MLB Stadium Saga: Oakland/Tampa Bay/Southside

[The_Admiral]

44 minutes ago, HedleyLamarr said:

The few times I've been there, it's taken us 1.5 hours to go from Clearwater to inside the stadium.  Or, two hours from Kissimmee to Tropicana Field.

 

For people who don't know, Kissimmee is an eastern suburb of Orlando.

 

I've said it before: baseball and bad urban planning don't mix.

[Lights Out]

1 hour ago, HedleyLamarr said:

It's easy to sell out two games when you get the lone Canadian team involved and call it "Expos Nostalgia Weekend".  It's easy for a politician to say "I'd love for baseball to come back" because that's extra money coming to town.  It's easy for the Commissioner to say he'd like to see a city get a team because he doesn't want to alienate any North American market from watching and investing in his product.

 

Montreal's problem is that there's 79 other games they would have to sell.  Montreal's problem is that the government hasn't "walked the walk" when it comes to getting finances involved to get baseball back, both locally and federally.  Montreal's problem is that MLB knows Montreal will always be one of the runts when it comes to eating at the MLB Food Bowl.

 

Their last four seasons had attendances of 7000, 9000, 12000, and 9000.  And two of those seasons were winning seasons.  You would think that if the TV deal stunk, that would give you even more incentive to go catch more games in person, especially if the team is competitive.  But, the fans didn't show up.

 

Montreal is not a good baseball market.  Dispute that as much as you'd like.  Fans didn't show up.  Tampa Bay may be drawing flies, but that's nearly double what Montreal drew.  If you're willing to say that Montreal wasn't given a fair shake, you have to also admit that the Rays have never been in an ideal attendance situation, either.  Can't just pick-and-choose when you use the martyr defense.

You do raise a fair point on the Spring Training games, but still, people show up in droves to watch exhibition games that don't count in a dump of a stadium, just because it's some semblance of major-league baseball in Montreal. I doubt we'd be hearing much talk about Montreal as an expansion market if those games drew poorly.

 

It's true that the Expos had winning seasons in 2002 and 2003. But let's be real, they were only a couple games over .500 in both seasons and didn't make the playoffs. In 2002, it was viewed as a foregone conclusion that the Expos were going to be contracted and they were playing out the string in a lame-duck season. In 2003, the league sabotaged the Expos' chances of making the playoffs by selling off Orlando Cabrera at the deadline and refusing to allow them to make September call-ups. That year was also the beginning of the short-lived San Juan experiment, which sent the message that the team was going to move if it couldn't be contracted. Before that season, the MLB had even floated the idea of pulling the Expos out of Montreal and having them share Fenway with the Red Sox until a buyer could be found - an idea that obviously didn't end up working out.

 

It's not like the Expos were trotting out World Series teams to play in front of empty seats, like what's happened in Miami and Tampa Bay. There isn't a city on Earth that would keep showing up to games under those circumstances.

 

The Rays haven't had it easy, but they haven't had to put up with even a fraction of the bull :censored: that Expos fans did. Since their World Series run in 2008, they've been able to field competitive teams on tiny budgets most years. Their 2008 season didn't get ruined by the players going on strike. They aren't splitting their home games between Tampa and San Juan. The league and the Rays' ownership haven't colluded to destroy the team, nor have the Rays been sold to the league outright. The post-1994 Expos were screwed on a level we may never see again.

 

I'm not saying that Montreal is New York/Boston/Philly/Chicago status. But there have been worse markets with more going for them.

[kroywen]

Montreal does not have the demographics or the corporate base to support a baseball team, at this point. Bill 101 drove most of the Anglophone population away (mostly to Ontario), and with it, most of the corporate base. It's easy to forget, but up until the 70's, Montreal was the leading financial center of Canada, not Toronto. Businesses fled after onerous language restrictions were placed on them by Bill 101, and that was the end of Montreal being Canada's leading city.

 

Baseball is the toughest sport, of the major four, for a market to support a team successfully. 81 home dates - double that of basketball and hockey - and about 40,000 seats to fill - again, double that of basketball or hockey. A team needs to have a large population base with an interest in baseball, and a large corporate base to buy advertisements and luxury seats. On top of that, they need a centrally-located stadium with fairly easy transportation options. Montreal has none of those, at this point. The dwindling Anglophone population was the Expos' base, and the corporate base likely won't support the Expos in the manner required. Building a centrally-located ballpark might be a bit difficult given the historic nature of Montreal's core.

