Stadium/Arena Saga Omnibus

[kolob]

On 3/8/2024 at 3:00 PM, Digby said:

 

Vermont is number one on this list, which is a searingly obvious tell that the methodology is too flawed to take seriously.

 

Real numbers say SLC's public transit usage is pretty anemic. Not really out of the ordinary for American cities but I'm not seeing this as a special selling point necessarily.

 

Being a resident I'd say it is pretty anemic compared to bigger cities. It's getting better ... if that means anything.

[SFGiants58]

2 hours ago, The_Admiral said:

Doubt it, but I doubt the Sharks ever looked into it, either. It would have been pretty cool, though.
 

 

Yeah, SF Sharks would’ve been good, but the Warriors’ ownership has never really wanted to foster a relationship with the Sharks. There was no partnership to build the SJ arena (when Oracle MK I was showing its age) and no invite into the SF arena (when the Sharks wanted to stupidly flee a serviceable arena). The Sharks are just a stupid organization for not approaching the Warriors, even if the Warriors would turn them down nine times out of ten. At worst, you’re renting the stadium with Sparky the SUV’s cousin occupying the dead space.

 

2 hours ago, The_Admiral said:

So too would have been a new 49ers stadium at Candlestick, a new Raiders stadium in LA, and the A's, I dunno, still in Kansas City. 

Fixes inserted - the Bay Area is fundamentally not a “multiple teams per sport” market, no matter how much the demographics support it.

[Digby]

Believe Chase Center is one of those basketball-layout-only type of arenas. Can't quite tell this with certainty, but it seems like their fancy VIP areas near the court would preclude an NHL-sized ice sheet. Is the Cow Palace still standing?

 

I also think -- and prognostication is a bad idea I realize -- that down the road, the sports industry will eventually view its abandonment of the Oakland market specifically as a mistake. It looks bad on paper but it's kind of a unique confluence that three different teams (two incompetent and bad-faith, one competent but too techbro-desperate) bailed without a fully fair shot.

Edited March 10 by Digby

[SFGiants58]

4 minutes ago, Digby said:

Is the Cow Palace still standing?

It is, but it’s about as inviting as the judge‘s mansion from Nothing But Trouble.

[GhostOfNormMacdonald]

             22 hours ago, monkeypower said:  (don't know much about the Twin Cities, but I think it might be somewhat equivalent) Even in outstate, Twins/Vikings merch was everywhere .     Far more than anything I see in Phoenix sans maybe the Suns.     Minnesota is die hard    From what I can tell 

[Gary]

1 hour ago, GhostOfNormMacdonald said:

             22 hours ago, monkeypower said:  (don't know much about the Twin Cities, but I think it might be somewhat equivalent) Even in outstate, Twins/Vikings merch was everywhere .     Far more than anything I see in Phoenix sans maybe the Suns.     Minnesota is die hard    From what I can tell 

I can tell you from a basic Phoenix native, we do care about the Suns, Cardinals and Diamondbacks, the Coyotes on the other hand, just why, they could be in the Stanley Cup Finals and I think maybe 5% would even care. At least when the Dbacks was in the playoffs to the World Series, the area went nuts. I just can’t see anyone that would really care about the Coyotes.

[The_Admiral]

7 hours ago, Digby said:

Believe Chase Center is one of those basketball-layout-only type of arenas. Can't quite tell this with certainty, but it seems like their fancy VIP areas near the court would preclude an NHL-sized ice sheet. Is the Cow Palace still standing?

 

Correct. Seems like we're seeing a move away from fully dual arenas lately, with the majority of new NBA arenas since 2000 being basketball-only, per se. The only two I can think of that aren't are Houston, which could have an NHL team but won't, God willing, and Detroit, which the Red Wings built for themselves and then let the Pistons in on at the last minute. Everyone else has the not-quite-wraparound bowl if they even have an ice plant. 

 

The Warriors, as they would, seemed to take it to a new level of opulence with their VIP sections. The 76ers are probably trying to do the same. I think that Chicago/Philly/DC/Dallas era of buildings that necessarily put the NHL first is over. I wish it weren't, though, because I'd rather have a versatile arena for the Warriors and Sharks to share than a 1% palace for one and a rapidly aging big metal box for the other. 

[spartacat_12]

On 3/8/2024 at 10:38 PM, FrutigerAero said:

-unfortunately, no map of Canada, It would be interesting to see Montreal.

 

As someone who was raised as an Expos fan until they left, I didn't really fully commit to becoming a Jays fan until I moved to Toronto ~8 years ago. Ottawa was home to the Expos AAA affiliate, and they managed to stick around for a few more years after Montreal lost the team, so I briefly tried following some new teams based on who Ottawa was farming for (Baltimore for a couple years, Philly for one season). 2015 felt like the time people outside of Southern Ontario started getting more invested in the team (ending a 21 year playoff drought will do that). 

 

I think the Jays having Vladimir Guerrero Jr. has helped bridge the gap a bit. I'm too young to remember the Expos ever being good, but Vladdy Sr. was the biggest name they had towards the end.

