MLB Stadium Saga: Oakland/Tampa Bay/Southside

[TBGKon]

13 hours ago, Burmy said:

At least the plan there would've seen the A's play at Oracle Park for a couple years while the new park was being built...where would the Rays' temporary home be if this happens?

There's room in the parking lot around the Trop to build a new stadium.  If necessary, i could see them extending the lease another year if necessary.  if they can get things rolling in 2024 theres still plenty of time to have a new ballpark ready for opening day 2028.

[LMU]

Everyone forgets that Montreal had three huge issues that killed the Expos outside of the market.

 

1. Olympic Stadium was a pit from the moment it opened in a bad location.

 

2. The fanbase never forgave the league for the 94 strike killing the Expos’ best season in team history.

 

3. Jeffrey Loria.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

28 minutes ago, LMU said:

Jeffrey Loria.

 

Jeffrey Loria actively nuked the Expos. That was a proud franchise that deserved better.

[FiddySicks]

He basically did the same thing with the Marlins, more specifically the city of Miami, too. 
 

Actually the Loria mess has some parallels to the A’s current situation. He couldn’t get the public funding from the city of Montreal, so he just found an even bigger dope in the city of Miami to give him that money. Fisher couldn’t get the money from the city of Oakland, but he found it with Phoenix’s even dopier baby brother. 

[tigerslionspistonshabs]

52 minutes ago, LMU said:

 

 

1. Olympic Stadium was a pit from the moment it opened in a bad location.

 

 

Absolutely. They almost would've been better off renovating/expanding Jarry Park. 

[GDAWG]

There are people locally who want Joe Lacob to buy the A's if Fisher sells.  

[WestCoastBias]

I would love to see Fisher somehow blow this Las Vegas deal and be forced to sell the team. 

 

It seems like a pretty aggressive deadline to try to get $500 million from a state government, especially when there is no guarantee Fisher will actually invest in the team on the field once he gets there. Let's remember this guy has been trying to get a ballpark built for the last 20 years in multiple municipalities and hasn't been able to get it done, and yes not all the blame goes to Fisher but he is the one constant in every negotiation. Joe Lacob, please have your checkbook ready just in case. 

[gosioux76]

8 hours ago, WestCoastBias said:

It seems like a pretty aggressive deadline to try to get $500 million from a state government, especially when there is no guarantee Fisher will actually invest in the team on the field once he gets there. 

 

I don't disagree, but I also think it's helpful to point out here that the A's aren't seeking a straight cash handout from Nevada. The deal is for the state to sell $500M in government bonds, which the team would repay over time from taxes and other revenue tied to the stadium project.

 

So essentially, it's the government using its bonding power to issue the team a loan. 

 

It's risky, considering this is the government putting its credit on the line, but it's far less politically complicated than a direct investment of taxpayer funds

[MJWalker45]

On 4/20/2023 at 7:45 PM, OnWis97 said:

If they get out of Oakland before the Vegas stadium is read, where would they play? I would not think it would be in an outdoor minor-league ballpark in the desert.

What are the chances of them being able to use Allegiant until their stadium is ready? I know the Raiders wouldn't want too many visitors in their new house, but for a one to two year stint it could be useful. 

On 4/21/2023 at 2:14 PM, WestCoastBias said:

 

And not only is Vegas getting the A's but everyone seems content with the Aviators remaining there as well.

 

The area is home to only 2.5 million people, they have NHL, NFL, WNBA, and now MLB. In what world do they need a Triple-A team?? The Aviators play 20 minutes (11 miles) from the property the A's just purchased, I mean c'mon it's just unnecessary.

Would the Aviators really be able to stay though if a MLB team is in the same city? How many of those fans are ditching them for a better class of baseball? Money talks too, and they'll keep the ones that don't want to overpay for the A's, but I think a majority of the fans would switch to the shiny new thing. 

 

On 4/21/2023 at 12:51 PM, OnWis97 said:

I figured they'd avoid the current LV minor league park because of the heat.  Perhaps they'll be playing almost no day games after during the hottest times of the year. (June-Aug???)

They could probably come up with some sort of sun tarping to keep the sun off the players and fans, if it doesn't already exist. I'd agree that any outdoor stadium in LV means no day games from June to the end of August at a minimum. 

[kolob]

13 hours ago, who do you think said:

Less than ideal? Sure. A Glendale/Sunrise situation? Not even close.

