MLS Expansion Thread

[STL FANATIC]

It's pretty basic. None of us have any proof of anything. The MLS said no. They could be angels or the worst people on earth, but what they say goes. It is what it is, but I won't support the league until there's a team in St. Louis.

Truth is, that's not saying much. I love soccer, but if I don't have a rooting interest, I don't watch.

I do want to clarify one final thing though. When I say deserve, that doesn't mean I think they have a God-given right. It means I think they earned it and thus deserve it. But as mentioned before, we know none of the numbers and the MLS currently says they don't have enough. I just don't have to believe that's the whole story.

[Breakwood]

I do want to clarify one final thing though. When I say deserve, that doesn't mean I think they have a God-given right. It means I think they earned it and thus deserve it. But as mentioned before, we know none of the numbers and the MLS currently says they don't have enough. I just don't have to believe that's the whole story.

I really don't see how St. Louis deserves a team. Vancouver and Portland deserved teams because they supported their team in the USL. Montreal deserves a team because they sell out basically every game including 55,000 for their Champions League fixture. I'm not totally up to speed on American soccer history, but I always hear St. Louis is a big time soccer city in the US. But why don't they have at least a USL 1 or 2 team? I'm not trying to put St. Louis down, I honestly don't know why St. Louis is such a big deal in the scheme of American soccer.

If St. Louis gets a team, then all the power to them and you wont hear any complaints from me. But if St. Louis deserves a team, then Montreal, Charleston, Puerto Rico, Minneapolis, and Rochester deserve one as well.

[Rampart]

One thing to keep in mind with the Canadian expansion cities is that Don Garber has stated his intent to eventually breaking the Canadian clubs off and forming a division one league (8-12 teams) in Canada. That would either open up those slots for US cities or with 2012 expansion, it would curtail MLS to 18 teams.

Interesting, can you find sources to this statement?

I'll see if I can find this. The statements were made after Toronto was announced as an expansion team and Don Garber was talking about the long term planning and growth of MLS.

[STL FANATIC]

I do want to clarify one final thing though. When I say deserve, that doesn't mean I think they have a God-given right. It means I think they earned it and thus deserve it. But as mentioned before, we know none of the numbers and the MLS currently says they don't have enough. I just don't have to believe that's the whole story.

I really don't see how St. Louis deserves a team. Vancouver and Portland deserved teams because they supported their team in the USL. Montreal deserves a team because they sell out basically every game including 55,000 for their Champions League fixture. I'm not totally up to speed on American soccer history, but I always hear St. Louis is a big time soccer city in the US. But why don't they have at least a USL 1 or 2 team? I'm not trying to put St. Louis down, I honestly don't know why St. Louis is such a big deal in the scheme of American soccer.

If St. Louis gets a team, then all the power to them and you wont hear any complaints from me. But if St. Louis deserves a team, then Montreal, Charleston, Puerto Rico, Minneapolis, and Rochester deserve one as well.

The best guess to that answer is that St. Louis doesn't consider itself a minor league town. But in my lifetime, we've never had a chance to support one of those teams.

If we got it, I certainly know I'd attend games. At this point I'm ready to try a USL team, but I don't know if there's a shot at it.

[Gothamite]

I do want to clarify one final thing though. When I say deserve, that doesn't mean I think they have a God-given right. It means I think they earned it and thus deserve it. But as mentioned before, we know none of the numbers and the MLS currently says they don't have enough. I just don't have to believe that's the whole story.

Why isn't it?

Garber said he wanted more capitalization, Cooper failed to secure it (although he had time to make at least two other, very splashy, non-cash-producing deals with local icons).

Why does it have to be anything more complicated than that?

[STL FANATIC]

I do want to clarify one final thing though. When I say deserve, that doesn't mean I think they have a God-given right. It means I think they earned it and thus deserve it. But as mentioned before, we know none of the numbers and the MLS currently says they don't have enough. I just don't have to believe that's the whole story.

Why isn't it?

Garber said he wanted more capitalization, Cooper failed to secure it (although he had time to make at least two other, very splashy, non-cash-producing deals with local icons).

Why does it have to be anything more complicated than that?

What I don't believe is that Cooper needed more capital. Clearly the MLS says he does, and I'm not disputing that they have that desire. What I'm disputing is that it's a misplaced desire. I don't believe an MLS owner needs megabucks. I think having a secured stadium deal is tons more relevant than having a megabucks owner vs. a very wealthy owner.

I'm not claiming conspiracy by any means, but I believe if they wanted a team in St. Louis right now, they know there's enough there right now for it to be feasible. That's all.

