The decline of American football?

[IceCap]

Its just the continued campaign to make America weaker.

Operation Maple Hammer is proceeding as planned.

No its not Canadians running this operation.

That's right...nothing to do with it...<.< >.>

[Gothamite]

I think we'll see an evolution in the game over the next decade. Start by banning the 3-point stance, then reduce protective equipment.

The game will continue to be rough-and-tumble. In fact, there will likely be more blood on the field than there is now. Hopefully slightly less early-onset dementia, though.

[OnWis97]

Its just the continued campaign to make America weaker. Football has been football for years and in the past the hitting was rougher and more aggressive and nasty. Closing lining use to be legal for crying out loud. Its too much hand wringing that has created a situation where we are all too cautious. Just allow it to thrive as it was and ban hits to the head and just realize injuries are part of the game and get over it. People who play football will make the choice and that stop trying to baby everyone.

Alas, it is not that simple. (It never is, is it?) This isn't so much about the people who play football now, it's about the people who will be playing football 20-30 years from now. Or, to be more precise, people who won't be playing football 20-30 years from now because when they were kids back in the 2010s, their parents decided the sport was too dangerous for them and steered them into other sports. Or into piano lessons or acting or whatever.

We can argue until we're blue in the face that head injuries are part of the game, and we'd be absolutely right about that. But as I said in the thread subtitle, that's exactly the problem. Saying that head injuries are part of the game is like saying that the risk of getting killed is part of war. But then, why do you suppose so many people are anti-war?

See, he's right! Piano and acting...talk about weakening of America!

You are correct, it's not that simple. Tank's right that injuries are part of the game. If your kid goes out for football he may experience some time on crutches...and that's life. No kid should go their whole life without risking getting hurt. That's no way to live.

However, we are not simply talking about getting hurt. We are talking about long-term quality of life issues. Multiple concussions can lead to a rough adulthood. And people are starting to recognize it...I don't have (and don't want) kids, but I tend to think I'd let my kids play football if they wished...however, if they did not push it, I'd probably push other sports. Putting my kid in basketball or hockey instead of football is not "weakening" my little piece of America.

And I agree with the posters that say proper tackling is key. I played one year of football in 6th grade and I still remember being taught how to tackle. How many times do you watch college and pro "tackles" made with no use of the arms whatsoever...it lends itself to more head injuries and is less effective. I wonder whether defensive coaches have just given up...the players wanna get on the highlight real.

You will never 100% eliminate head injuries...reasonable people know that and accept it. However, I don't think trying to prevent it (even if it is PR first and safety second) is the weakening of America. The recent fines were excessive example-makers and unfair to the finees (though Merriweather's hit was pretty blatent), but it does not mean it should not be addressed.

If trying to reduce head injuries is the "weakening of America", then what do you say to:

• batting helmets
  
• catcher's masks
  
• goalie masks
  

And what about:

• air conditioning
  
• electric heating
  
• microwave ovens
  
• elevators
  
• abundances of cheap/free parking
  
• Segways
  

Or is is that preventing long-term-quality-of-life-damaging injuries is "weakening" but allowing our lifestyles to be totally convenience-driven is not?

[Gothamite]

Tank's kidding.

[mania]

I saw it less as kidding and more "'MURICA HATIN' LIBRULS RUININ' ERR'THANG" but ymmv.

[BlueSky]

Its just the continued campaign to make America weaker. Football has been football for years and in the past the hitting was rougher and more aggressive and nasty. Closing lining use to be legal for crying out loud. Its too much hand wringing that has created a situation where we are all too cautious. Just allow it to thrive as it was and ban hits to the head and just realize injuries are part of the game and get over it. People who play football will make the choice and that stop trying to baby everyone.

I'm just going to throw this out there.

If we do succeed in cutting down some of the long term negative health effects of football, it probably would help to drop overall health costs a little. Which would be a good thing.

If cutting healtcare costs is your motivation, forget football and outlaw smoking.

To the helmet-to-helmet thing, count me in to the proper tackling camp. Spearing has always been against the rules and while I remember the old days where pretty much everything went, including clothes-lining ("closing lining" ??), I don't really remember head-to-head being a huge problem. Of course, that was before SportsCenter came along and everybody wanted to get the "highlight hit." Time to go back to fundamentals.

Thinking that all this will groundswell into the death of American football as we know it is a gross overreaction, unless the "everybody gets a trophy" bunch takes over our society. That would be sad.

[See Red]

From a legal standpoint, doesn't the NFL have to take these steps to make the game safer so, years from now when they're being taken to court, they can say they did everything in their power to make the game safer and the players assumed the risk that went with playing the game?

[rams80]

Its just the continued campaign to make America weaker. Football has been football for years and in the past the hitting was rougher and more aggressive and nasty. Closing lining use to be legal for crying out loud. Its too much hand wringing that has created a situation where we are all too cautious. Just allow it to thrive as it was and ban hits to the head and just realize injuries are part of the game and get over it. People who play football will make the choice and that stop trying to baby everyone.

I'm just going to throw this out there.

If we do succeed in cutting down some of the long term negative health effects of football, it probably would help to drop overall health costs a little. Which would be a good thing.

