MLS Expansion Thread

[Shmee]

BIB, convince me an MLS owner needs to be Paul Allen rich... go ahead...

They don't.

MLS is quickly becoming a rich boys club that just doesn't have room for a down to earth, non-billionaire, regular joe like Jeff Cooper.

Was money the issue? Yes. Did his group have more than enough to effectively run an MLS franchise? Yessir.

Hope soccer can find some other way to develop in America, because the MLS can go to hell.

BAWWWWW. Keep whining, man. St. Louis is not Eden, it is not perfect, and Jeff Cooper is not the Messiah and he isn't perfect either. Yes, he has money. No, it's not enough. If more money comes into the bid in the future, St. Louis will get the team you and many others so desperately seem to think it deserves. In the meantime, you sound like a 12-year old girl who got stood up at the school dance. And if you think there really is some agenda against the city of St. Louis by MLS, some conspiracy to keep soccer-loving residents of St. Louis away from the game, then you are as immature as you sound.

If you think MLS doesn't have room for regular guy owners, look again to the Seattle example and instead of looking at Paul Allen, look at Drew Carey. He's got a minority stake in the Sounders, but has done so much for that franchise already. He insisted that the club allow its fans to vote out the GM if they think he's doing a sub-par job. He leads fan parades into the stadium. And the Sounders? They already have a bigger season ticket base than the Mariners. They've done more to keep their fans active, informed, and interested than any other team, and they're reaping the benefits because of it.

[STL FANATIC]

Not really concerned about sounding like a whiner.

If the MLS really didn't like the St. Louis bid, they didn't have to string the city along in each of the last three rounds of expansion. I never claimed conspiracy, I only claim a misplaced agenda. An agenda where worth of the owner has way more value on a bid than other more relevant aspects.

Clearly the MLS says that Coopers bid doesn't have enough to run a franchise, but if you look at the money he has and the money behind him (if you followed locally, you'd know he had a number of people similar in financial stature to himself ready to back the bid--no single financial giant of course) and compare it to the costs an MLS franchise faces, I'd bet anything he has more than enough to run said franchise. Anything.

I didn't St. Louis or Cooper were perfect. They do however deserve an MLS team.

The most respected sports writer in St. Louis shares the opinion that Cooper has been lied to and screwed by the MLS for 3 years now. He thinks he should give up because of the way he's been treated. And he's not one to stick to the homer point of view or to write articles for "shock" value. Maybe he's a whiner, too. But I'm not gonna feel bad for sharing an opinion with him.

St. Louis has every right to be pissed off at the MLS. You guys can ignore us, that's fine. But you won't stop us from feeling wronged.

And if St. Louis gets a team in the future, will I still wish ill on the league? No. And I never claimed that. Someone who wrongs you can fix there mistake. Until said time though, I'll continue paying no attention to the day-to-day activity of the league and at this point pretty much wish ill upon the league. And while I'll support the team if we ever get it, I won't suddenly be thrilled with the league and will likely never support Garber.

[Rampart]

One thing to keep in mind with the Canadian expansion cities is that Don Garber has stated his intent to eventually breaking the Canadian clubs off and forming a division one league (8-12 teams) in Canada. That would either open up those slots for US cities or with 2012 expansion, it would curtail MLS to 18 teams.

[STL_Ian]

That's an interesting point - as of last year, Forbes had valued all but three MLS franchises below the current $40M expansion fee.

And, in a revelation sure to make St Louisians even madder, the Whitecaps apparently paid only $35 million for their ticket to the party.

You should see the pure look of shock on my face.

And, in a revelation sure to make St Louisians even madder...

I have friends from St. Louis. I've enjoyed my visits to the city. I recognize the role that the city has played in developing soccer U.S. soccer talent. All of that said, St. Louis residents need to end their "pity party" over not landing a 2011 MLS expansion franchise.

Cooper's bid was undercapitalized. He might be a rich attorney, but Cooper's rich isn't "rich enough". More importantly, the combined wealth of his potential MLS ownership group doesn't measure-up to Joe Roth, Adrian Hanauer, Drew Carey and Paul Allen rich. It doesn't measure-up to Greg Kerfoot, Steve Luczo, Jeff Mallett and Steve Nash rich. It doesn't measure-up to Merritt and Hank Paulson rich. It doesn't measure-up to Jay Sugarman, Christopher and Robert Buccini, Dave Pollin, James Nevels, William Doran and Nick Sakiewicz rich. Who made that determination? The folks handing out the franchises. Which is their right. 'Nuff said.

