Stadium/Arena Saga Omnibus

[The_Admiral]

4 hours ago, TBGKon said:

Going by what you're saying, I think you might live in Pinellas and have a little bias.  Let me show some examples for the masses.  Both of these maps come from here https://www.draysbay.com/2011/6/24/2242433/draysbays-stadium-proposal-part-1.

 

This is an article from 2011, but the information is still valid today in my option.  The first map below is the current Tropicana Field location.  Red circle is 5 mile radius, and the blue circle is a 10 mile radius.  2/3, if not 3/4 of the circle is water.

Look how much of that area is water?  Guess what, pretty sure fish, turtles, and dolphins don't go to baseball games.

 

Below is a map of the same distanced circles, but centered at downtown Tampa.  Yes, about 1/4 of the area is water, the rest is swelling with populated areas.

 

10 miles in this area is 30-35 minutes driving, which moving to a center around Tampa would increase the potential population that could make a decision to go to a home game.

 

I love maps like these. They really explain a lot of the problems both Florida teams have. You really see it with Miami, and especially with the Panthers.  The only thing you have to be careful about is Atlanta and Houston, which lose none of their radii to bodies of water but are still terrible places to get around and bad at hosting sports.

[tigerslionspistonshabs]

[who do you think]

12 hours ago, FiddySicks said:

Public transportation. One area has some of the best in the world, the other (I think) hardly has any. 

 

So for trips from UC Berkeley to Oracle (uh-oh, another bridge) and Hillsdale Shopping Center in San Mateo to Oracle ((about the same distance in mileage as that Tampa to St. Pete drive that apparently no sane person would make), Google Maps says about a 25-40 minute drive for each trip, while BART's trip planner puts them at an hour. All times set to arrive at 7pm. So unless I'm missing something here, I'm not satisfied with public transportation being the difference between a perpetually sold out stadium and an empty one.

 

11 hours ago, Red Comet said:

Not McCall but I am a Missourian. I’m proud to be where I’m from and you can take your condescending compassion and shove it where the sun doesn’t shine.

 

1v1 me

 

11 hours ago, VampyrRabbit said:

Oracle park also isn't hated by locals for eating up taxpayers money and displacing hundreds of families and businesses. The building of the Trop caused huge resentment in St Pete and thats another reason for low attendance.

 

Can I get you a resistance band? You know, to help you stretch a little more?

 

11 hours ago, VampyrRabbit said:

Another factor that contributes to the low attendance for the Rays is that unlike San Francisco, which is one of the richest cities in it's area, St Pete isn't. The average income in St Pete is less than Tampas, and that is another reason for the low attendance.

 

It's a baseball game, not a hockey game or a high-end brothel. Tickets are cheap.

[GDAWG]

 

[WestCoastBias]

1 hour ago, who do you think said:

 

So for trips from UC Berkeley to Oracle (uh-oh, another bridge) and Hillsdale Shopping Center in San Mateo to Oracle ((about the same distance in mileage as that Tampa to St. Pete drive that apparently no sane person would make), Google Maps says about a 25-40 minute drive for each trip, while BART's trip planner puts them at an hour. All times set to arrive at 7pm. So unless I'm missing something here, I'm not satisfied with public transportation being the difference between a perpetually sold out stadium and an empty one.

 

In addition to BART...

 

There's Muni Metro within the City of San Francisco that actually drops you off right in front of the stadium unlike BART.

https://www.sfmta.com/maps/muni-metro-map

 

And there's the commuter rail line CalTrain (which you must of been looking at for San Mateo since BART doesn't go to San Mateo) that runs special service for Giants games from San Francisco down to San Jose. The CalTrain terminal is also closer to Oracle Park than BART as well. 

https://www.caltrain.com/giants

 

Plus, you can take a ferry directly to the ballpark from Vallejo, Oakland, or Alameda. 

https://sanfranciscobayferry.com/giants

[FiddySicks]

2 hours ago, who do you think said:

 

So for trips from UC Berkeley to Oracle (uh-oh, another bridge) and Hillsdale Shopping Center in San Mateo to Oracle ((about the same distance in mileage as that Tampa to St. Pete drive that apparently no sane person would make), Google Maps says about a 25-40 minute drive for each trip, while BART's trip planner puts them at an hour. All times set to arrive at 7pm. So unless I'm missing something here, I'm not satisfied with public transportation being the difference between a perpetually sold out stadium and an empty one.

