"Washington Federals" (Now Redskins name discussion)

[NatsFan2004]

A few points:

1.) If you change the Redskin name, you might as well fold the team. I'm 100% serious about this. You'd be flushing 85 years of history down the drain in the name of political correctness. People support the Redskins, not the Potomacs, not the Warriors. It's our identity, and if you take our identity and history away, it might as well be an expansion team.

2.) I've noticed that the people who yell and scream about the Redskins name are often middle-class white people taking offense on behalf of Native Americans. As already mentioned earlier in the thread, a vast majority of American Indians don't see it that way, and are fine with the name. So who are these WHITE people to take offense on behalf of Native Americans? It sounds like typical racism from whites to me - the opinion of the white man automatically supplants the opinion of the brown man because he says so. (This coming from a brown man, by the way.)

3.) The word "Redskin" has virtually no meaning as a slur today because it isn't used AT ALL. BY ANYONE. I think the last time anyone was called a Redskin in a derogatory manner had to have been sometime in the late 1800s. The power of a word comes from actual usage. For example, if I called someone a "yellow-bellied nancy" in the old west, I'd likely be shot dead. Today, that phrase sounds just plain...wimpy. Time changes language (except, perhaps, for people who are stuck in the past).

4.) If you're going to force the change of the Redskins name, you have to also be in favor of changing the New York Yankees name, which is also a derogatory slur. (And no one really calls people Yankees in a derogatory way anymore, unless they're like 80 years old)

[JohnnySeoul]

4.) If you're going to force the change of the Redskins name, you have to also be in favor of changing the New York Yankees name, which is also a derogatory slur. (And no one really calls people Yankees in a derogatory way anymore, unless they're like 80 years old)

Actually Yankee (or Yank for short) is a derogatory word still used by most European countries (mostly the Brits) to describe an American.

[IceCap]

A few points:

1.) If you change the Redskin name, you might as well fold the team. I'm 100% serious about this. You'd be flushing 85 years of history down the drain in the name of political correctness. People support the Redskins, not the Potomacs, not the Warriors. It's our identity, and if you take our identity and history away, it might as well be an expansion team.

It's not your identity. It's the identity of a professional football organization you choose to root for out of what is essentially geographic convenience. If the Redskins name was done away with people would be pissed, but I seriously doubt the football crazy fans of the greater DC area would stop supporting the team. They'd moan about it, but they would still be fans. I don't see any fanbase giving up on a team entirely due to a name change.

You may complain about it, but I have no doubt that you'll eventually return and begrudgingly accept the Washington Warriors or Potomacs. A few generations later? The name change in entrenched.

2.) I've noticed that the people who yell and scream about the Redskins name are often middle-class white people taking offense on behalf of Native Americans. As already mentioned earlier in the thread, a vast majority of American Indians don't see it that way, and are fine with the name. So who are these WHITE people to take offense on behalf of Native Americans? It sounds like typical racism from whites to me - the opinion of the white man automatically supplants the opinion of the brown man because he says so. (This coming from a brown man, by the way.)

One doesn't have to be an expert in Native affairs (or Indian affairs as the Canadian government still calls them) to realize that the native community in North America has a lot on their plate. I would say it's possible that many say they don't care about the name Redskins because that ranks so low on their list of priorities at the moment.

At the end of the day my objection to the name is that it is simply a racial slur, one used for centuries to demean an ethnic minority. It's no different from n*gger, kike, chink, etc.... Which makes it unsuitable as a name for a professional sports franchise in the 21st century. The fact that the term redskin is still used as a slur in certain circles just furthers my point.

3.) The word "Redskin" has virtually no meaning as a slur today because it isn't used AT ALL. BY ANYONE. I think the last time anyone was called a Redskin in a derogatory manner had to have been sometime in the late 1800s. The power of a word comes from actual usage. For example, if I called someone a "yellow-bellied nancy" in the old west, I'd likely be shot dead. Today, that phrase sounds just plain...wimpy. Time changes language (except, perhaps, for people who are stuck in the past).

Bull. S*it. The term is still derogatory.

4.) If you're going to force the change of the Redskins name, you have to also be in favor of changing the New York Yankees name, which is also a derogatory slur. (And no one really calls people Yankees in a derogatory way anymore, unless they're like 80 years old)

This just proves you really don't know what you're talking about. The word Yankee is used as a derogatory term by southerns. Not just old timers nostalgic for the Confederacy.