Cooper's passion for the sport of soccer and desire to bring an MLS franchise to St. Louis may well be deep-seated. His proposed stadium development plan may well be top-notch. That said, the ownership group that he's assembled is missing the type of deep-pocketed partner that sets Major League Soccer's mind at ease. We're talking a deeeeeeeeeeeeeep-pocketed partner. If he'd been able to produce such a partner, St. Louis would be in MLS. He didn't. Despite repeated hints and rumors that the announcement of such a partner was imminent, Cooper simply didn't deliver.

I also find grousing about Seattle, Vancouver or Portland getting into MLS ahead of St. Louis annoying because it ignores the fact that all three of the Pacific Northwest cities have supported high-level outdoor soccer for decades.

* Seattle hosted the NASL Sounders from 1974 through 1983, F.C Seattle/F.C. Seattle Storm/ Seattle Storm of the WSA, USL and PCSL from 1985 through 1993, and the Seattle Sounders of the APSL, A-League and USL-1 from 1994 through 2008.

* Vancouver hosted the NASL Whitecaps from 1974 through 1984, the Vancouver 86ers of the CSL, APSL and A-League from 1986 through 2000, and has hosted the current incarnation of the Whitecaps since 2001 in the A-League and USL-1.

* Portland hosted the NASL Timbers from 1975 through 1982, F.C. Portland of the WSA from 1985 through 1988, the Portland Timbers of the WSA and APSL in 1989 and 1990, and the current incarnation of the Timbers since 2001 in the A-League and USL-1.

By comparison, high-level outdoor soccer contested in national - or major regional - leagues has been largely absent from the St. Louis scene since the Stars folded following the 1977 NASL season. The St. Louis soccer marketplace turned its attention to the bastardized sport of indoor soccer instead.

Bottom line? If St. Louis soccer fans want to direct their wrath at anyone over their city's inability to secure a Major League soccer franchise, it shouldn't be MLS or expansion teams in Seattle, Portland or Vancouver. Their ire should be trained on Jeff Cooper and his inability to secure a deep-pocketed partner.

Everything you wrote is factual. I have nothing against any of the 3 latest cities except that they got breaks because the league saw so much green. I hope the teams are all supported well, too. The same goes for Philadelphia. I'd hate to find out the league chose rich owners over rich fan bases.

In the meantime, I hope you enjoy the Athletica-Red Stars contest April 4th.

(Side note here: Why hasn't St. Louis ever had an A-League/USL-1 or CISL side? Is it a matter of venue availability, or was there really so much love for the Steamers that outdoor soccer was viewed as being unable to get a foothold, or something else?)

I don't know about Justin, but I am anxious to see WPS action.

As for why no previous team, I think it has been a mix of no venue & lack of enthusiasm for a "minor league" team. Around here, given the choice, most people would rather spend a summer day/night watching the Cards get stomped than support some 2nd tier soccer team. I could be wrong, but I get that impression. It has pretty much been that way for all of the other minor league sports in our area, anyway. The only 2 teams that I would consider being successful are the 2 baseball teams of the Frontier League. Once again, though, it's baseball. Soccer could certainly be different and maybe Athletica will give some idea.

I think with the right venue in the 70's or 80's a major outdoor team would have taken off. As it were, the Stars were stuck with Busch & Francis Field--not a winning combination. The Steamers were beneficiaries as a result.

[STL_Ian]

And if you think there really is some agenda against the city of St. Louis by MLS, some conspiracy to keep soccer-loving residents of St. Louis away from the game, then you are as immature as you sound.

The NFL nearly pulled it off, so why not MLS?

[Sodboy13]

If the MLS really didn't like the St. Louis bid, they didn't have to string the city along in each of the last three rounds of expansion. I never claimed conspiracy, I only claim a misplaced agenda. An agenda where worth of the owner has way more value on a bid than other more relevant aspects.

