling, and they would have to reconfigure the seating, and it will just be weird.

If Vancouver ever wanted an MLB team, they'd have to build a stadium.