 

I get that, but you're also comparing apples to oranges, it different when you're comparing 81 home games to 41.  Plus, I do get the point of St. Pete being on a peninsula that hinders attendance. 

 

 

Based off location it seems easy solution would be a move to Tampa, but what REALLY kills the Rays more than anything is their horrible lease.

 

[kolob]

6 minutes ago, MJWalker45 said:

Would the Aviators really be able to stay though if a MLB team is in the same city? How many of those fans are ditching them for a better class of baseball? Money talks too, and they'll keep the ones that don't want to overpay for the A's, but I think a majority of the fans would switch to the shiny new thing. 

 

You talk like it's an either/or on fandom between the A's and Aviators. They can coexist and I think promotes both clubs well, especially watching players go from the minors to majors.  But, there will always be a market for minor league baseball advertising dollars and companies that are priced out with the big leagues.

[WestCoastBias]

10 minutes ago, MJWalker45 said:

What are the chances of them being able to use Allegiant until their stadium is ready? I know the Raiders wouldn't want too many visitors in their new house, but for a one to two year stint it could be useful. 

 

I'm pretty sure Mark Davis hates Fisher and the A's as they did the Raiders no favors when Davis was trying to get a new stadium at the Coliseum site. 

 

And Allegiant is a football only venue too. 

[MJWalker45]

4 minutes ago, kimball said:

 

You talk like it's an either/or on fandom between the A's and Aviators. They can coexist and I think promotes both clubs well, especially watching players go from the minors to majors.  But, there will always be a market for minor league baseball advertising dollars and companies that are priced out with the big leagues.

There's a reason the Baltimore Orioles minor league team moved out of Baltimore when St. Louis moved in. It was because playing that close to a MLB team does not bring you more money, it's because people wanting MLB baseball over the minors will choose to spend most of their money at the big league park. Now it's possible that the A's try to help out there AAA club, but that usually means cutting into their own profits.  

[LMU]

Just now, MJWalker45 said:

There's a reason the Baltimore Orioles minor league team moved out of Baltimore when St. Louis moved in. It was because playing that close to a MLB team does not bring you more money, it's because people wanting MLB baseball over the minors will choose to spend most of their money at the big league park. Now it's possible that the A's try to help out there AAA club, but that usually means cutting into their own profits.  

Hockey has shown that there's a new model where minor league profits are completely ignored in favor of player development needs.   So, there's completely a path forward for the big club to play off the Strip and the minor league still hanging around in Summerlin.

[gosioux76]

12 minutes ago, MJWalker45 said:

There's a reason the Baltimore Orioles minor league team moved out of Baltimore when St. Louis moved in. It was because playing that close to a MLB team does not bring you more money, it's because people wanting MLB baseball over the minors will choose to spend most of their money at the big league park. Now it's possible that the A's try to help out there AAA club, but that usually means cutting into their own profits.  

 

I'm confused by this discussion. It's not like it's unusual for a MLB team to share the same market with their AAA affiliate. This is happening right now in the Twin Cities with the St. Paul Saints and has been the case since at least 1995 with the Mariners and the Tacoma Rainiers. Sugar Land, home to the AAA Skeeters, is in the Houston MSA, which is similar to Atlanta and Gwinnett. 

 

What exactly is the issue? 

[kolob]

14 minutes ago, MJWalker45 said:

There's a reason the Baltimore Orioles minor league team moved out of Baltimore when St. Louis moved in. It was because playing that close to a MLB team does not bring you more money, it's because people wanting MLB baseball over the minors will choose to spend most of their money at the big league park. Now it's possible that the A's try to help out there AAA club, but that usually means cutting into their own profits.  

 

You're comparing situations that are nearly 70 years apart.  As pointed out by @LMU the shift in hockey as well as baseball and basketball is development first. That's why we're seeing AAA clubs like St. Paul, Sugar Land, Gwinnett, Tacoma and Vegas team up with parent clubs in baseball and Vegas, San Jose, Vancouver, Toronto, etc. in hockey.  Development is more important than profit.

 

But, they also wouldn't be doing it if they weren't making a profit. 

[WestCoastBias]

56 minutes ago, gosioux76 said:

 

I'm confused by this discussion. It's not like it's unusual for a MLB team to share the same market with their AAA affiliate. This is happening right now in the Twin Cities with the St. Paul Saints and has been the case since at least 1995 with the Mariners and the Tacoma Rainiers. Sugar Land, home to the AAA Skeeters, is in the Houston MSA, which is similar to Atlanta and Gwinnett. 

