The 2010-2011 MLB Offseason Thread

[crashcarson15]

Longtime Yankees and Astros SP Andy Pettite to announce his retirement.

A combination of AJ Burnett, Sergio Mitre, Freddy Garcia, Bartolo Colon and Ivan Nova will make up 60% of the Yankees rotation this year. I can't be more pleased about this.

They'll just buy a starter from a non-contender at the trade deadline.

That's the key though. I think they'll be 3rd in the division then. I really do.

[JayJaxon]

Longtime Yankees and Astros SP Andy Pettite to announce his retirement.

A combination of AJ Burnett, Sergio Mitre, Freddy Garcia, Bartolo Colon and Ivan Nova will make up 60% of the Yankees rotation this year. I can't be more pleased about this.

They'll just buy a starter from a non-contender at the trade deadline.

That's the key though. I think they'll be 3rd in the division then. I really do.

I actually think so too. I look forward to it.

[Lights Out]

Longtime Yankees and Astros SP Andy Pettite to announce his retirement.

And ESPN is already pissing me off with the dumb argument that his meaningless postseason wins record should get him into the Hall of Fame.

First of all, just come out and say it, ESPN: you only want him in the Hall because he's a member of the "Core Four" and donned Yankee pinstripes for the majority of his career. Second of all, pitcher win/loss means absolutely nothing. I thought the media had finally learned this when Felix Hernandez got the Cy Young, but I guess I was wrong.

[oddball]

Longtime Yankees and Astros SP Andy Pettite to announce his retirement.

And ESPN is already pissing me off with the dumb argument that his meaningless postseason wins record should get him into the Hall of Fame.

First of all, just come out and say it, ESPN: you only want him in the Hall because he's a member of the "Core Four" and donned Yankee pinstripes for the majority of his career. Second of all, pitcher win/loss means absolutely nothing. I thought the media had finally learned this when Felix Hernandez got the Cy Young, but I guess I was wrong.

Um, no. Wins actually mean something, especially somewhere Felix Hernandez would know nothing about and that is the playoffs. I guess when you're a supporter of a good pitcher who pitches in games that have no pressure in them like Hernandez does, because his team is out of the playoffs by the first week, you would say that wins mean nothing. I'm sorry, but when you get to post season, something Hernandez will never do and when if he does, he'll wilt, then you'll know that wins mean everything. If you don't win, then you don't matter. I'm not saying Pettite is a Hall of Famer, but what I'm saying is that in the playoffs wins mean everything. It's about winning in the post season and no one gives a rat's behind about walks, strikeouts, era or whatever stupid stat you stat freaks want to look at. A starter who gets wins in more valuable than a starter who just puts up good numbers.

[The_Admiral]

WINS ARE A FUNCTION OF RUN SUPPORT, YOU DROOLING TROG

RUN SUPPORT IS WHOLLY BEYOND THE CONTROL OF AN AMERICAN LEAGUE PITCHER

[The_Admiral]

(that being said, there are reasonable arguments that could be made against Hernandez if one wants to contend that pitchers in tight pennant races, e.g. David Price, had more on the line than a guy playing out the string since May)

[NJTank]

I will say one thing in favor of Pettite's HOF candidacy. He was an excellent big game pitcher who seemed to pitch his best in the postseason.

[Jigga]

He admitted taking HGH...not that he should have gotten in anyway, but to the holier-than-thou BBWAA, that ruined any chance Pettitte ever had. That should not be discounted.

Plus, if John Smoltz and Curt Schilling are "borderline" hall of famers, then Pettitte's name should never even be mentioned for consideration. Pettitte doesn't even compare to guys like Tom Glavine and Mike Mussina.

[NJTank]

Well in my book Smoltz and Schilling are not borderline. Smoltz is a no-brainer first ballot Hall of Famer, and a Schilling should be in as well. Pettite is borderline in my mind, but I may lean to putting him in if I had a vote.

[McCall]

Glavine, Smoltz, Schilling are for sure in, possibly first-balloters. Pettitte will eventually get in, probably take a few tries. Mussina is a little questionable.

[The_Admiral]

Mussina is a guy who seems like he ought to be there until you give his numbers a little bit more scrutiny and have to start debating it. He occupies the same plane as Jack Morris in that respect (Pettitte might even better, as both are revered as postseason warriors but don't quite have the regular season numbers).

[infrared41]

Seriously, people are actually debating whether or not Andy Pettitte is a HOF pitcher? If Pettitte had pitched his entire career in Milwaukee he'd be Bob Welch and we aren't having this discussion.

[infrared41]

Well in my book Smoltz and Schilling are not borderline. Smoltz is a no-brainer first ballot Hall of Famer, and a Schilling should be in as well. Pettite is borderline in my mind, but I may lean to putting him in if I had a vote.

Thank goodness you don't have a HOF vote then.

[epper]

Longtime Yankees and Astros SP Andy Pettite to announce his retirement.

And ESPN is already pissing me off with the dumb argument that his meaningless postseason wins record should get him into the Hall of Fame.

