North Dakota sues over mascot

[winghaz]

Since no one's said it yet...

I really hope the NCAA wins. Using American Indians as mascots is exploitive, no different than using a white owner using an African to market his chicken restaurant chain.

And no I don't have a problem with the Fighting Irish because there are actually Irish people on that football team.

The lawsuit has nothing to do with whether or not you disagree with American Indian nicknames. It's all about the way the NCAA handled this.

If the NCAA had told UND it had, say, five years to get rid of the Sioux nickname, UND wouldn't stand a chance.

[Spearhead]

Since you can't see the difference between an analogy and a simile, and use such simple-minded equations as Nazis to Jews, Americans to Indians the better question is, why should I even bother with you?

[chakfu]

I guess the actual definition of a simile is comparing two inherently unlike things...

So if my analogy is not actually a simile, the reason is because the two situations *are* inherently alike. Which reinforces my actual point, regardless of the semantics.

The other reason one might think my analogy is not a simile is if you think a~b is very different than (a:~(c:d) because you can only fit 2 ideas in your brain at once rather than 4...

[rams80]

To really harpoon chakfu's analogy...Native Americans also massacred other tribes of Native Americans in the past. See also the interaction of the Sioux and the Illini.

Sioux means "snake" for a reason, and it was title bestowed on them by other tribes.

(Note, this is why Illinois doesn't have any defenders, the Sioux killed them all.) In fact some people I know at the U of I see a wry irony in the Sioux spearheading the drive (when the spoiled idiots from the suburbs aren't)-finish off your foe's legacy.

[chakfu]

So Engelstad was the nazi sympathizer I remember reading about in SI or wherever...good to see he's dead, I suppose.

I find it hard to respect a university that would name anything after this guy, but I guess money talks...

It's like when I googled the guy just now, I clicked on some article in favor of the guy...blah blah he was a philanthropist, ok maybe he wasn't so bad...1/2 way through the article they first mention Jews, what does that have to do with anything...3/4 of the way through you realize hey wait, this is a white power website!

It's always awkward to find yourself on the same side of the argument as the neo-nazi's...hopefully it forces you to reexamine your original opinion...if you're really dumb, or maybe if you're mel gibson, it makes you think, hey maybe it is the jew's fault, and that's how they try to do their recruiting.

What's that law on the internet that a flame war is ended as soon as nazis are invoked? On that note, I should go to bed...

But if I were the NCAA, I'd end the argument by invoking that law... "North Dakota, your freaking stadium is a memorial to a neo-nazi. With that background, we find it safe to assume that your use of Native American nicknames is not well-intentioned and you'd damn well better change it."

[Spearhead]

It's always awkward to find yourself on the same side of the argument as the neo-nazi's

This is also a free speech issue. So, like the Nazis, you wish to put the hammer down on people who want to name their team the Illini.

Akward, isn't it?

[ElwoodCuse]

This is also a free speech issue. Saying you can't call your team the Illini or the Hurons is just ridiculous.

It's only a free speech issue if there's a government actor. This is a contract/trade dispute.

[STL FANATIC]

Screw the NCAA. May UND win, please.

I'll go on and on defending the Illini and the Chief, but that doesn't even have to be said right now.

What needs to be said is it is not within the NCAA's jurisdiction (as put forth by their own constitution) to make such a ruling over a member institution.

But beyond that, their reviewing of these schools was ridiculously flawed. The appeals process was flawed. It was all unfair and arbitrary.

And they got it dead wrong calling these things hostile and abusive.

But like I said, the bottom line is that NCAA never had the right to make this type of ruling in the first place.

The NCAA board needs to realize that they themselves are not the NCAA; the NCAA IS its member institution.

If the NCAA kicks UND out, here's hoping the U of I drops out voluntarily and joins with UND in an effort to create a new non-ridiculous collegiate athletic organization. (I can't see the NCAA trying to kick someone out though).

Brand and the rest of the board members can eat me. (Sorry, that had to be said.)

[no97]

Since no one's said it yet...

I really hope the NCAA wins. Using American Indians as mascots is exploitive, no different than using a white owner using an African to market his chicken restaurant chain.

And no I don't have a problem with the Fighting Irish because there are actually Irish people on that football team.

And what if there is anyone with Sioux ancestry on any of North Dakota's athletic teams?

While there isn't a Sioux native, there is a native American... one of the best players on the Sioux hockey team (you may have heard of him - 2005 first round draft pick 25th overall for St. Louis, TJ Oshie) Here's an article about how he's been affected by this matter...

Moose

[mfoster]

I have one question and flame me, if you must, if it's a stupid one. What's to stop the NCAA from just kicking out UND from it's association?

Because then the NCAA will get their ass handed to them for violating antitrust statutes, the same way they did when Oklahoma and Georgia challenged them in the 1980's over TV deals. Looking at UND's complaint, they're going to work the antitrust angle as well.

For those who haven't read it, here are the North Dakota's main issues with how this has been (mis)handled by the NCAA. It's unfortunate that Kupchella's letter didn't garner more attention in the media, because I think his arguments destroy any lingering validity the NCAA might have had in enacting such a policy.

Marc

[Fred T. Jane]

I guess the actual definition of a simile is comparing two inherently unlike things...

You still guess wrong.

A simile is a comparison of two items whilst using the terms "like" or "as". Since you made a comparison of two items without using those terms (or a contracted verb that would use "like" or "as" in its full form), they can't be a simile. Analogy would be the correct term in this case.

