22-23 NBA Season Thread

[Sport]

29 minutes ago, oldschoolvikings said:

But is it really hate or discrediting to simply say, as good as he is, he’s still second place to MJ?  Doesn’t feel like hate to me.  
 

 

 I don't think that's what we're talking about. Talking about people who whine about Lebron because of stupid superficial off-court stuff like "he takes up too much space at his son's AAU games". Okay, get over that, weirdo. Like they're just not into his dorky vibe so they go looking for reasons to discredit him as a person. 

 

 

29 minutes ago, oldschoolvikings said:

Here’s how I always think of it…. If my life literally depended on the outcome of a single basketball game, and I mean literally, and I could choose any player in his prime as my one pick, I’d say Jordan before the question was finished. 
 

Watching MJ play you always felt he’d cut your throat in a second to win a game.  I never got that feeling from Lebron. 

 

I heard someone say Jordan was the better basketball player, but Lebron had a better career. I think it might be reversed. Lebron is a better natural basketball player, but Jordan is a better competitor who I think willed himself from a good basketball player to a great basketball player.  There's been loads of guys in the NBA who were more physically gifted than Jordan, just his evil superpower was he wanted to murder you to death via embarrassment. Lebron is a competitor, but he's also way more friendly on the court. 

 

I was like 4 years old when Jordan won his first championship so for my childhood if he was playing that season felt pointless for every team except the Bulls. From 1990-1991 through 1997-1998 , if Jordan played in a full season he ended the season with a championship. That's amazing. I even remember kids on the playground kind of all agreeing that the Rockets championships weren't real because they didn't have to play Jordan*. "The Last Dance" makes it seem like that sixth championship was in question and maybe it was, but as a kid that sixth championship, and 96, 97 before it, felt inevitable. Except for maybe a Heat year or two I never felt like Lebron was inevitable. 

 

I think I'd still take Lebron in a 5 Lebrons vs. 5 MJs game, though. 

 

 

 

*which is silly in hindsight, but that's what we thought as kids. 

[DG_ThenNowForever]

26 minutes ago, Sport said:

From 1990-1991 through 1997-1998 , if Jordan played in a full season he ended the season with a championship.

 

True, but he also got his ass rocked by the Magic in 1995. Like, he did play in those games. That series might be the most memory holes in NBA history.

 

LeBron has played 20 seasons straight, along with deep playoff and national basketball team runs included in there. MJ had multiple season+ breaks in his career, and those Wizards seasons happened too.

 

Both were/are great. Both had highs and lows. I think the MJ lows tend to be forgotten/handwaved away more than the LeBron ones. 

[OnWis97]

10 hours ago, FiddySicks said:

This is the thing that’s so baffling to me about a lot of the Lebron hate. The dude is just about the best example of a person as you could possibly expect to be the face of the league and a role model to a ton of young kids (even if you argue that athletes shouldn’t be role models, you can still at least understand the point in this). And yet people nitpick stuff like, oh, he comes across as too arrogant or oh he’s too much of a drama Queen. Like, ok. Sure. Even if that’s true (I don’t really think it is), what do you really expect? How perfect does someone have to be to validate their achievements? That’s the real arrogance if you ask me. That stuff all comes across as so annoyingly entitled from fans.  Like, people have so little left to hold against Lebron that they’re even roasting him on his stance on stuff like China and Kyrie’s antisemitism. Basically stuff that none of us would ever care about with any other athlete. Some of that comes with the territory, no doubt about it. It’s the cost of being in that position. But this dude has been held under a microscope forever and has mostly come out clean sans a few relatively minor issues (at least for an athlete and in the context of sports). Jordan had the luxury of playing in an era when there wasn’t that constant surveillance, and Jordan was famously a douche. But because of the “mystery” or whatever, it’s celebrated rather than torn apart like it is today. It just builds his legend. I think in that sense, how can you not see Lebron as at least on the same level as Jordan? 
 