Then what are you satisfied with? What’s the conclusion you’re hoping to come to with this one? You say the SF peninsula is hard to access, and my question is, since when? The 1930s? I’ve made day trips to Oracle about a hundred times and my starting spot is as far away as Lake Tahoe. It’s never been unusually difficult to get to the city no matter if I drive into the city and park at the stadium (which is madness in of itself, but that’s due to SF’s small footprint and that they charge $100+ to park), or I stop at the Livermore or Castro Valley station and take BART ($8 round trip and 45 minutes to the city, tops. The return trip is much easier and quicker). I’ve been to exactly one Rays game and we stayed in Tampa proper and drove in for the game. I remember a long bridge and I remember it taking more than two hours. I also remember getting lost on the way back to the hotel. Granted, this was almost 20 years ago so my memory is a bit spotty. 
 

I think the biggest difference between the two is that with the Giants if you’re traveling from out of the area, you’re going into one of the most popular and well known downtown regions in the world, so it would stand to reason that everything is directed towards that area. Where for the Rays, everything sort of felt the opposite. It felt like you were fighting against traffic to get to where you were going. Instead of having a similar vibe to the SF Bay Area, it felt more like trying to go to a Coyotes game in Glendale. It was far, out of the way, and made you pretty much constantly wonder why they would ever put a ballpark that far away from the city center. 

[who do you think]

25 minutes ago, FiddySicks said:

Then what are you satisfied with? What’s the conclusion you’re hoping to come to with this one?

 

That there's no valid excuse for the Rays being poorly supported besides simple lack of interest, that building a new dome in Tampa will therefore accomplish nothing, and the team is therefore unviable here and should get chop-chopped along with the A's.

 

25 minutes ago, FiddySicks said:

You say the SF peninsula is hard to access, and my question is, since when? The 1930s? I’ve made day trips to Oracle about a hundred times and my starting spot is as far away as Lake Tahoe. It’s never been unusually difficult to get to the city no matter if I drive into the city and park at the stadium (which is madness in of itself, but that’s due to SF’s small footprint and that they charge $100+ to park), or I stop at the Livermore or Castro Valley station and take BART ($8 round trip and 45 minutes to the city, tops. The return trip is much easier and quicker).

 

I don't know, peninsula whose main connections to surrounding areas are bridges over water? That same setup is what makes St. Pete about as accessible as Turkmenistan, according to this entire thread.

 

25 minutes ago, FiddySicks said:

I’ve been to exactly one Rays game and we stayed in Tampa proper and drove in for the game. I remember a long bridge and I remember it taking more than two hours. I also remember getting lost on the way back to the hotel. Granted, this was almost 20 years ago so my memory is a bit spotty.

 

And If I ever traveled out that way I'd probably end up driving to Santa Rosa or something. You didn't know where you going, the people who live here do.

 

25 minutes ago, FiddySicks said:

I think the biggest difference between the two is that with the Giants if you’re traveling from out of the area, you’re going into one of the most popular and well known downtown regions in the world, so it would stand to reason that everything is directed towards that area. Where for the Rays, everything sort of felt the opposite. It felt like you were fighting against traffic to get to where you were going. Instead of having a similar vibe to the SF Bay Area, it felt more like trying to go to a Coyotes game in Glendale. It was far, out of the way, and made you pretty much constantly wonder why they would ever put a ballpark that far away from the city center. 