First of all, just come out and say it, ESPN: you only want him in the Hall because he's a member of the "Core Four" and donned Yankee pinstripes for the majority of his career. Second of all, pitcher win/loss means absolutely nothing. I thought the media had finally learned this when Felix Hernandez got the Cy Young, but I guess I was wrong.

Um, no. Wins actually mean something, especially somewhere Felix Hernandez would know nothing about and that is the playoffs. I guess when you're a supporter of a good pitcher who pitches in games that have no pressure in them like Hernandez does, because his team is out of the playoffs by the first week, you would say that wins mean nothing. I'm sorry, but when you get to post season, something Hernandez will never do and when if he does, he'll wilt, then you'll know that wins mean everything. If you don't win, then you don't matter. I'm not saying Pettite is a Hall of Famer, but what I'm saying is that in the playoffs wins mean everything. It's about winning in the post season and no one gives a rat's behind about walks, strikeouts, era or whatever stupid stat you stat freaks want to look at. A starter who gets wins in more valuable than a starter who just puts up good numbers.

I've never understood this argument. Felix has just as much if not MORE pressure than someone like Sabathia or Halladay, because if he gives up just 1 or 2 runs, his team will most likely lose. Those other guys have the comfort of knowing even if they give up 4 or 5 or 6 runs, their offense will likely pick them up and give them the useless Win stat anyways.

[Lights Out]

Exactly! Felix had to carry the whole team on his back every time he pitched last year, considering he was saddled with ARGUABLY THE WORST OFFENSE IN THE MLB'S MODERN ERA and all. Coming back from even a two-run deficit was impossible for that Mariners offense. Do you win-lovers have any clue how much pressure that puts on a pitcher knowing that his offense can't get him out of a jam?

[TFoA]

Longtime Yankees and Astros SP Andy Pettite to announce his retirement.

And ESPN is already pissing me off with the dumb argument that his meaningless postseason wins record should get him into the Hall of Fame.

First of all, just come out and say it, ESPN: you only want him in the Hall because he's a member of the "Core Four" and donned Yankee pinstripes for the majority of his career. Second of all, pitcher win/loss means absolutely nothing. I thought the media had finally learned this when Felix Hernandez got the Cy Young, but I guess I was wrong.

Um, no. Wins actually mean something, especially somewhere Felix Hernandez would know nothing about and that is the playoffs. I guess when you're a supporter of a good pitcher who pitches in games that have no pressure in them like Hernandez does, because his team is out of the playoffs by the first week, you would say that wins mean nothing. I'm sorry, but when you get to post season, something Hernandez will never do and when if he does, he'll wilt, then you'll know that wins mean everything. If you don't win, then you don't matter. I'm not saying Pettite is a Hall of Famer, but what I'm saying is that in the playoffs wins mean everything. It's about winning in the post season and no one gives a rat's behind about walks, strikeouts, era or whatever stupid stat you stat freaks want to look at. A starter who gets wins in more valuable than a starter who just puts up good numbers.

WINS ARE A FUNCTION OF RUN SUPPORT, YOU DROOLING TROG

RUN SUPPORT IS WHOLLY BEYOND THE CONTROL OF AN AMERICAN LEAGUE PITCHER

It's real bad that two sentences & a picture of Jim Cornette basically debunked everything in that post.

[BBTV]

Wins are also a function of run prevention.

Do they tell the whole story? Of course not. But to dismiss them is absurd. So is claiming that it's tougher to pitch for a last place team in front of 50 people than a playoff team in front of 50000 and a blood thirst media.

[JayJaxon]

In my opinion Pettite is not a HOF pitcher. He was money in the playoffs and if I had one playoff game to win I would probably pick either him or John Smoltz. But When you look at his whole body of work, I think he falls short.

Look at it like this. If he was an elite pitcher then he should have won a lot more with that lineup hitting for him. I know that statement is going to draw some controversy but if he had pitched for the Royals or Pirates I don't think we would be having this discussion right now.

[Shumway]

In other news, Jim Edmonds signed the minor league/spring training invite contract with St. Louis. I'd love to see him hit his 400th HR...I think he's 7 away.

I am once again a Cardinal...kinda.

[The_Admiral]

Wins are also a function of run prevention.

Do they tell the whole story? Of course not. But to dismiss them is absurd. So is claiming that it's tougher to pitch for a last place team in front of 50 people than a playoff team in front of 50000 and a blood thirst media.

They don't tell the whole story. In fact, I don't think they tell much of a story at all. It's just a matter of who's in the right place at the right time. You can pitch 7 shutout innings and leave a 0-0 game, only for some reliever to poach your win when someone finally scores for you later. Conversely, you can give up 4 over 5 while the other guy gives up 8 over 3 and get the win there. But you're no dummy; you know all this. It's the least telling statistic we have for assessing pitching (well, that and VORP). Even something as primitive as ERA tells you how many runs are being scored against you. Wins measure relative happenstance. Even blown holds/saves, a cousin of W-L, essentially says "you had to perform a specific task and you didn't do it."

I do agree that pitching successfully for a contender, with all its ramifications, is more valuable than pitching successfully for a cellar-dweller. Weak-ass as the 2010 Mariners' hitting was, there's still a different mentality in taking the mound for them than there is in taking the mound for a team that needs late-season wins lest all hell break loose.