That’s just my feeling, though. You’re right that some people are never gonna be swayed on this issue in either direction. 

I think a lot of the LeBron hate is fueled by two things: Jordan fandom and Kobe fandom. Then the decision multiplied it.

 

I think Lebron is #3 among Jordan/Kobe/LeBron but hard-core fans of the other two still seem threatened by him.

[OnWis97]

56 minutes ago, oldschoolvikings said:

But is it really hate or discrediting to simply say, as good as he is, he’s still second place to MJ?  Doesn’t feel like hate to me.  
 

Here’s how I always think of it…. If my life literally depended on the outcome of a single basketball game, and I mean literally, and I could choose any player in his prime as my one pick, I’d say Jordan before the question was finished. 
 

Watching MJ play you always felt he’d cut your throat in a second to win a game.  I never got that feeling from Lebron. 

And when you're talking about all-time greats, these really are the hairs that you have to split. If I need someone to help get homecourt, Jordan, Kobe, Duncan, Lebron, etc. are all valuable.  But when it's really on the line. It's Jordan, then Kobe, then Lebron (with Kobe closer to Jordan).  Lebron had the physical size and skill combo that might be unmatched.  I don't care about ring counts because circumstances matter. I don't care that he had to move around because there was no Shaq going to Cleveland for the endorsements. But in the clutch...there's just a little bit of doubt with LeBron that I never had with Jordan or Kobe.

[Sport]

13 minutes ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

 

True, but he also got his ass rocked by the Magic in 1995. Like, he did play in those games. That series might be the most memory holes in NBA history.

 

 

That's why I said full season. He came back from baseball and only played 17 games with the Bulls that year. I feel like if he's in basketball shape the Bulls probably win that series, they probably beat Indiana, and then who knows against the Rockets. 

[OnWis97]

9 minutes ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

 

True, but he also got his ass rocked by the Magic in 1995. Like, he did play in those games. That series might be the most memory holes in NBA history.

 

LeBron has played 20 seasons straight, along with deep playoff and national basketball team runs included in there. MJ had multiple season+ breaks in his career, and those Wizards seasons happened too.

 

Both were/are great. Both had highs and lows. I think the MJ lows tend to be forgotten/handwaved away more than the LeBron ones. 

Jordan definitely gets more passes than LeBron for misteps on and off the court. Having grown up with Jordan as the most popular athlete in the country (world?), there was a mystique that could simply not be matched under any imaginable circumstance.

Is LeBron arrogant? Maybe, but not nearly as arrogant as Jordan was. Jordan kinda gets a pass but there are also some differences in their arrogance. I remember a Jordan interview when he said "If I have you one-on-one, you're at my mercy." He used his arrogance to actually make himself better, like with the stories of how he'd always make it a point to take some over-hyped player down a peg. He was also an ass to some of his teammates....That's not LeBron's personality. LeBron just bought into his own hype at times, which was in a different world when he was 18 vs. when Jordan (or even Kobe) was.  I found most of it to be forgivable and an excuse for people to hate a guy they already wanted to hate (in no small part because of hype generated by media).

I think the hate is a little odd. I think Jordan can be your favorite player and you can still appreciate LeBron. And given how famous he was at such a young age, I think he handled it pretty well, even if you want to ding him on some purity tests.

[See Red]

If we are splitting hairs, Kobe had an NBA Finals game 7 where he shot 25% from the field.  I don't really get the doubting of LeBron's clutchness. Think he just had the misfortune of dragging worse teams to the finals and playing much better teams there than Jordan ever did.

Jordan's always going to have the benefit of when he played and the influence he had on the sport and popular culture in these discussions.  Also, there's this weird idea of what the NBA actually was when Jordan played.  People seem to genuinely believe if you put LeBron in the 90s against people who were smaller and less athletic and then make most of what teams do to defend LeBron against the rules, he'd be some schlub.