 

There's no prime relocation options sitting out there right now, but I do think baseball's best bet would be a burgeoning market with only one big 4 team located there. Vancouver and Portland are the two that spring to mind - they're both fairly booming cities that are have room to support another pro sports team. I'd be concerned that Charlotte's pro sports dollar might be tapped out between the Panthers and Hornets (and Hurricanes, really), but that would be an option as well.

 

Question is, would a team in Portland or Vancouver be more or less of a risk than trying to resuscitate the Tampa Bay market with a new downtown Tampa ballpark (with a retractable roof, naturally)? Tampa Bay literally has zero track record of success in supporting the Rays, so it becomes a question of whether that's due to the team's circumstances (fixed-roof dome in St. Pete) or inherent structural problems with the market itself. I tend to think it's a combination of both, but I also do think that the underlying fundamentals of the Portland and Vancouver markets are more favorable than that of Tampa Bay.

[goalieboy82]

7 hours ago, HedleyLamarr said:

Rays went to the World Series in 2007, Montreal's last season was 2004.  And the Expos churned out a cool 9,300 fans that season.

 

Montreal had back-to-back winning seasons in 2002 and 2003 and got 22,000 to come out....combined.  Montreal was not a good market then, and they aren't a good market now. Give them two games a year to host the lone Canadian team and a chance to relive their baseball days, they can handle that.  79 more?  Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

it was 2008 when they went (lost to Phillies in 5 games, with game 5 over 2 days)

[BBTV]

16 minutes ago, goalieboy82 said:

it was 2008 when they went (lost to Phillies in 5 games, with game 5 over 2 days)

 

And it was cheaper for Phillies fans to buy tickets (since they weren't even sold out and even second hand wasn't bad) and fly to Tampa to see games then to attend in Philadelphia.

 

I'm not knocking Tampa for not having the same kind of fanbase as more established teams in bigger markets, but not even selling out playoff games (I mean they did sell out, but because visiting fans and scumbags looking for ROI bought the tickets, not Rays STHs) is a bad sign.

[IceCap]

Hedley pointing to attendance to justify keeping baseball out of Montreal is pretty interesting considering he'll die on a hill trying to convince you the NHL could have worked in Atlanta despite the awful attendance. 

[HedleyLamarr]

38 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

he'll die on a hill trying to convince you the NHL could have worked in Atlanta despite the awful attendance. 

The Thrashers had good attendance and turned a profit before Atlanta Spirit took over and started their in-house fighting.  And considering I worked for the team, I'm pretty damn sure I know just a little bit more of the dealings-on than, say, you.

 

Besides, you could be bringing some actual insight to the discussion instead of re-hashing debates from years ago, since you live in Tampa....

[HedleyLamarr]

2 hours ago, Lights Out said:

You do raise a fair point on the Spring Training games, but still, people show up in droves to watch exhibition games that don't count in a dump of a stadium, just because it's some semblance of major-league baseball in Montreal. I doubt we'd be hearing much talk about Montreal as an expansion market if those games drew poorly.

Again, it's a really easy sell for preseason games if you bring in a close-enough team and call it a Nostalgia Game/Weekend/etc.

 

If, say, the Predators and Hurricanes (or really, any two NHL teams) played a preseason game or two back in Philips Arena, a lot of folks within a 2-3 hour driving radius would come see NHL-adjacent hockey in their backyard, including myself.  Doesn't make Atlanta any closer to getting a team.

[The_Admiral]

The best argument for Montreal is that it would give TSN 150+ days of national programming to compete with Sportsnet and the Blue Jays, but that would still be contingent on a new stadium that I don't think they're going to get, and putting ~32,000 people in that stadium for every game, and even when the Expos had better attendance than the Yankees it was when everyone's attendance blew. I love Quebec but I'm not bullish on Montreal baseball. MLB and the goddamn separatists pretty much salted the earth for baseball. So much for the commissioner not wanting to alienate anyone in North America.

[IceCap]

1 hour ago, HedleyLamarr said:

The Thrashers had good attendance and turned a profit before Atlanta Spirit took over and started their in-house fighting.  And considering I worked for the team, I'm pretty damn sure I know just a little bit more of the dealings-on than, say, you.