[powersurge]

I think the most accurate simile to American sports teams being using native american nicknames would be a German team called the fighting jews...pretty tasteless given history and the benefit of the doubt should be given to groups that are offended

There actually are some cases where the tribal nations near various colleges endorse the use of the name. I believe the Utah Utes is one and I believe the UND team is another example.

BTW, when a thread turns into an English lesson than I think we all have too much time on our hands.

[JQK]

We all know how i feel. No need to incite the liberal masses once again with my correctness.

Good luck to UND.

[chakfu]

"A simile is a comparison of two items whilst using the terms "like" or "as". Since you made a comparison of two items without using those terms (or a contracted verb that would use "like" or "as" in its full form), they can't be a simile. Analogy would be the correct term in this case."

I can't believe I'm still arguing grammar. That's certainly the simplified definition you learn in high school; what if I said "in the manner of"? Do you really think that the phrase "is similar to" is any different than "is like"????

simile

n : a figure of speech that expresses a resemblance between

things of different kinds (usually formed with `like' or

`as')

Webster's

note *usually*

Anyway, I'm more on the fence in other cases, Illini, Seminoles, etc, where there is tribal approval or whatever. But I am *shocked* that people don't look at the case of Engelstad and UND and say f*** these guys, I hope they lose whatever case they happen to get into. You make a deal with the devil and accept all that money from a neonazi on the condition that you accept his conditions and agenda? That indicates that this issue is part of the neonazi agenda and raises a red flag, as innocuous as the issue may be. In a university that does not have a history like this, the situation is much less clear cut.

And I think most neo-nazi's are squarely on the side of the anti-PC crowd, I think the white supremacist aspect trumps the fascist/authoritarian aspect in this case. Of course, this argument is just like defending segregation by championing states' rights.

[JQK]

The fact that a team having an Indian mascot is being compared tothe Nazi's is absolutly insane. Anyone making that argument obviously has no idea what he's talking about, and instead of supplying facts, just throws out the word "Nazi" to win an argument.

Stop it, children.

[no97]

I think the point of the Engelstad donation (and the question of how does UND accept such a donation from a questionable person) goes to the size of the donation. Name me another institution about that size (12,000 undergrads) and that remote (about 4 and a half hours north-west of Minneapolis, and two hours south of Winnipeg) that would turn down a $150 million donation?

Don't forget that on top of the $100 mil for the rink, he donated $50 mil for academic reasons. Plus, he had already donated several million in the past. Considering that it is one of the largest individual donations to a University in history, and it goes to a school that small, are you realy that surprised that they accepted some conditions, even if they weren't the greatest?

Moose

[rams80]

"A simile is a comparison of two items whilst using the terms "like" or "as". Since you made a comparison of two items without using those terms (or a contracted verb that would use "like" or "as" in its full form), they can't be a simile. Analogy would be the correct term in this case."

I can't believe I'm still arguing grammar. That's certainly the simplified definition you learn in high school; what if I said "in the manner of"? Do you really think that the phrase "is similar to" is any different than "is like"????

simile

n : a figure of speech that expresses a resemblance between

things of different kinds (usually formed with `like' or

`as')

Webster's

note *usually*

Anyway, I'm more on the fence in other cases, Illini, Seminoles, etc, where there is tribal approval or whatever. But I am *shocked* that people don't look at the case of Engelstad and UND and say f*** these guys, I hope they lose whatever case they happen to get into. You make a deal with the devil and accept all that money from a neonazi on the condition that you accept his conditions and agenda? That indicates that this issue is part of the neonazi agenda and raises a red flag, as innocuous as the issue may be. In a university that does not have a history like this, the situation is much less clear cut.

And I think most neo-nazi's are squarely on the side of the anti-PC crowd, I think the white supremacist aspect trumps the fascist/authoritarian aspect in this case. Of course, this argument is just like defending segregation by championing states' rights.

As pointed out elsewhere, I can't think of any college that, in a similar situation to North Dakota, would not turn down such a deal.

The problem with the Nazi analogy, metaphor, whatever the hell you want to call it, is that no matter how horrible the United States' treatment of Native Americans in the Nineteenth Century was, it doesn't come close to the industrialized slaughter of the Nazis.

Godwin's Law exists because comparing something to the Nazis is essentially comparing something to a massive hyperbole-not necessarily the best rhetorical tactic.

[Rocknjosie]

actually the Nazi system of ghettos was based off the American system of reservations. Obviously the final solution is an incomparable tragedy, but the race science, eugenics and the system for dealing with a people not wanted by the government (trail of tears, anyone) is comparable.

But I will concede that the NCAA handled it horribly. I'll accept arguments that schools need a gracce period to adjust.

commercial speech such as advertising does not have complete freedom and is subject to regulations

[rams80]

actually the Nazi system of ghettos was based off the American system of reservations. Obviously the final solution is an incomparable tragedy, but the race science, eugenics and the system for dealing with a people not wanted by the government (trail of tears, anyone) is comparable.

If we go down this road, though, we're going to end up ripping every European Country in the 19th Century to shreds. (Granted some ripping of them is due, because Imperialism was not one of humanity's best points.) The United States, at least, did not take the final step of them removing the Natives from said reservation to kill them factory style.

[NoHoJoe]

National

COMMUNIST Collegiate

Athletic

Association

PC is BS!!!!