[officeglenn]

10 minutes ago, OnWis97 said:

Jordan definitely gets more passes than LeBron for misteps on and off the court. Having grown up with Jordan as the most popular athlete in the country (world?), there was a mystique that could simply not be matched under any imaginable circumstance.

 

I think the lack of social media and a 24-7 news cycle during Jordan's era plays into that. Had we all had cellphones with video cameras and unchecked platforms on which to post the videos we took with them in the 90s, there would probably be as many videos of Jordan behaving badly at casinos or nightclubs as we do of LeBron at, as  @Sport mentioned, his sons' AAU games. Jordan wouldn't have gotten as many passes as he did and wouldn't have been able to build a mystique because the evidence would have been front and center, played ad nauseum on cable news and dissected by their commentators and analysts. 

[OnWis97]

10 minutes ago, See Red said:

If we are splitting hairs, Kobe had an NBA Finals game 7 where he shot 25% from the field.  I don't really get the doubting of LeBron's clutchness. Think he just had the misfortune of dragging worse teams to the finals and playing much better teams there than Jordan ever did.

Jordan's always going to have the benefit of when he played and the influence he had on the sport and popular culture in these discussions.  Also, there's this weird idea of what the NBA actually was when Jordan played.  People seem to generally if you put LeBron in the 90s against people who were smaller and less athletic and then make most of what teams do to defend LeBron against the rules, he'd be some schlub.

I do find this funny. Yeah, they got away with more hockey-like things, but I really don't think it would have been too hard on LeBron. He looks more like Karl Malone than he does Jordan.

[Indigo]

Jordan fans are probably some of the most insufferable fans to ever exist. If you think Jordan is the better player, that's fine. Everybody can descide who their personal GOAT is. Half of the country would agree. But trying to discredit the other player's every accomplishment by using the same tired "sIx RiNgZ" argument when it's not even applicable is extremely annoying.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

2 minutes ago, Sport said:

 

That's why I said full season. He came back from baseball and only played 17 games with the Bulls that year. I feel like if he's in basketball shape the Bulls probably win that series. 

 

Yeah, I knew that was the distinction. But if the logic is you want MJ for one game more than anyone else, and he lost in six, then that means something, doesn't it?

 

We're splitting hairs. And LeBron/MJ will never be definitively "solved," which is silly because it's not actually a problem.

 

It's interesting to see Kobe in these conversations. He was generally hated throughout his playing career for a variety of reasons. I remember hearing him as a top 5/10 guy when he was alive, but not better than MJ/LeBron/Kareem/Russell.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Speaking of Kareem, he wrote about LeBron:

https://kareem.substack.com/p/what-i-think-about-lebron-breaking?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=482856&post_id=81748776

 

 

Worth a read if you're interested in either guy.

[Gary]

Listening to the press conference for Mat Ishbia the new owner of the Suns. This guy has this energy about him. He could be an inspirational speaker the way he talks. Let’s hope this energy can bring a title to Phoenix. This city really needs it. After 55 years and 3 Finals appearances. The fans are hungry for one

[Sport]

1 hour ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

 

Yeah, I knew that was the distinction. But if the logic is you want MJ for one game more than anyone else, and he lost in six, then that means something, doesn't it?

I wasn't the one who said I would take MJ if I had to win one game. I was just citing what I think is a cool stat that every full season he played from 91-98 ended in a championship and there's nothing incorrect in that statement. Just saying as a kid Jordan felt inevitable during those years in a way that Lebron maybe only did with regards to reaching the conference finals. 

 

1 hour ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

 

We're splitting hairs. And LeBron/MJ will never be definitively "solved," which is silly because it's not actually a problem.

 

It's interesting to see Kobe in these conversations. He was generally hated throughout his playing career for a variety of reasons. I remember hearing him as a top 5/10 guy when he was alive, but not better than MJ/LeBron/Kareem/Russell.

 

I don't think I'd put Kobe in the top 5, let alone above Lebron. 