That being said, despite that, there's a difference between Yankee and Redskin. Yankee is just like Brit or Canuck. A nickname to describe a nationality. Within the US it only became synonymous with "northerner" during the Civil War (because the Confederates were fighting the US government, Yankees). These national nicknames themselves are relatively harmless, only really taking on negative qualities in the context, which is entirely conditional. When the US has a relatively positive image world wide Yankee isn't as derogatory a term as it is when the US is invading middle eastern countries.

Terms like redskin, n*gger, kike, and chink, on the other hand, are meant to degrade and offend first and foremost. The ONLY condition in which redskin is even somewhat acceptable is when discussing the pro sports team. Any other time it's brought up? It's meant as a slur directed toward Natives.

If the term had completely lost its racial implications, that would be one thing. The fact is, however, that it hasn't. The team using a depiction of a native as its logo is still more then enough evidence that the term still has racial connotations.

People were praising the hammer and sickle in another thread. Couldn't get in on that one.

From a purely vexillological stand point it is rather nice. The CCCP can go screw itself though.

Which just furthers the case against Wahoo. Is it instantly recognizable? Yep. Does that make it acceptable? Nope.

[JQK]

Ahhh... another "Washington" thread that has once again devolved into "REDSKINS IS RACIST!" "NO IT ISN'T!"

Le sigh...

[DC in Da House w/o a Doubt]

A few points:

1.) If you change the Redskin name, you might as well fold the team. I'm 100% serious about this. You'd be flushing 85 years of history down the drain in the name of political correctness. People support the Redskins, not the Potomacs, not the Warriors. It's our identity, and if you take our identity and history away, it might as well be an expansion team.

2.) I've noticed that the people who yell and scream about the Redskins name are often middle-class white people taking offense on behalf of Native Americans. As already mentioned earlier in the thread, a vast majority of American Indians don't see it that way, and are fine with the name. So who are these WHITE people to take offense on behalf of Native Americans? It sounds like typical racism from whites to me - the opinion of the white man automatically supplants the opinion of the brown man because he says so. (This coming from a brown man, by the way.)

3.) The word "Redskin" has virtually no meaning as a slur today because it isn't used AT ALL. BY ANYONE. I think the last time anyone was called a Redskin in a derogatory manner had to have been sometime in the late 1800s. The power of a word comes from actual usage. For example, if I called someone a "yellow-bellied nancy" in the old west, I'd likely be shot dead. Today, that phrase sounds just plain...wimpy. Time changes language (except, perhaps, for people who are stuck in the past).

4.) If you're going to force the change of the Redskins name, you have to also be in favor of changing the New York Yankees name, which is also a derogatory slur. (And no one really calls people Yankees in a derogatory way anymore, unless they're like 80 years old)

Applause.

Leave it to a guy with the name NatsFan to just take everyone to school. Well done.

[JohnnySeoul]

People were praising the hammer and sickle in another thread. Couldn't get in on that one.

From a purely vexillological stand point it is rather nice. The CCCP can go screw itself though.

Which just furthers the case against Wahoo. Is it instantly recognizable? Yep. Does that make it acceptable? Nope.

Now now...Cheif Wahoo will ALWAYS be acceptable.

[dgnmrwrw]

I'm not going to copy the entire, well-written, well-thought-out post in my reply, but

+1 to Ice_Cap's last post.

Whether or not the name is old (or new) has nothing to to with it being racist and offensive. Whether or not the name has great success (or zip) behind it has nothing to to with it being racist and offensive. Whether or not the name is loved and adored by certain fans (or hated by others) has nothing to to with it being racist and offensive. Whether or not the peoples the name is slurring are vocally upset (or aren't) about the name has nothing to to with it being racist and offensive. It's offensive because it's a prejudicial, demeaning, inaccurate, outdated, vulgar term used to lower one group of people in the eyes of another.

And let's be clear. One needn't be Native American to be offended by it. We "middle-class white people" who find Redskins offensive aren't taking offense "on behalf of Native Americans". We have the right and ability to be offended (and embarrassed) by such a word. I was born in North Carolina, in an old tobacco plantation area. Half of my high school was white, half black, and a large number of those black students shared one of four or five last names, even though they weren't related. Those were slave names, given from slave-owning families to their "property." My community was always racially tense, due in large part to hundreds of years of bigotry. So even though I'm not black, I do find n*gger offensive, because I know what it has been and continues to be used to do.

I'd be fine if the Redskins ever chose to change their name. Deep down, I don't really care if they never do. The nickname of a group of men who play a game for a living simply isn't that high on the list of important things. I'm certainly not up-in-arms about the issue, signing petitions, boycotting, or anything like that. But let's not pretend that Redskin--or for that matter, n*gger, darkie, kike, chink, slant-eye, et c. ad infinitum--isn't racist and offensive.