If cutting healtcare costs is your motivation, forget football and outlaw smoking.

To the helmet-to-helmet thing, count me in to the proper tackling camp. Spearing has always been against the rules and while I remember the old days where pretty much everything went, including clothes-lining ("closing lining" ??), I don't really remember head-to-head being a huge problem. Of course, that was before SportsCenter came along and everybody wanted to get the "highlight hit." Time to go back to fundamentals.

Thinking that all this will groundswell into the death of American football as we know it is a gross overreaction, unless the "everybody gets a trophy" bunch takes over our society. That would be sad.

Its Baby Steps with Tanklin. While a blanket ban on smoking would also be very good for public health, Tank would probably see it as yet another sign that JESUS CHRIST KARL MARX IS KNOCKING ON MY DOORSTEP AND PREPARING TO RUIN AMERICA!!!

/OT

[Shmee]

From a legal standpoint, doesn't the NFL have to take these steps to make the game safer so, years from now when they're being taken to court, they can say they did everything in their power to make the game safer and the players assumed the risk that went with playing the game?

Absolutely. The NFL spent years trying to argue that the research behind CTE, tau protein buildup, Alzheimer's, vertigo, and depression in former players was flawed and wrong. Now that the scientific community is planted firmly behind the idea that concussions and even minor repetitive head trauma can lead to serious problems for athletes down the road, it's time for the NFL to hop on board as well.

[The_Admiral]

The NFL spent years trying to argue that the research behind CTE, tau protein buildup, Alzheimer's, vertigo, and depression in former players was flawed and wrong.

"Just ask this scientician."

Thinking that all this will groundswell into the death of American football as we know it is a gross overreaction, unless the "everybody gets a trophy" bunch takes over our society.

I think you're conflating two separate ills here. Everyone's-a-winner political correctness doesn't really have much to do with "stop running into each other and turning your heads into mush." Nobody's saying this research will "kill American football," it'll just make it more of a niche at the developmental levels. So maybe you won't see upper-middle-class suburban high schools playing football anymore because parents decided their children's brains were too precious and the school decided they didn't want to be sued. Big deal; they weren't gonna make it to the Glorious Weekly Bloodsport anyway.

[BBTV]

Its just the continued campaign to make America weaker. Football has been football for years and in the past the hitting was rougher and more aggressive and nasty. Closing lining use to be legal for crying out loud. Its too much hand wringing that has created a situation where we are all too cautious. Just allow it to thrive as it was and ban hits to the head and just realize injuries are part of the game and get over it. People who play football will make the choice and that stop trying to baby everyone.

I'm just going to ask before making an assumption - have you ever strapped on a helmet and played football at a high-school or higher level? It seems to be a very easy post to type from the comfort of one's couch, without ever having been "jacked up" and concussed, if that is in fact the case. There's no place in civilized society for people to be foaming at the mouth to watch other men bash their heads until one can't stand / speak / walk / etc. There's plenty of room for sport, football included, but not barbarism. I'm not saying that football is barbarism, yet, but as players get bigger and faster, it could easily go down that route.

[slapshot]

Its just the continued campaign to make America weaker. Football has been football for years and in the past the hitting was rougher and more aggressive and nasty. Closing lining use to be legal for crying out loud. Its too much hand wringing that has created a situation where we are all too cautious. Just allow it to thrive as it was and ban hits to the head and just realize injuries are part of the game and get over it. People who play football will make the choice and that stop trying to baby everyone.

Mike Webster

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Webster

[DEAD!]

Its just the continued campaign to make America weaker. Football has been football for years and in the past the hitting was rougher and more aggressive and nasty. Closing lining use to be legal for crying out loud. Its too much hand wringing that has created a situation where we are all too cautious. Just allow it to thrive as it was and ban hits to the head and just realize injuries are part of the game and get over it. People who play football will make the choice and that stop trying to baby everyone.

I'm just going to ask before making an assumption - have you ever strapped on a helmet and played football at a high-school or higher level? It seems to be a very easy post to type from the comfort of one's couch, without ever having been "jacked up" and concussed, if that is in fact the case. There's no place in civilized society for people to be foaming at the mouth to watch other men bash their heads until one can't stand / speak / walk / etc. There's plenty of room for sport, football included, but not barbarism. I'm not saying that football is barbarism, yet, but as players get bigger and faster, it could easily go down that route.

Sure there is a place.... the boxing ring.

[NJTank]

Its just the continued campaign to make America weaker. Football has been football for years and in the past the hitting was rougher and more aggressive and nasty. Closing lining use to be legal for crying out loud. Its too much hand wringing that has created a situation where we are all too cautious. Just allow it to thrive as it was and ban hits to the head and just realize injuries are part of the game and get over it. People who play football will make the choice and that stop trying to baby everyone.

I'm just going to throw this out there.

If we do succeed in cutting down some of the long term negative health effects of football, it probably would help to drop overall health costs a little. Which would be a good thing.

If cutting healtcare costs is your motivation, forget football and outlaw smoking.