[TrueYankee26]

As a millennial who was in the belly of his mother for MJ's first title, TrueYankee says

 

MJ > Kobe > LeBron

[PERRIN]

As a zoomer who was less than 6 months old when Lebron made his NBA debut and has only payed attention to basketball for 5 years, Perrin says

 

MJ>Lebron>>>Kobe.

 

Kobe was incredible, but he's not even a top-5 player. Wilt, Kareem, Bill Russell, and maybe a few others have achieved far more than Kobe did. I feel like he gets awarded more hype due to his flashiness and personality more than his actual play. He changed the way many viewed the game of basketball, and was one of the toughest to ever do it, but he's a lil overrated in my book. Probably 7 or 8 on my all-time list. 

 

I like Lebron way more as a person, and will undoubtedly end up with the greatest statistical resume the NBA has ever seen, but I don't know if I'd call him the most dominant or most unstoppable player of all time. MJ's tenacity and arrogance makes me see him as a bit of a jerk, but there's no doubting that his ego fueled him into becoming an absolute force of nature. People feared for their lives when playing MJ, and he proved those fears to be legitimate every single time he stepped on the court. Lebron will rip out your heart and singlehandedly ruin your season, but he's a good sport about it. Those two are easily the greatest to ever do it, but MJ gets the edge in my book. Lebron has him beat in some areas, including as a role model, but MJ takes the cake as the greatest ever.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

56 minutes ago, Sport said:

I wasn't the one who said I would take MJ if I had to win one game. I was just citing what I think is a cool stat that every full season he played from 91-98 ended in a championship and there's nothing incorrect in that statement. Just saying as a kid Jordan felt inevitable during those years in a way that Lebron maybe only did with regards to reaching the conference finals. 

 

Fair enough. MJ was the Tom Brady of his time with better Q rating.

 

On the whole, it's a good discussion because there's valid points on both sides. LeBron did more with less, was more durable, and made more Finals, while MJ never lost a championship round and was a purer scorer.

 

Shaq absolutely could have been part of this conversation had he taken basketball more seriously. And in the early 2000s, people were absolutely saying Shaq could be the GOAT. Interesting how much drive is necessary to supplement natural talent (though that kind of goes without saying).  

[FiddySicks]

3 hours ago, See Red said:

If we are splitting hairs, Kobe had an NBA Finals game 7 where he shot 25% from the field.  I don't really get the doubting of LeBron's clutchness. Think he just had the misfortune of dragging worse teams to the finals and playing much better teams there than Jordan ever did.

Yeah there’s all this talk about how Jordan was so clutch and Lebron didn’t “have it” like Jordan did, and I’m just wondering why people ignore the early losses those Jordan teams had, and seem to also ignore, like, what Lebron did vs the Warriors in 2016 and to the Celtics in the ECF in 2012. It just seems like such a weird double standard. 

[SailorOfSilence102]

I think it's more so because all of LeBron's "choking" happened in semi recent memory, whereas most of MJ's career is almost 30 years old. I think in time, probably like 10 years, we will see less and less of things like the 2017 and 2018 finals held against LeBron, and the context like the eastern conference in those years being weak will kind of fade.  2011 will always stick around though, and I imagine it'll be viewed like how the 1990 ECF are for Jordan, or the 1995 SCF.

 

I think we've already seen a bit of it to be honest, how many people seriously bring up the 07 finals against LeBron ? Not anyone seriously.

 

Though, to be honest on the whole debate, I think people underrate the teams MJ played in the finals, even as someone who thinks LeBron is better. The only weak team I would say were those Jazz teams, as it the west was kind of rebuilding, and that 98 Lakers team kind of just choked. The 96 Sonics are probably the best team of the 90s to not win a title.

[FiddySicks]

Also, and I’m not sure if the judgement is clouded due to the way his life ended, but this idea that some have that Kobe is above Lebron is pretty head scratching to me. I wouldn’t even put Kobe close the top 5.