[Evil Doctor]

4.) If you're going to force the change of the Redskins name, you have to also be in favor of changing the New York Yankees name, which is also a derogatory slur. (And no one really calls people Yankees in a derogatory way anymore, unless they're like 80 years old)

My brother-in-law a couple of years ago had a business meeting somewhere in the US South with a local guy and another fellow from one of the northern US states. The Southerner went on a rant about "yankees". "Damn yankees this...damn yankees that" that sort of thing. The Northerner was biting his tongue but my brother-in-law could tell from his face he wasn't enjoying it. So my brother-in-law pipes up "You know, from where I am, you are all yankees." The Southerner gave my brother-in-law quite scowl, while the Northerner face brightened and gave the broadest smile.

True story...

[Buster]

4.) If you're going to force the change of the Redskins name, you have to also be in favor of changing the New York Yankees name, which is also a derogatory slur. (And no one really calls people Yankees in a derogatory way anymore, unless they're like 80 years old)

Actually Yankee (or Yank for short) is a derogatory word still used by most European countries (mostly the Brits) to describe an American.

Europe and Alabama.

100% correct about destroying the franchise with a team name. The Redskins have a ton of history and tradition, and a classic identity. It would be the same impact as changing the Packers name to because a factory closed, or changing the Chicago Bears because "polar bears are offended".

[IceCap]

The Redskins have a ton of history and tradition, and a classic identity. It would be the same impact as changing the Packers name to because a factory closed, or changing the Chicago Bears because "polar bears are offended".

Polar bears aren't human beings.

[Buster]

Polar bears aren't human beings.

You're right, we're supposed to hold their lives as more valuable than humans...according to some.

[Gothamite]

Polar bears aren't human beings.

You're right, we're supposed to hold their lives as more valuable than humans...according to some.

Bizarre non-sequiturs are a sure sign that you know you've lost the argument.

[JohnnySeoul]

Polar bears aren't human beings.

But they do have feelings and are phasing out of existence

[DeFrank]

I really mean this,

Natsfan is completely right. After all the disappointments and failures our team has had for the last 19 years, THE ONLY THING WE HAVE IS HISTORY. If that's taken away, were just a crappy generic team that has no future and no hope. It would mean the end of my love for football. All my posters, jerseys, banners, hats, concepts, shirts, CHILDHOOD would be morphed to revert language back to a primitive form. Federals sucks. The name can't change.

[DC in Da House w/o a Doubt]

I really mean this,

Natsfan is completely right. After all the disappointments and failures our team has had for the last 19 years, THE ONLY THING WE HAVE IS HISTORY. If that's taken away, were just a crappy generic team that has no future and no hope. It would mean the end of my love for football. All my posters, jerseys, banners, hats, concepts, shirts, CHILDHOOD would be morphed to revert language back to a primitive form. Federals sucks. The name can't change.

Agreed. And it won't change.

[loogodude90]

A true Redskins fan would stick with the team despite a name change. You root for the team because you support the team, not just because you like their name. Rooting for a team specifically based on the team's name or even logo/colors/jerseys/identity is what little kids and people who don't know anything about sports do.

For a similar local example, take the Wizards. True Wizards fans like myself do not dissociate the Wizards from the Bullets. It's the same team, same franchise, and same history, but it just happened to undergo a purely cosmetic makeover. Whether you agree with a name change or not, you'll stick with them if you are really a fan of theirs.

[IceCap]

A true Redskins fan would stick with the team despite a name change.

This.

Besides, if they went with Warriors or Potomacs the overall identity would likely remain unchanged. The current logo would work very well with both of those options. It would be no different from when they switched from Braves to Redskins. Different name, same overall identity.

[CS85]

I was trying to come up with a clever play on words with 'redskin,' 'relocate,' and 'reservation' but couldn't put it together. *sigh*

In other news, natsfan's post was very well done. Kudos.

[ram29jackson]

the Redskins already won a court battle with what ever dumb small interest group tried to

start something again. North Dakota ( or was it South ) won a court battle as well.

I love Indian team names and theres plenty of native Indians who wear Redskins and Chiefs t shirts etc.

Marquette, St Johns, Rutgers were fools to give in to this politically correct crap.

I am sure Syracuse Orangemen is an Indian reference as well.....?

[JohnnySeoul]

I am sure Syracuse Orangemen is an Indian reference as well.....?

In German it means a whale's vagina