And the Expos turned a profit and and had good attendence before ownership, the league, and the province started putting the screws to the market.

What's your point? 

 

Quote

Besides, you could be bringing some actual insight to the discussion instead of re-hashing debates from years ago, since you live in Tampa....

Well I think you're wrong about Tropacana Field. It's a dump. I grew up going to Jays games. The Sky Dome's not the most modern and up to date facility in the Majors, but Tropicana Field's a trash heap. It's dim, dirty, and all around depressing. 

 

The crowds are rather sad too. If the crowd's decent? It usually means there's a strong contingent of visiting fans. If the visitors don't have a well-traveling fan base/local fans? The place is a dim, dirty mausoleum.

 

So I totally see why fans don't want to turn out for the games. A new stradium, even one in St. Pete, may very well turn things around. Problem is that a new park is a huge financial risk. What happens if the city and team put up millions and attendence and revenue are still down? 

 

The biggest stumbling block to Montreal's success is the fact that Bill 101 gutted the city's Anglophone population. Which was the backbone of the Expos' fan support. 

Either way Montreal's not working without a new arena, so they're ultimately in the same boat as Tampa/St. Pete.

 

My contribution to the discussion is that Tampa never should have had a team in the first place. Not with the stadium deal that was in place. The (Devil) Rays were doomed from day one.

[HedleyLamarr]

2 hours ago, Ice_Cap said:

Well I think you're wrong about Tropacana Field. It's a dump. I grew up going to Jays games. The Sky Dome's not the most modern and up to date facility in the Majors, but Tropicana Field's a trash heap. It's dim, dirty, and all around depressing. 

 

So I totally see why fans don't want to turn out for the games. A new stradium, even one in St. Pete, may very well turn things around. Problem is that a new park is a huge financial risk. What happens if the city and team put up millions and attendence and revenue are still down?

When did I say Tropicana Field isn't a dump?  I'm pretty sure I mentioned that they've tried to liven up the place, whether it's with lighting or brightening up the concourses or whatever, but it's not an ideal place to see a game.  It's pretty weird for a baseball fan to sit at a ballgame and not see sunlight or see the sun setting while the game is taking place.  The Rays' current management has made some efforts to make the best of a lousy situation, but a Sam's Club with a new paint job doesn't take away from the fact it's still a Sam's Club.

 

I'm sure the Rays have done them, but they need focus groups to determine if they should seek a new ballpark in town, where to build it, etc.  It's not like the Rays current ownership...and maybe even their initial ownership...had a say in where to build the stadium.  I can only go on my experience of attending five games there that I can see why folks wouldn't want to make that time commitment 81 times a year.  Folks don't like sitting in traffic.  That wouldn't be as much of a problem if they built the ballpark closer to their season ticket holders and frequent ticket buyers like the Braves did.  The Braves took a risk by moving out to Cobb, and they've seen a big uptick on mid-week game attendance and a big money boon...with a fan base that's got a reputation of being fairweather.

[IceCap]

35 minutes ago, HedleyLamarr said:

When did I say Tropicana Field isn't a dump? 

 

23 hours ago, HedleyLamarr said:

...and it's really not as bad a place to watch a game as folks make it out to be...

 

No, I'd say it's just as bad as everyone's said it is. Sure they've attempted to spruce it up, but lipstick on a pig and all of that. 

 

Quote

I'm sure the Rays have done them, but they need focus groups to determine if they should seek a new ballpark in town, where to build it, etc.

The problem, as I understand it, is that the city of St. Pete owns Tropacana Field. And the Rays are locked into an ironclad lease until 2027. Keep in mind this was the lease the team signed when the franchise was awarded in 1995. They signed an ironclad deal until 2027. Woof. 

 

Anyway the city of St. Pete can basically dictate terms because the lease is city-friendly. From what I've heard? St. Pete isn't interested in letting the team buy out only to lose them to Tampa. So any deal between the team and St. Pete would be contingent on them staying in St. Pete. 

 

That would solve the stadium problem but not the commute problem. The team's largest pool of potential fans is on Tampa's side of the Bay, and the drive isn't seen as worth it by most of them. 