 

What exactly is the issue? 

 

- Houston is 5th largest metro area, 7.2 million people.

- Atlanta is the 8th largest metro area, 6.1 million people.

- Tacoma and Seattle are over 30 miles away from each other. Tacoma is also it's own city rather than a suburb, it's port is on par with Seattle in total trade for example. Also, 4 million people in the metro area.

- We all know Twin Cities is kind of a unique situation where Minneapolis and St Paul share the professional teams. The NBA arena is in Minneapolis while the NHL arena is in St Paul, it makes sense that St Paul would support the Triple-A team while the Twins play not too far away. Also, 3.7 million people in the metro area. 

 

I don't consider any of these existing examples relevant to whether the A's and Aviators could coexist 11 miles apart in a market that's only home to 2.3 million people. With the Golden Knights and Silver Knights, at least the Silver Knights are in Henderson which is an actual city (2nd largest in NV) that might have it's own identity to a degree rather than Summerlin which is a master planned community who's downtown is an outlet mall. It could work out fine, but there's nothing wrong with being skeptical about this. 

[gosioux76]

48 minutes ago, WestCoastBias said:

 

- Houston is 5th largest metro area, 7.2 million people.

- Atlanta is the 8th largest metro area, 6.1 million people.

- Tacoma and Seattle are over 30 miles away from each other. Tacoma is also it's own city rather than a suburb, it's port is on par with Seattle in total trade for example. Also, 4 million people in the metro area.

- We all know Twin Cities is kind of a unique situation where Minneapolis and St Paul share the professional teams. The NBA arena is in Minneapolis while the NHL arena is in St Paul, it makes sense that St Paul would support the Triple-A team while the Twins play not too far away. Also, 3.7 million people in the metro area. 

 

I don't consider any of these existing examples relevant to whether the A's and Aviators could coexist 11 miles apart in a market that's only home to 2.3 million people. With the Golden Knights and Silver Knights, at least the Silver Knights are in Henderson which is an actual city (2nd largest in NV) that might have it's own identity to a degree rather than Summerlin which is a master planned community who's downtown is an outlet mall. It could work out fine, but there's nothing wrong with being skeptical about this. 

 

Market size would only be a factor if the primary objectives were revenue and attendance data. But as @kimball pointed out, there are examples now where player development has taken prominence.

 

You dismissed the Twin Cities example because of how the pro teams are divided between two cities, but the primary reason why the Twins wanted the Saints as their AAA affiliate was for the convenience of having its big-league replacements just a short drive away, as opposed to a flight from Rochester, New York. This saves both time and travel costs, while also enabling the big-league coaching staff to continue working with the AAA talent and allowing big-league talent to take rehab assignments in the same market. 

 

And the Saints continue to be a draw not based upon market size, but on the unique identity they've carved out for themselves within the same market as the Twins. I see no reason why the Aviators couldn't do the same, regardless of market size. 

[Ridleylash]

Yeah, like, it seems weird to me to suggest that people in Vegas will completely dump the Aviators in favor of the A's instead of just, y'know...watching both. Suggesting that no fans of the major club would ever also watch a much more affordable product that lets them see their club's prospects in the same market is kinda absurd.
 

There's a reason so many teams have or are going to end up moving their affiliates to be much closer to them.

[TBGKon]

2 hours ago, MJWalker45 said:

There's a reason the Baltimore Orioles minor league team moved out of Baltimore when St. Louis moved in. It was because playing that close to a MLB team does not bring you more money, it's because people wanting MLB baseball over the minors will choose to spend most of their money at the big league park. Now it's possible that the A's try to help out there AAA club, but that usually means cutting into their own profits.  

That was also nearly 70 years ago.  The developmental model in professional baseball is a completely different situation.  Just using the current affiliate system, the following AAA teams are within 150 miles by car (some less than 100)

 

Sugar Land (to Houston)

Worcester (to Boston)

Columbus (to Cleveland)

Scranton Wilkes-Barre (to the Bronx)

Toledo (to Detroit)

Tacoma (to Seattle)

Buffalo (to Toronto)

St Paul (to Minneapolis)

Gwinnett (to Atlanta)

Lehigh Valley (to Philadelphia)

Sacramento (to San Francisco)

 

That's more than a third of the league, not to mention Round Rock and Omaha are just a hair over 150 miles.  If the A's and Aviators sharing the market is bound to happen, it's not like they're the first to do it.