 

I mean this is anecdotal and I can't disprove it, but I don't see it. It's a continuous highway from Tampa, across the water, into Pinellas, and down through St. Pete. 375 and 175 (both going downtown) are left exits and that'll throw people who aren't ready for them, but again, people who actually live in the area and know the lay of the land don't have that excuse. (Not that that stops a bunch of dumbasses from camping the left lane all the way down and then panicking and cutting everybody off at the last minute every single day but now we're back to the whole "breaking news, cities have traffic" thing and I'm rambling anyway.)

 

"That far away from the city center", downtown St. Pete isn't a giant strip mall. I swear people think Tropicana Field is out on the beaches or something, which actually are a :censored: to get to.

[McCall]

2 hours ago, who do you think said:

 

That there's no valid excuse for the Rays being poorly supported besides simple lack of interest, that building a new dome in Tampa will therefore accomplish nothing, and the team is therefore unviable here and should get chop-chopped along with the A's.

 

 

I don't know, peninsula whose main connections to surrounding areas are bridges over water? That same setup is what makes St. Pete about as accessible as Turkmenistan, according to this entire thread.

 

 

And If I ever traveled out that way I'd probably end up driving to Santa Rosa or something. You didn't know where you going, the people who live here do.

 

 

I mean this is anecdotal and I can't disprove it, but I don't see it. It's a continuous highway from Tampa, across the water, into Pinellas, and down through St. Pete. 375 and 175 (both going downtown) are left exits and that'll throw people who aren't ready for them, but again, people who actually live in the area and know the lay of the land don't have that excuse. (Not that that stops a bunch of dumbasses from camping the left lane all the way down and then panicking and cutting everybody off at the last minute every single day but now we're back to the whole "breaking news, cities have traffic" thing and I'm rambling anyway.)

 

"That far away from the city center", downtown St. Pete isn't a giant strip mall. I swear people think Tropicana Field is out on the beaches or something, which actually are a to get to.

Just even the fact that you think every bridge-traffic scenario is the exact same, without taking any other factors on stadiums/cities/markets, further proves that you have no sense of rational thought. You might just wanna sit this one out. You are WAY in over your head... much like a bridge.

[Red Comet]

8 hours ago, who do you think said:

1v1 me

FTFY

[DG_YouKnowWhatThatMeans]

I've spent some time in Tampa/St. Pete and all I remember is you have to drive for everything. Quick grocery store run? Nope -- 25 minutes, at least. Run to the pharmacy? 25 minutes. Go to dinner? Half an hour. See baseball? An hour.

 

Sitting in your car for long stretches of time is part of the culture in that part of the world. I don't understand why it's okay to take 45 minutes to get to a titty bar but not a baseball game.

 

Unrelated question: would a baseball stadium next to Raymond James fare better?

[Digby]

The cultural differences start with the car thing but extend from there. 
 

People live in the Bay to do yuppie city-life things, take a quick trolley or Uber to social outings, spend tons of money on overpriced beer and support the local teams even if they’re from far away. 
 

People live in Tampa Bay to have a backyard pool, leave as little as possible unless it’s the beach or a boat, and only care about the teams from their old hometown up north despite otherwise adopting the local culture (bad tans and prurient interests, primarily).

[gosioux76]

What's interesting about this debate is that once you remove the posturing, you guys have actually hit at the heart of the debate and the exact issue that makes the Rays situation so difficult to solve. 

 

It comes down to a question of whether the problem is the market or the location.

 

You may not like the way he's going about it, but @who do you think's broader points aren't exactly invalid. The way many of you have characterized Tampa Bay — as a haven for retirees more interested in their pools and the Yankees — might be more of a reason why the Rays are struggling than having a terrible stadium in an even worse location.  And if so, investing in a new stadium elsewhere in the market would seem speculative at best. 