It's possible more would be willing to make the drive if they didn't have to sit in an unkempt Costco, but it's a risk to bank millions upon millions on that assumption. 

 

Myself? I've mostly gone when the Jays are in town. I like baseball, I don't mind drives, and I actually really like the St. Pete area. So I would make a point to go to more games if the venue were nicer. 

I'm hesitant to say I'm reflective of the Tampa Bay area's larger baseball-loving fanbase though.

[HedleyLamarr]

Perhaps I'm looking at things in a different perspective, then.  Guess I can never take off my Game Operations glasses when I go to a sporting event.  Nor am I letting just the building determine my entertainment quality.

[Wings]

Vincent Naimoli: "We are suing MLB because they wouldn't allow the Giants to move" 

MLB: "Here is an expansion team now shut the hell up"

Vincent Naimoli: OK

[IceCap]

29 minutes ago, HedleyLamarr said:

Perhaps I'm looking at things in a different perspective, then.  Guess I can never take off my Game Operations glasses when I go to a sporting event.  Nor am I letting just the building determine my entertainment quality.

It's not so much about entertainment quality as much as it is having a pleasant place to spend a few hours. 

Again, I grew up going to Jays game. Sky Dome isn't a modern baseball palace by any means. It's advantage over Tropacana Field is that it doesn't actively depress you to sit in it. 

 

Like I said. I don't mind the drive, and I like the area. I'm not even a fan of the team, so the Rays don't even need to be winning. Just give me a baseball stadium to spend an afternoon in that doesn't feel like a dirty Costco and I'm there more often. 

[BBTV]

I went to a game at Tokyo dome last fall.  It was my first dome sports experience and I had a blast.part of it was just that baseball is "different" in Japan. While I enjoyed my first dome experience, I think I would hate watching games there on the reg, in person or on TV.  It was a really fun atmosphere, but can't compete with the true baseball park experience. 

 

I HIGHLY recommend visiting Tokyo dome. It's old but really cool.

[twi]

Long time resident, the Rays' problems are dumpy stadium and worse than horrible location. I'm highly skeptical that they're in movement talks if there's an open air (retractable roof a must) park for them on this side of the bay. For the experience you get, it's just simply not worth it to drive over from this side when you consider the protracted ride over, the late hour of getting back home, and the multitude of other things you could be doing instead. Very few people in this area who think a good way to spend an evening is inside of a warehouse dealing with mooks from New York, Boston, etc. 

 

 

[BeerGuyJordan]

18 hours ago, the admiral said:

I've said it before: baseball and bad urban planning don't mix.

 

That's true of any non-NFL big 4 sport. Football is really the only sport that can get away with their team outside of main metro. In fact, it's probably a preferable tactic, due to the event-like nature, as opposed to the grind of a typical season.

 

The majority of your NBA, MLB, and NHL franchises that are really struggling, play on the outskirts of the metro area, far from the major population center. This is not a coincidence.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

12 minutes ago, BeerGuyJordan said:

 

That's true of any non-NFL big 4 sport. Football is really the only sport that can get away with their team outside of main metro. In fact, it's probably a preferable tactic, due to the event-like nature, as opposed to the grind of a typical season.

 

 

I really don't know how true that is anymore. Have you ever been to FedEx Field from DC? It's a terrible, miserable experience that makes you feel like an :censored: for even bothering.

 

Contrast to CenturyLink, which is at the end of regional and local rail, that it almost feels simple in comparison.

[Sport]

1 hour ago, DG_Now said:

 

I really don't know how true that is anymore. Have you ever been to FedEx Field from DC? It's a terrible, miserable experience that makes you feel like an for even bothering.

 

Contrast to CenturyLink, which is at the end of regional and local rail, that it almost feels simple in comparison.

 

It's a way better experience when travel to and fro is made as easy as possible for the majority of people in the metro area. It's such a basic concept and this is the reason any Seattle arena proposal not in the downtown core is a bad idea. I only went to see the TBirds in Renton once and I probably would not have often gone to Tukwila to watch the Seattle NHL Hockey Pucks play and I'm the target demo. 

 

NFL teams can get away with playing in the burbs, but almost all of those cases would be better for the team if they were downtown. I love when I go to a Bengals game I almost don't even have to think about travel. I just hop on a bus and it delivers me right there.