But once again, you go over/understating things. The Albert Pujols deal was non-cash producing? Just because it was a splashy deal and a number wasn't reported doesn't mean there was no cash. In fact, that one was very CLEARLY as cash producing deal. We just don't know the extent of it.

Further, again, Cooper was acquiring capital the ENTIRE time. He just apparently didn't acquire enough. You act as though he was just sitting around looking for ways to grab PR when that was not the case at all. He lined up other local businessman, he just failed to secure the megabucks investor the MLS has shown a tendency for. That doesn't mean Cooper wasn't making cash-producing deals in the background. They just evidently weren't large enough.

If you guys really want to me stop bashing the MLS (not likely), you should at least stop telling me my blame should be on Cooper and ask me to instead blame whatever local St. Louisians that might have the cash and won't support the cause. Because there is no doubt that Jeff Cooper has put together a solid bid and has poured his heart and soul into this effort for 3+ years now. I'm not gonna blame him for anything.

[Sodboy13]

I do want to clarify one final thing though. When I say deserve, that doesn't mean I think they have a God-given right. It means I think they earned it and thus deserve it. But as mentioned before, we know none of the numbers and the MLS currently says they don't have enough. I just don't have to believe that's the whole story.

Why isn't it?

Garber said he wanted more capitalization, Cooper failed to secure it (although he had time to make at least two other, very splashy, non-cash-producing deals with local icons).

Why does it have to be anything more complicated than that?

What I don't believe is that Cooper needed more capital. Clearly the MLS says he does, and I'm not disputing that they have that desire. What I'm disputing is that it's a misplaced desire. I don't believe an MLS owner needs megabucks. I think having a secured stadium deal is tons more relevant than having a megabucks owner vs. a very wealthy owner.

I'm not claiming conspiracy by any means, but I believe if they wanted a team in St. Louis right now, they know there's enough there right now for it to be feasible. That's all.

But once again, you go over/understating things. The Albert Pujols deal was non-cash producing? Just because it was a splashy deal and a number wasn't reported doesn't mean there was no cash. In fact, that one was very CLEARLY as cash producing deal. We just don't know the extent of it.

Further, again, Cooper was acquiring capital the ENTIRE time. He just apparently didn't acquire enough. You act as though he was just sitting around looking for ways to grab PR when that was not the case at all. He lined up other local businessman, he just failed to secure the megabucks investor the MLS has shown a tendency for. That doesn't mean Cooper wasn't making cash-producing deals in the background. They just evidently weren't large enough.

If you guys really want to me stop bashing the MLS (not likely), you should at least stop telling me my blame should be on Cooper and ask me to instead blame whatever local St. Louisians that might have the cash and won't support the cause. Because there is no doubt that Jeff Cooper has put together a solid bid and has poured his heart and soul into this effort for 3+ years now. I'm not gonna blame him for anything.

So, Jeff Cooper being unable to secure enough money for an MLS franchise is not Jeff Cooper's fault.

[-kj]

Much as I don't like the Lou being passed over, StL, I think Goth and Sod are right on this one.

Edit: Oh, and Brian, too, but he's a downer.

[Brian in Boston]

What I don't believe is that Cooper needed more capital. Clearly the MLS says he does, and I'm not disputing that they have that desire.

What is there not to believe?

The entity awarding the expansion franchise that Mr. Cooper wishes to obtain has said that Mr. Cooper needs to come up with more capital in order to secure said franchise rights. That being the case, the bottom line is that Cooper needed more capital.

We get it: If you controlled a league that was in the process of awarding professional soccer franchises, Jeff Cooper would own one. That said, Jeff Cooper hasn't applied for membership in your soccer league. He applied for membership in Major League Soccer... and, to date, his application has been found wanting for financial reasons. Period.

I don't believe an MLS owner needs megabucks. I think having a secured stadium deal is tons more relevant than having a megabucks owner vs. a very wealthy owner.

Major League Soccer obviously doesn't share your opinion. They are obviously of the mind that a soccer-specific stadium is wonderful, but that such a facility could well wind-up empty if the ownership group of the franchise that plays in it does not have the depth of financial resources necessary to weather the hardships that MLS will face in truly establishing itself as a legitimate, top-tier, major-professional sports league on the North American pro sports landscape. To that end, MLS is interested in awarding future franchises to ownership groups with "megabucks" financial resources, rather than simply handing the keys to "very wealthy" owners.

... if they wanted a team in St. Louis right now, they know there's enough there right now for it to be feasible.

Obviously they don't, or there would be an MLS expansion franchise beginning preparations for the 2011 season in St. Louis right now.

The Albert Pujols deal was non-cash producing? Just because it was a splashy deal and a number wasn't reported doesn't mean there was no cash. In fact, that one was very CLEARLY as cash producing deal. We just don't know the extent of it.