Clearly the MLS says that Coopers bid doesn't have enough to run a franchise, but if you look at the money he has and the money behind him (if you followed locally, you'd know he had a number of people similar in financial stature to himself ready to back the bid--no single financial giant of course) and compare it to the costs an MLS franchise faces, I'd bet anything he has more than enough to run said franchise. Anything.

I didn't St. Louis or Cooper were perfect. They do however deserve an MLS team.

Consider the other side of the coin, here: Perhaps it's Cooper that's doing the screwing to himself and the city. Perhaps MLS is, in fact, desperate to get into the St. Louis market, keeps giving Cooper chances because he's the only man with an alleged plan in town, but when it comes time to check the ledger sheets, Cooper keeps coming up short. I would suggest you consider that MLS wants to get in the door, but Cooper keeps losing the dang keys.

As for St. Louis "deserving" a team, lots of places, it could be argued, are "deserving" of teams. Canton could be viewed as being deserving of an NFL team. So could Los Angeles. Some would say Cooperstown deserves a pro baseball team, or that Springfield, Massachusetts deserves an NBA team. And, as you no doubt know from being a longtime member here, plenty of people feel that Winnipeg deserves an NHL team. But the simple, unavoidable fact is this: pro sports is a business. And unless the proper financial backing and planning are there, no matter how "deserving" a market is, it won't land a franchise. In a time where tens of billions of dollars can evaporate on any given day, no sane operation needs to be putting its chips on charity cases, or for that matter, anything with the slightest hint of instability.

And if St. Louis gets a team in the future, will I still wish ill on the league? No. And I never claimed that. Someone who wrongs you can fix there mistake. Until said time though, I'll continue paying no attention to the day-to-day activity of the league and at this point pretty much wish ill upon the league.

To review:

Hope soccer can find some other way to develop in America, because the MLS can go to hell.

If you would like to amend this to "MLS can go to hell until my city fields a team," feel free to do so. Otherwise, what you said is what you said.

[STL FANATIC]

Needs no amendment.

I stand by it.

But if the MLS gives a team to St. Louis, I'll change my tone slightly. Sorta like I still hate the higher ups of the NFL (though it's a bit diff with a new commish), but support my Rams and thus the league.

Given a choice though, I'd prefer to see St. Louis become a part of some other promising venture and let the MLS slide into obscurity.

In the last 3 years, Cooper has done everything asked of him, until more was asked of him. He went out and accomplished that too. Then more was asked. Check. Then more.

Cooper has been treated like a pawn throughout the process. The only little bit I'm willing to concede is that at this very moment the bid has become a bit unstable with the transition into the Soccer Park development. Those involved hope it's more attractive to the MLS and investors by being on this side of the river. What that essentially does however is remove the approved Collinsville stadium from the bid and set the stadium issue back to square one with nothing other than a maybe feasible piece of land. I guess the hope is that by going back and start anew they'll come out stronger.

But they're only forced to do so because a plan that was in place and strong enough was continually shot down by the league even after Cooper continually met every new challenge asked of him by Garber.

The commish sounds sincere in his desire to place a team in St. Louis, but he's spoke the same words for three years. And it's a lie for anyone to suggest Coopers bid is not backed much, much stronger than it was the first time Garber spoke those words. Garber also talks now of trying to push investors to Jeff Cooper. If the league really wanted St. Louis so badly 3 years ago as Garber had said, why not help the bid then.

I think St. Louis will get a team, but it clearly has never been the priority of Garber to do so. He's had his eye on other markets. And for that, St. Louis feels spurned. Maybe he's sincere this time, but I don't believe a word out of his mouth.

[BrySmalls]

One thing to keep in mind with the Canadian expansion cities is that Don Garber has stated his intent to eventually breaking the Canadian clubs off and forming a division one league (8-12 teams) in Canada. That would either open up those slots for US cities or with 2012 expansion, it would curtail MLS to 18 teams.

Interesting, can you find sources to this statement?

[Gothamite]

In the last 3 years, Cooper has done everything asked of him, until more was asked of him. He went out and accomplished that too. Then more was asked. Check. Then more.

I'm sorry, that's simply not true.

MLS said he needed more capital. Maybe that was a change from earlier in his bid, but a lot of people in the last two years have seen their paper worth plummet, so you can't blame the league if they decided they wanted him to demonstrate he had the pockets to keep going for a few seasons.