To the helmet-to-helmet thing, count me in to the proper tackling camp. Spearing has always been against the rules and while I remember the old days where pretty much everything went, including clothes-lining ("closing lining" ??), I don't really remember head-to-head being a huge problem. Of course, that was before SportsCenter came along and everybody wanted to get the "highlight hit." Time to go back to fundamentals.

Thinking that all this will groundswell into the death of American football as we know it is a gross overreaction, unless the "everybody gets a trophy" bunch takes over our society. That would be sad.

That's the people behind this I'm afraid, and those are the people I am talking about in making America weaker.

[The_Admiral]

The people behind this are neurosurgeons.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

The people behind this are neurosurgeons.

A vast liberal cabal is more interesting though, you have to give him that.

The NFL should want to get out ahead of this. Back in 2007, the most respected pro wrestler in the world went and killed his wife and two children, and them himself. People called it roid rage, but really is was brain damage. The doctors who conducted the autopsy on Chris Benoit found that his brain had been turned to mush due to too many strikes to the head, including from others (like chairs and "hardway" shots) and self-inflicted (like diving headbutts and similar moves). The WWE has taken some level of action by banning chairshots to the head, outlawing piledrivers outright, and limiting any move involves that hits the neck, head, etc.

It will happen that an NFL player -- perhaps a high profile one at Benoit's level -- will be brain damaged not too far after the end of his career. It may happen that a brain-damaged NFL player does something really regrettable during his career. It'll look really bad if it happens after the NFL has dragged on this issue.

[Shmee]

The people behind this are neurosurgeons.

I'm not impressed. Not like it's rocket science or anything.

[BBTV]

The people behind this are neurosurgeons.

A vast liberal cabal is more interesting though, you have to give him that.

The NFL should want to get out ahead of this. Back in 2007, the most respected pro wrestler in the world went and killed his wife and two children, and them himself. People called it roid rage, but really is was brain damage. The doctors who conducted the autopsy on Chris Benoit found that his brain had been turned to mush due to too many strikes to the head, including from others (like chairs and "hardway" shots) and self-inflicted (like diving headbutts and similar moves). The WWE has taken some level of action by banning chairshots to the head, outlawing piledrivers outright, and limiting any move involves that hits the neck, head, etc.

It will happen that an NFL player -- perhaps a high profile one at Benoit's level -- will be brain damaged not too far after the end of his career. It may happen that a brain-damaged NFL player does something really regrettable during his career. It'll look really bad if it happens after the NFL has dragged on this issue.

While not necessarily "high profile" (though it could be argued that he was for a brief period in the early '90s, and he was one of my favorite players so that makes him high profile to me at least), doctors believe that Andre Waters' suicide (more specifically the depression that caused it) was due to the concussions he suffered in the NFL. His brain tissue had degenerated severely, and they believe that he would have been essentially a vegetable eventually.

There are a few articles that have come out recently (not posted here) that actually say that Waters had that CTE.

Anyone who thinks that "they know the risks" and "this is what they sign on for" and "the league is getting soft" is a complete idiot. Actually, they're worst than that, but that's all I can come up with right now.

Retirement and death After retiring as a player, Waters went on to enjoy success as a college coach at Morgan State University, the University of South Florida, Alabama State University, St. Augustine's College, and Fort Valley State University. He tried unsuccessfully to get a job in the NFL and described his disappointment to a Philadelphia Inquirer reporter in April 2006.^[1] He remained very close to his former Eagles coach Buddy Ryan, who he said he tried to emulate in his own coaching career.

Waters committed suicide shortly after 1 a.m. on November 20, 2006, according to the Hillsborough County (Fla.) Sheriff's Office, dying of a gunshot to the head. He was at his home in Tampa, Florida^[2] where he was found by his girlfriend. No suicide note was found.

Shortly after Waters' death, former Harvard defensive tackle and WWE wrestler Christopher Nowinski, whose wrestling career was ended by post-concussion syndrome and has since written a book about the dangers of concussions in contact sports, approached Waters' family and asked permission to have his brain tissue examined. After receiving permission, Nowinski had samples of Waters' brain tissue sent to neuropathologist Dr. Bennet Omalu at the University of Pittsburgh. Omalu believed, having examined the tissue, that Waters sustained brain damage from playing football: he went on to state that this led to Waters' depression.^[3]

Dr. Omalu determined that Waters' brain tissue had degenerated into that of an 85-year-old man with similar characteristics to those of early-stage Alzheimer's victims. Omalu said he believed that the damage was caused and/or hastened by the numerous concussions Waters sustained playing football. Additionally Omalu said that Waters would have been fully incapacitated within ten years.

The NFL declined to comment on Waters' case specifically. A member of the league's mild traumatic brain injury committee, Dr. Andrew Tucker, said that the NFL was beginning a study of retired players in 2006 to examine the more general issue of football concussions and subsequent depression

Also here's an ESPN story.

http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=2734941

[Coast2CoastAM2006]

um how does trying to protect a players health equate out to 'making america weaker?'

and here i thought being subjected to High School Musical was what was making america weaker.

[DEAD!]

um how does trying to protect a players health equate out to 'making america weaker?'

and here i thought being subjected to High School Musical was what was making america weaker.

well, it least it made JH42XCC wanker...