2011-12 European football thread

[Saintsfan]

I certainly don't think Wenger will be fired any time soon, but I do think the team won't move forward until they move on from Wenger now.

I compare Wenger to Alex Ferguson at United. Ferguson has been amazingly effective at rebuilding United teams over the years both using the transfer Market and by bringing players through the United system. Wenger seems to want to spend money in order to have players come through the Arsenal system. That's high risk investment.

[Viper]

Arsenal spent I think 12 million pounds on Alex Oxlade-Chamberlain, an entirely untried teenage prospect whose only first team experience came in league 1. They haven't been building a team on the cheap. They have had plenty of investment from Kroenke and Usmanov. Finance is no excuse for the state they find themselves in.

Bingo. They have plenty of money, there's no reason why they shouldn't after all these years of Top 4 & Champions League football that they've played. It's just the fact that spending on, like you said, unknown hot prospects has finally caught up with Wenger. It's one thing to build for the future, but you have to spend that money on established talent as well. That being said, I don't think he's gonna get "sacked in the morning." I think if they go one more season w/o a trophy, Wenger is donezo at Highbury.

Emirates being located at Ashburton Grove, Wenger's already been "donezo" at Highbury (now home to an upscale condo complex, IIRC) for five years now.

Anyhoo, both of you missed my point. I actually agree with Saintsfan that emphasizing youth development is a poor model for a club aspiring to be among the world's elite, just for a different reason. Namely, that it no longer makes sense to do so in an environment where the players you've invested so much to develop can be so easily lured away by rival clubs with the capacity to outspend you by tens or even hundreds of millions of pounds without batting an eye. And make no mistake, the club's own finances aren't the only factor in that capacity; all that money Arsenal's made as a CL contender is chump change next to Sheikh Mansour's personal wealth (almost £23KM). Hell, even Kroenke's and Usmanov's own combined personal wealth (around £12KM) isn't even close to Mansour's, and keep in mind that Kroenke has several other pro sports franchises to run in addition to Arsenal.

Even if Oxlade-Chamberlain eventually develops into an elite forward or attacking middie, that will just make him one more target for the Mansours of the world with the ability to throw amounts of money that would make Jerry Jones blush and George Steinbrenner turn in his grave. That's why Wenger's way no longer works, at least not for a club with any aspirations higher than becoming a glorified finishing school for the uber-wealthy clubs.

[Viper]

The Prem, of course, isn't the only circuit where the dominance of a few uber-wealthy clubs is a source of consternation for the rest of the league. In fact at least one La Liga side is warning of outright disaster unless something changes soon:

Villarreal president Fernando Roig has called for changes to football in Spain so that it does not become a two-team show between Real Madrid and Barcelona.

<snip>

If you want the league to have only two matches, then there will only be two matches, but this is not good for football. I give it three to four years. Either this changes or we kill Spanish football.

[Don]

Did he say that before or after getting pwned 5-0 by Barcelona?

[NEW.ERA]

It's true.

Maybe i'm just saying this because I support a team that doesn't spend much, but after seeing what Andy Carroll got for leaving, the money that big clubs spend is downright disgusting and half the time said player sits on the bench making a ton of money, just to win a trophy, when they could be helping a lesser like get success. I'd love to see a change, but I highly doubt it will happen. God forbid anyone ever upset Man U, Chelsea, Barca, and Real Madrid.

[Don]

I would agree as well. As big of a Barcelona fan as I am, I would love to see some competition besides Real Madrid. Villareal is a Champions League side that just got crushed by Barcelona 5-0. Barcelonas Academy is 2nd to none in Spain and in Europe and they can afford to keep these grads of La Masia which makes it better for them.

[Breakwood]

The Prem, of course, isn't the only circuit where the dominance of a few uber-wealthy clubs is a source of consternation for the rest of the league. In fact at least one La Liga side is warning of outright disaster unless something changes soon:

Villarreal president Fernando Roig has called for changes to football in Spain so that it does not become a two-team show between Real Madrid and Barcelona.

<snip>

If you want the league to have only two matches, then there will only be two matches, but this is not good for football. I give it three to four years. Either this changes or we kill Spanish football.

And this is why MLS is as good as any other league on the planet. The talent level may not be as high, but it's good quality, and any given club can give on any given day. Yes even Toronto.

[Saintsfan]

Most European leagues have had a few teams that dominate, usually based on finance forva long time. Spain is a good example, as it happens. Real and Barca have dominated for a long time. Madrid, ironically given there name, through the patronage of the Franco regime. But it's a new thing for English footie to cope with. Even dominant teams in the past (Liverpool in the 70s and 80s for instance) haven't done so on the back of huge transfers. It's only in the last 20 years that money has become a dominant factor.