So. Okay. They wanted more funding. But they didn't leave him out in the cold - MLS helped Cooper find new investors. Note the past tense - it started before Portland and Vancouver were awarded franchises. They worked with him to improve his balance sheet.

But Cooper couldn't close the deal. Instead of fully capitalizing, he signed these big splashy deals with Pujols and A-B that didn't do one damn thing to improve his bid but made nice newspaper copy. Lots of local pride in those moves, but they didn't address the known deficiencies in the bid. This was a telling move on his part, because one doesn't resort to smoke and mirrors if one has actual substance to display.

I know it's more fun to blame the league, but not only is that false in this case, it's counter-productive. MLS isn't responsible for your being passed over this time, Cooper is. It's important to realize this fact because when the next round of expansion rolls around, if Cooper is allowed to play his same game, you're going to be left out again.

[STL FANATIC]

Goth, Cooper had gained quite a bit of capital from other local investors. It's been reported throughout that his bid was ever strengthening.

It's a plain lie to say all he did was grab PR while failing to make actual progress. Everyone wants good PR, so it seems silly to blame him for that, because he was lining up people behind him. He had many local investors ready to jump on board.

Now, nobody knows the numbers except those in the tight loop, and if you want to end the conversation there, that's fine.

But it'd be wonderful if you'd stop repeating the lie that Cooper didn't improve his bid when he most certainly did.

And what I said before is not untrue. For quite some time, Cooper went out and satisfied every request the MLS had. They wanted more money, and he found it. Again and again. Apparently he couldn't satisfy the latest request, but one wonders why the MLS didn't make their demands clear to him in the beginning.

Whatever the case, it's pretty clear what the MLS likes, and that's ridiculously deep pockets irrelevant of the actual cost of running a franchise.

They say they want a great soccer market, a soccer specific stadium, and strong capital.

There's plenty of great soccer markets, so that's not hard to find. But they continue to follow the huge green and ignore that second one about the stadium. Philadelphia's stadium looks like it might, perhaps, finally get done. Portland still needs $15 million in funding. Or maybe it's just $10 now that the MLS gave them a discount. Where's Seattle play?

St. Louis had the stadium plan and enough capital. They followed the green.

Is there some intelligence in making sure your owners can sustain massive deficits? No doubt. But maybe it'd be better if they shot for progress so that these debts might stop occurring.

Do I want that 17th or 18th team (is that right or is it more?) that could start play no sooner than 2012? Yeah, but for one, I don't see how that's a good idea for the league. They're not strong enough for that rapid growth. And as much as I'm ready to see the MLS fail, I don't want St. Louis to have any part of said failure.

I, and much of St. Louis, is ready to see someone shoot for a USL-1 team and get some high level soccer here now with less BS.

As for the women, yes, I'm very excited about watching them and hope very much that it is successful.

[Saturn]

One thing to keep in mind with the Canadian expansion cities is that Don Garber has stated his intent to eventually breaking the Canadian clubs off and forming a division one league (8-12 teams) in Canada. That would either open up those slots for US cities or with 2012 expansion, it would curtail MLS to 18 teams.

Interesting, can you find sources to this statement?

Seconded. I want to see this.

[Breakwood]

http://www.stltoday.com/blogzone/free-kick...ed-in-st-louis/

Garber said he and league president Mark Abbott will ?sell like heck to get investors interested in the market? and he also preached patience, saying that the league first spoke with Vancouver investor Jeff Mallett almost 10 years ago.

[TalktoChuck]

One thing to keep in mind with the Canadian expansion cities is that Don Garber has stated his intent to eventually breaking the Canadian clubs off and forming a division one league (8-12 teams) in Canada. That would either open up those slots for US cities or with 2012 expansion, it would curtail MLS to 18 teams.

Interesting, can you find sources to this statement?

Seconded. I want to see this.

I'd like to see that to. That would be interesting to see a northern rival to the MLS.

[rams80]

One thing to keep in mind with the Canadian expansion cities is that Don Garber has stated his intent to eventually breaking the Canadian clubs off and forming a division one league (8-12 teams) in Canada. That would either open up those slots for US cities or with 2012 expansion, it would curtail MLS to 18 teams.