Given that MLS did not award an expansion team to Mr. Cooper's group in the wake of bring Albert Pujols on-board as a partner, we can deduce that the "extent of it" was not enough.

Further, again, Cooper was acquiring capital the ENTIRE time. He just apparently didn't acquire enough.

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding! We have a WINNER! Jeff Cooper's expansion bid didn't, in Major League Soccer's estimation, have enough capital backing to warrant being awarded a franchise. Given that Major League Soccer is the entity awarding the expansion franchises in question, the league's estimation of suitability is the one that counts. Jeff Cooper failed to meet it.

[STL FANATIC]

So the MLS is perfectly pure and fair. You have the inside track on that I take it.

I don't buy it. And I'm allowed to feel that way.

The MLS and Don Garber aren't the devil.

But this is my belief, and it's very reasonable and impossible for you to prove wrong (which doesn't at all mean I'm right)...

The MLS' goals were to put teams in other locations with megabucks owners. They had no immediate desire to place a team in St. Louis, and unless Cooper was able to find a big name big bucks owner he never had a real chance in this round.

You keep stating that Cooper didn't have enough because the MLS said he didn't. And guess what??? I GET THAT. My argument is that their priorities are misplaced and they're making poor decisions because of it. Of course, BIB, you said you get that and then proceeded to argue the same things for 4 more paragraphs.

And in making those arguments, you failed to even take things in context.

Again, everything you respond to me implies the MLS is perfect and not run by men who might have slightly misplaced priorities. My guess is you can't back that up anymore than I can back up that they aren't.

Your response to the Albert Pujols thing? A complete waste of your time. It was in response to Gothamite saying Pujols brought no cash, when he most certainly did. I didn't for one second say Albert should have put them over the top. I said he brought at least a penny to the bid. So if you're gonna jump into other's interactions, please try and have a grasp of what's actually being said and save yourself some time.

The same goes for you're lame "DING DING DING". Response to Goth saying Cooper didn't do anything to actually improve his bid. He did. He gained a lot of capital behind him. But yes, it wasn't enough for the MLS to grant him a team, but for the response to that see the top of this post.

Let's recap.

You believe the MLS is perfect. You believe all of their decisions are pure. You're satisfied with if they did it, it was right.

I believe the MLS had their priorities set from the get go. I believe St. Louis wasn't one. And I believe those priorities were misplaced, because I don't believe it takes billions of dollars to run an MLS franchise.

Neither one of the above suggestions are unreasonable, and neither can be proven right or wrong with out a tremendous amount of research.

But hey, I'm happy to keep arguing in a civil manner for page upon page upon page if people can't agree to disagree with me.

[STL FANATIC]

So, Jeff Cooper being unable to secure enough money for an MLS franchise is not Jeff Cooper's fault.

Sometimes people do everything right and things still don't go as they should. So, no, I don't fault Jeff Cooper in the least.

I know you guys want me to have to blame one of my own, so seriously, just turn it to STL businesses and such. That's more reasonable blame IMO, and I don't want to do that either.

It's perfect for you guys.

[BrySmalls]

Nevermind.

[Gothamite]

Agree to disagree, then.

We've left our words for the lurkers to judge the relative strengths of the arguments.

[STL FANATIC]

Agree to disagree, then.

We've left our words for the lurkers to judge the relative strengths of the arguments.

Fair enough.

And some hours removed I'm willing to concede there's probably flaws to my argument. But yet if challenged, I'd probably end up making it all over again.

If sports didn't bring out crazy loyalty and passion, they wouldn't be any fun, would they?

[BB61]

I don't blame Justin for being upset that MLS has passed them over. Because, let's face it, sound finances or not, I'd be pissed off if Philly got passed over, and really, I think they should've been in the league ahead of Tampa Bay, Salt Lake, and a second team in L.A. But I digress.

[Brian in Boston]

So the MLS is perfectly pure and fair.

Nobody, least of all me, ever claimed that "MLS is perfectly pure and fair". MLS is a BUSINESS. Period. Within U.S. and Canadian legal parameters, they get to make the rules by which their expansion process takes place. Whether it strikes you, me, Jeff Cooper or the Man in the Moon as being "perfectly pure and fair" is immaterial.

You have the inside track on that I take it.

I have an understanding of the realities of the modern sports business marketplace that is apparently escaping you when it comes to discussing this issue in an unbiased and emotion-free manner.

I don't buy it. And I'm allowed to feel that way.

Sure you are. That said, your feelings don't factually establish that Major League Soccer's priorities are misplaced... no matter how strongly you feel them.