[WJMorris3]

I'm curious, then, to see what effect the financial fair play rules will show.

[Saintsfan]

I'm curious, then, to see what effect the financial fair play rules will show.

In general, not so much difference, I would say. I think the history and tradition of the marquee clubs is a factor as well. (The Yankees, Cardinals and Red Sox don't stay succesful just because of money! I don't think you'll get too many clubs with Just new money challenging.

[Viper]

Forward Park Chu-Young, backliners Per Mertesacker and Andre Santos, and now playmaking middie Mikel Arteta, all brought to Emirates in the past 48 hours or so. And with the international break this weekend, Arsène Wenger will have over a week to get them adjusted and prepared for Swansea on the 10th.

I guess when Wenger does finally get it in his head to make it rain, he makes it pour.

[NEW.ERA]

Well Pardew failed to get his Forward he wanted so we're stuck with Ba, Amoeobi and Best leading the way till January, but he did manage to sign young defender Davide Santon away from Inter, so I'm happy with that.

[Viper]

Forward Park Chu-Young, backliners Per Mertesacker and Andre Santos, and now playmaking middie Mikel Arteta, all brought to Emirates in the past 48 hours or so. And with the international break this weekend, Arsène Wenger will have over a week to get them adjusted and prepared for Swansea on the 10th.

I guess when Wenger does finally get it in his head to make it rain, he makes it pour.

And now Yossi Benayoun is a Gunner as well.

[crashcarson15]

Honestly happy with what Villa did over this window. Hutton should really fill the void at right back, and Jenas is the midfielder Villa were looking for.

[Saintsfan]

Forward Park Chu-Young, backliners Per Mertesacker and Andre Santos, and now playmaking middie Mikel Arteta, all brought to Emirates in the past 48 hours or so. And with the international break this weekend, Arsène Wenger will have over a week to get them adjusted and prepared for Swansea on the 10th.

I guess when Wenger does finally get it in his head to make it rain, he makes it pour.

I can't help thinking Arsenal's moves are a bit panic buying. Some good players, but I don't feel there is a grand plan behind them.

[capitalcanuck]

i know its early but does anyone think wolverhampton is for real with wins versus fulham(respectable), Blackburn(ok,but expected) and a draw with Aston Villa but 1 goal allowed are they for real I expect mid pack 13-9 range

want to get your thoughts

[crashcarson15]

Eh, I'm not too sure Wolves are for real, honestly. They got outplayed by a large margin during the second half against Villa this past matchday and were lucky to escape with the draw.

[capitalcanuck]

my freind is a HUGE wolves fan he said "as long as they escape relagtion" but nxt they have tottanham(A) now thats a ?, then QPR(H), Liverpool(A) if they get 1 win maybe a draw or two they will escape the grasp of the npower championship

[Eye]

Forward Park Chu-Young, backliners Per Mertesacker and Andre Santos, and now playmaking middie Mikel Arteta, all brought to Emirates in the past 48 hours or so. And with the international break this weekend, Arsène Wenger will have over a week to get them adjusted and prepared for Swansea on the 10th.

I guess when Wenger does finally get it in his head to make it rain, he makes it pour.

And now Yossi Benayoun is a Gunner as well.

I've been following soccer for a while now, but am a little confused on the transfer window logistics. So Benayoun is out on loan to Arsenal, but Chelsea couldn't dictate where he would go? And Chelsea got nothing in return?

[Viper]

Forward Park Chu-Young, backliners Per Mertesacker and Andre Santos, and now playmaking middie Mikel Arteta, all brought to Emirates in the past 48 hours or so. And with the international break this weekend, Arsène Wenger will have over a week to get them adjusted and prepared for Swansea on the 10th.

I guess when Wenger does finally get it in his head to make it rain, he makes it pour.

I can't help thinking Arsenal's moves are a bit panic buying. Some good players, but I don't feel there is a grand plan behind them.

Of course, Wenger didn't exactly have the pick of the litter to begin with, seeing that his hands were a bit tied for acquiring players as long as the Cesc and Nasri deals were pending.

On the other hand, as I've already mentioned Wenger supposedly already expects to being gone after this season, and if that's the case he and the club owners may have opted to save the real heavy lifting, and spending, for Wenger's eventual successor. (Indeed, I'm starting to suspect the only reason he stuck around even for this season was for the Champions' League, seeing that this will likely be Arsenal's last go-round there for awhile. I'd say we can start the Wenger resignation/sacking watch the moment the Gunners are knocked out of the CL.)