Interesting, can you find sources to this statement?

Seconded. I want to see this.

I'd like to see that to. That would be interesting to see a northern rival to the MLS.

I'm sure its about as financially viable as the Welsh Premier League, but that's not stopping them.

[Gothamite]

Goth, Cooper had gained quite a bit of capital from other local investors. It's been reported throughout that his bid was ever strengthening.

It's a plain lie to say all he did was grab PR while failing to make actual progress. Everyone wants good PR, so it seems silly to blame him for that, because he was lining up people behind him. He had many local investors ready to jump on board.

Now, nobody knows the numbers except those in the tight loop, and if you want to end the conversation there, that's fine.

But it'd be wonderful if you'd stop repeating the lie that Cooper didn't improve his bid when he most certainly did.

It's not a lie. MLS kept repeating that he needed more money, and he announced that Pujols was coming on board. Of course, I can't find any actual data from Cooper as to how much Pujols was contributing, either in hard numbers or in ownership percentage.

MLS' original demand wasn't met. They wanted him to demonstrate that he had capital to run the team for several seasons. For what it's worth, Cooper finally admitted that he needed more money, changing his tune after months of flash and dodge.

Then A-B came on board, bringing the one thing that the St. Louis bid didn't need - a new stadium site. What was the point of that, other than headlines?

I'm sorry. I know it's disappointing. But the notion that MLS is somehow out to get St. Louis is laughable at best, sad at worst. They even tried to line up additional investors for Cooper, for crying out loud.

The paranoia won't improve your bid for the next go-around.

[STL FANATIC]

Goth, Cooper had gained quite a bit of capital from other local investors. It's been reported throughout that his bid was ever strengthening.

It's a plain lie to say all he did was grab PR while failing to make actual progress. Everyone wants good PR, so it seems silly to blame him for that, because he was lining up people behind him. He had many local investors ready to jump on board.

Now, nobody knows the numbers except those in the tight loop, and if you want to end the conversation there, that's fine.

But it'd be wonderful if you'd stop repeating the lie that Cooper didn't improve his bid when he most certainly did.

It's not a lie. MLS kept repeating that he needed more money, and he announced that Pujols was coming on board. Of course, I can't find any actual data from Cooper as to how much Pujols was contributing, either in hard numbers or in ownership percentage.

MLS' original demand wasn't met. They wanted him to demonstrate that he had capital to run the team for several seasons. For what it's worth, Cooper finally admitted that he needed more money, changing his tune after months of flash and dodge.

Then A-B came on board, bringing the one thing that the St. Louis bid didn't need - a new stadium site. What was the point of that, other than headlines?

I'm sorry. I know it's disappointing. But the notion that MLS is somehow out to get St. Louis is laughable at best, sad at worst. They even tried to line up additional investors for Cooper, for crying out loud.

The paranoia won't improve your bid for the next go-around.

It is a lie if you're suggesting he didn't improve his bid financially. You seem well informed, but my guess is you didn't follow the bid as closely as I was able to locally. He wasn't just bringing on big names, he brought in a lot of guys closer to his level that were ready to invest if the team was awarded. In the end, for the MLS, he didn't bring in enough, but he did bring them in. And if you track the process back over the last three years, you'll see that the MLS kept upping what they asked of him, as he met their challenges throughout much of the process. The ORIGINAL demand was met. The latest was not.

AB may not have committed money, but they bring more than just a stadium site. They're doing what they can to sway the league and potential investors towards Cooper. Unfortunately, they came on late. You can say it's just the Belgian owned InBev dumping assets, and I'm sure that's why it was approved high up, but these are still the same community driven people in charge of this branch, and they do have good intentions.

As for the Stadium site being the one thing they don't need, I agree, but here's the new theory... the Collinsville site didn't excite anyone apparently. Fenton is on this side of the river, slightly closer to much of the potential fanbase, and for whatever, just potentially more interesting to investors. The idea is that it ultimately strengthens the bid and opens up new opportunities. The problem? They have no funding for a stadium there. The site is on a flood plain. It's just land basically and it sets them farther back than it helps in my mind.

Lastly, let's stop twisting my words into being a conspiracy theory that the MLS is out to get St. Louis. That's not what I've said or am saying.