[LaGrandeOrange]

50 minutes ago, spartacat_12 said:

 

As someone who was raised as an Expos fan until they left, I didn't really fully commit to becoming a Jays fan until I moved to Toronto ~8 years ago. Ottawa was home to the Expos AAA affiliate, and they managed to stick around for a few more years after Montreal lost the team, so I briefly tried following some new teams based on who Ottawa was farming for (Baltimore for a couple years, Philly for one season). 2015 felt like the time people outside of Southern Ontario started getting more invested in the team (ending a 21 year playoff drought will do that). 

 

I think the Jays having Vladimir Guerrero Jr. has helped bridge the gap a bit. I'm too young to remember the Expos ever being good, but Vladdy Sr. was the biggest name they had towards the end.

 

I'd agree with this sentiment and also add that the mid-10's Stade Olympique games also earned the team some goodwill. There's definitely been a slight uptick in support, although I'd still say that baseball is at a low point in the region.

[schlim]

This thread is 16 years old and begins with a new Tampa proposal! In that time, seven teams have new ballparks, and Tampa's current stadium is now the 7th oldest in baseball.

 

How time flies when you're having fun! I refuse to check on Arizona Coyotes posts here.

[Walk-Off]

"Mental Health Check for Oakland A's fans"

[Walk-Off]

ESPN: Oakland to present Athletics ownership with lease extension

 

"In addition, the city is asking for a commitment from Major League Baseball on one of three options: (1) a one-year exclusive right to solicit ownership of a future expansion team; (2) vote to leave the A's colors and name in Oakland, or; (3) facilitate the sale of the A's to a local ownership group."

 

As noble as the Oakland government's intentions are, I am concerned that a demand that any of those three things happen will be a deal breaker for MLB.

[The_Admiral]

I still don't think the move is going to happen. Too many fragile moving parts.

[Dilbert]

35 minutes ago, Walk-Off said:

ESPN: Oakland to present Athletics ownership with lease extension

 

"In addition, the city is asking for a commitment from Major League Baseball on one of three options: (1) a one-year exclusive right to solicit ownership of a future expansion team; (2) vote to leave the A's colors and name in Oakland, or; (3) facilitate the sale of the A's to a local ownership group."

 

As noble as the Oakland government's intentions are, I am concerned that a demand that any of those three things happen will be a deal breaker for MLB.

we really bout to put these guys in Mullett Arena for three seasons arent we ?

[SFGiants58]

10 minutes ago, The_Admiral said:

I still don't think the move is going to happen. Too many fragile moving parts.

 

I mean, Vegas doesn't really want the A's and all the Fisher plans depend on public money. SLC is a pipe dream and Sacramento would be beyond stupid. Portland doesn't particularly want the A's either.

 

Just now, Dilbert said:

we really bout to put these guys in Mullett Arena for three seasons arent we ?

 

I mean, they can get stuck at their Spring Training facility for the whole season, right? I don't think the Oakland crowds or potential Vegas crowds would be much bigger than an average ST game.

[Fowler2]

12 minutes ago, Dilbert said:

we really bout to put these guys in Mullett Arena for three seasons arent we ?

 

Arena Baseball. Let's Do It!!!!

[Fowler2]

I really wonder how much it would cost to payoff the Giants for the San Jose/South Bay territory? 

[FiddySicks]

More than the A’s have. They would probably demand a lot of clauses built in with the phrase “in perpetuity” included. 

[Ridleylash]

4 hours ago, BottomlessPitt said:

I really wonder how much it would cost to payoff the Giants for the San Jose/South Bay territory? 

Way too much for the A's to stomach; the Giants aren't giving up Silicon Valley without bleeding as much out of the A's as physically possible first.

 

They'd be better-served sticking to Oakland than getting bent over and rawdogged relentlessly by SanFran.

 

5 hours ago, The_Admiral said:

I still don't think the move is going to happen. Too many fragile moving parts.

Yeah, I can't see Fisher managing anything besides crawling back to Oakland with his tail between his legs to sign the new extension. SLC is a pipe dream that seems to be getting further from Fisher's grasp every day, Sacramento is a laugher of a choice that they're clearly trotting out in desperation and it's become very clear that nobody really wants them in Vegas over an expansion franchise.

[BBTV]

10 hours ago, Walk-Off said:

(2) vote to leave the A's colors and name in Oakland,

 

This is probably what should happen, though it would likely mean the permanent end of the line for the brand.  It's a shame that he has such little equity at this point, but it's time to retire "Athletics" and move on.  It's a lousy fit for Vegas anyway.

 

Has there been more of a "coming back with tail between their legs" situation than this in the past 30 - 40 years?  It was basically announced as "done", they had renderings, a welcome presser, and all that jazz, now they're in the awkwardest of awkward spots.

 

I can think of in-market moves that collapsed on the brink of construction (Sixers move to Camden, for ex) but nothing that was to a whole new market since the teams that played Tampa for fools and the SD>DC move that resulted in the actual "Washington NAT'L League" baseball cards.