But this is my belief, and it's very reasonable...

With all due respect, even a cursory examination of your posts on this topic doesn't begin to reveal a "reasonable" train of thought. You've had a mad-on for how MLS has conducted the expansion process vis a vis Jeff Cooper's efforts for quite some time now... and it has undoubtedly colored your posts on the topic. "Reasonable"? We'll have to agree to disagree.

... and impossible for you to prove wrong

I don't have to "prove" anything. You're the one tossing around conspiracy theories.

The MLS' goals were to put teams in other locations with megabucks owners. They had no immediate desire to place a team in St. Louis, and unless Cooper was able to find a big name big bucks owner he never had a real chance in this round.

Cue moody soundtrack and stark film-noir lighting. The conspiracy begins...

My argument is that their priorities are misplaced and they're making poor decisions because of it.

Yet, there's no real way of knowing that without awarding expansion franchises to both "megabucks" owners and "very wealthy" owners simultaneously, then seeing how each ownership group might deal with a calamitous event impacting MLS. Understandably, Major League Soccer doesn't want to go that route, as they are of the belief that the league - while getting stronger and stronger as a business entity with each passing year - isn't out of the woods quite yet when it comes to establishing itself on the North American major-pro sports scene. So, they've elected to favor expansion candidates with deep, DEEP, DEEP pockets, so as to insure that going forward the league's member-franchises will have the best possible chance of surviving any unforeseen circumstances that might tax the league financially.

Again, everything you respond to me implies the MLS is perfect and not run by men who might have slightly misplaced priorities.

Wrong. Several times in my responses I've indicated that it matters not a whit whether the priorities of MLS officials are misplaced, as the expansion process is what it is and they are calling the shots. It's their league... they get to do that. If Jeff Cooper doesn't like it, he can simply choose to walk away.

My guess is you can't back that up anymore than I can back up that they aren't.

Again, what exactly do I have to "back up"? A take on the situation outside of your baseless conjecture? What do I have to refute? Your outlandish conspiracy theories? Trust me, you have lost ALL perspective on this issue.

You believe the MLS is perfect. You believe all of their decisions are pure. You're satisfied with if they did it, it was right.

I definitely never said that. Yet another indication of your aggrieved sense of propriety over the "MLS to St. Louis" expansion process hearing what it wants to hear. My "satisfaction" is immaterial. They run a business bound by their decisions.

As Gothamite suggested, let's just move on. Here's hoping that you're cheering-on a Major League Soccer franchise in St. Louis by 2012. With any luck, your ownership group will be more committed to establishing and maintaining the success of said team than the Kraft family has been to the New England Revolution.

[Gothamite]

Damn it, Brian. We had reached détente. Don't rock the blasted apple cart.

[STL FANATIC]

Damn it, Brian. We had reached détente. Don't rock the blasted apple cart.

No worries, I'm finished with it.

I'm biased, ticked, and all those things. I still, at the very simplest, believe that the MLS had the priorities of cities they'd like to be in soon and that St. Louis was not high on that list unless their bid blew the others away (and maybe that's fair). It didn't. The MLS went to those other locations. In time, I'm sure we'll have our team.

In the meantime, I don't really support the MLS anyways, I have no reason to. I probably will feel a little spurned when I read/hear about it until we do get a team.

And that's the way it is. I got talking too much and probably said some unreasonable stuff. Don't think I really offended anybody, so I'm not sure an apology is necessary, but if I did I apologize.

[Frylock]

I do want to clarify one final thing though. When I say deserve, that doesn't mean I think they have a God-given right. It means I think they earned it and thus deserve it. But as mentioned before, we know none of the numbers and the MLS currently says they don't have enough. I just don't have to believe that's the whole story.

I really don't see how St. Louis deserves a team. Vancouver and Portland deserved teams because they supported their team in the USL.

The best guess to that answer is that St. Louis doesn't consider itself a minor league town..

I love that statement. I genuinely do. Because THAT, my friends, is why Portland DID get a MLS franchise: It IS a minor league town. Why else would we give up the stadium to soccer and build a Minor League specific ballpark for the Beavers? I mean, seriously... It really makes me sick that because of this situation, Portland will probably never get a MLB team in my lifetime.

STL FANATIC, if it were up to me, you could have Portland's MLS team in a heartbeat!

[-kj]

Which one draws better? The Timbers seem to put a lot of butts in the seats at PGE, and they're a "minor league" USL-1 outfit. With an MLS team, I imagine the growth will be near Seattle's; of course, the USL Sounders drew for crap.

Besides, PGE lays out better for soccer than baseball. I imagine a new stadium for the Beavers will be much nicer.