 

Yet I can also see why it might also be worth the gamble. It's a big metro area and there's just as valid of an argument in believing that the market hasn't truly been tested yet. And the only way to test it is to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in a nicer stadium in a better location. 

 

It's quite a risk. This is a much more difficult question to answer if you're a taxpayer in the Tampa region than if you're a sports fan somewhere else with no skin in the game. 

[DG_YouKnowWhatThatMeans]

The other thing to consider is whether it's worth committing to Florida for the long term.

 

MOD EDIT: Let's not go there.

[McCall]

5 hours ago, gosioux76 said:

What's interesting about this debate is that once you remove the posturing, you guys have actually hit at the heart of the debate and the exact issue that makes the Rays situation so difficult to solve. 

 

It comes down to a question of whether the problem is the market or the location.

 

You may not like the way he's going about it, but @who do you think's broader points aren't exactly invalid. The way many of you have characterized Tampa Bay — as a haven for retirees more interested in their pools and the Yankees — might be more of a reason why the Rays are struggling than having a terrible stadium in an even worse location.  And if so, investing in a new stadium elsewhere in the market would seem speculative at best. 

 

Yet I can also see why it might also be worth the gamble. It's a big metro area and there's just as valid of an argument in believing that the market hasn't truly been tested yet. And the only way to test it is to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in a nicer stadium in a better location. 

 

It's quite a risk. This is a much more difficult question to answer if you're a taxpayer in the Tampa region than if you're a sports fan somewhere else with no skin in the game. 

 

5 hours ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

The other thing to consider is whether it's worth committing to Florida for the long term.

Actually it started with his opinion that the Rays should be contracted due to the stadium and my rebuttal that they're a good on-field team, so relocation would make more sense, wherever it may be. The "way he was going about it" went so far into the realm of ridiculousness that the general discussion between relocation outside or inside of Tampa Bay/contraction got muddied to hell.

[TBGKon]

2 hours ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

 

 

Unrelated question: would a baseball stadium next to Raymond James fare better?

Hard to say, since the Yankees spring complex in that area.  It might take a little more negotiating to get in that area.

[VampyrRabbit]

 

 

12 hours ago, who do you think said:

Can I get you a resistance band? You know, to help you stretch a little more?

I can see exactly why people might not want to go to a Ballpark that displaced an entire community and was built entirely on speculation with public money. Especially when the Trop is a monstrosity that never should have been built.

 

12 hours ago, who do you think said:

It's a baseball game, not a hockey game or a high-end brothel. Tickets are cheap.

It's not just about tickets, there are also concessions and actually getting to the ballpark. and there are 81 home games.

 

1 hour ago, gosioux76 said:

 

Yet I can also see why it might also be worth the gamble. It's a big metro area and there's just as valid of an argument in believing that the market hasn't truly been tested yet. And the only way to test it is to invest hundreds of millions of dollars in a nicer stadium in a better location. 

 

 

It's quite a risk. This is a much more difficult question to answer if you're a taxpayer in the Tampa region than if you're a sports fan somewhere else with no skin in the game. 

 

That shouldn't be a question for the taxpayer - Ideally, not a single dime of public money would (and should) be used to pay for a new Stadium in Ybor City.  The owners of the Rays can pay for it themselves or with private money.
 

 

[tp49]

No one seems to remember either that Candlestick was difficult to access outside of the 101 and an express bus from downtown.  They had attendance issues as well.  Giants attendance didn't surge until Pac Bell was built in a more accessible location.

[SCMODS]

Would Orlando even be an option?

[McCall]

4 minutes ago, SCMODS said:

Would Orlando even be an option?

I mean, possibly. If they have the interest to try and lure the Rays there.

 

 

... Wait... I just thought of something...

 

 

Isn't this the A's relocation thread?

[tp49]

Howard Terminal will probably have accessibility issues too as the closest BART stations are over a mile away, Outside of a couple of bus routes and a cross-bay ferry, getting in and out of there will be a logistical nightmare.