I simply believe the MLS has had it's eye on other locations or more aptly other ownership groups with unnecessarily large amounts of dollars and has had absolutely no problem stringing St. Louis and Jeff Cooper along in order to advance the bids of the other locations. I do believe Don Garber wants an MLS team in St. Louis. But I don't for one second believe he had any intention of placing a team here any sooner than the next round of expansion, and I have my doubts about that one too if the Miami bid comes back and Ottawa or Montreal get on track.

I don't claim the MLS had any intention of knocking St. Louis. It was just a side-effect of their true intentions.

Oh and one more thing. As for Cooper's admittance, I don't really see that.

"We are pretty strong and have enough money for the expansion fee and the operating expenses. We need someone in the extreme high net worth area. It?s more a balance sheet issue than an inability to pay issue.?

To me he said nothing more than "we're ready to go, but the mls says we're not, so i guess we need this."

His groups could run a franchise successfully, and that's what should matter.

One final question. And I'm not doubting this exactly. But can you show me proof they tried to help Cooper out? I see that they intend to try now, but haven't come across something saying they've tried in the past.

[Brian in Boston]

BIB, convince me an MLS owner needs to be Paul Allen rich... go ahead...

They don't.

What you or I believe is irrelevant. Major League Soccer - the entity issuing the franchise rights - has determined that they would rather have prospective owners from Paul Allen's end of the personal wealth scale than from Jeff Cooper's.

They don't

According to the suits at Major League Soccer - you know, the folks calling the shots - they DO.

Unfortunately for Jeff Cooper, that means... end of discussion.

Did his group have more than enough to effectively run an MLS franchise? Yessir.

According to you, perhaps. Not according to MLS.

[Gothamite]

His groups could run a franchise successfully, and that's what should matter.

They have shown no such thing, lacking the financial resources MLS thinks they need to keep the team afloat for the first several years.

And the league's opinion is the only one which matters.

One final question. And I'm not doubting this exactly. But can you show me proof they tried to help Cooper out? I see that they intend to try now, but haven't come across something saying they've tried in the past.

Tom Timmerman's blog, among other places.

Don Garber told me a little while ago that the league will continue to try to steer investors toward Jeff Cooper

[Brian in Boston]

If the MLS really didn't like the St. Louis bid, they didn't have to string the city along in each of the last three rounds of expansion.

If anybody strung St. Louis soccer fans along it was Jeff Cooper. He was repeatedly told by MLS that he needed to add a deep-pocketed partner to his venture. He, in turn, repeatedly led both the league and St. louis area soccer fans to believe that the addition of just such a partner was imminent. Well, where is he or she?

I never claimed conspiracy, I only claim a misplaced agenda. An agenda where worth of the owner has way more value on a bid than other more relevant aspects.

Welcome to the world of modern professional sports. It isn't a charity... it is a BUSINESS.

Clearly the MLS says that Coopers bid doesn't have enough to run a franchise, but if you look at the money he has and the money behind him (if you followed locally, you'd know he had a number of people similar in financial stature to himself ready to back the bid--no single financial giant of course) and compare it to the costs an MLS franchise faces, I'd bet anything he has more than enough to run said franchise. Anything.

You would bet anything. Major League Soccer doesn't share your opinion of the financial state of Mr. Cooper's bid.

I didn't St. Louis or Cooper were perfect. They do however deserve an MLS team.

No city simply "deserves" a modern professional sports franchise. They have to meet certain criteria - including financial parameters - in order to EARN one.

The most respected sports writer in St. Louis shares the opinion that Cooper has been lied to and screwed by the MLS for 3 years now.

Again, immaterial. Bulletin: A professional sports league gets to set the criteria by which prospective franchise owners will be selected. Such a "respected" sports writer should be well aware of that.

But you won't stop us from feeling wronged.

Feeling wronged and actually being wronged can be two distinct things.

Someone who wrongs you can fix there mistake.

Perhaps, someday, Jeff Cooper will "fix" the "mistake" he made on behalf of pro soccer fans in St. Louis and actually deliver the deep-pocketed partner he's been promising would materialize.

[Brian in Boston]

In the last 3 years, Cooper has done everything asked of him...

EXCEPT for producing that deep-pocketed partner.