NHL Expansion?

[IceCap]

Yeah, sorry vman, you're clearly missing a key point in a successful "two teams, one market" formula. Distance between the two teams isn't necessarily a factor.

What is a factor is cultural subdivisions. Chicago gets away with two baseball teams because the north and south sides are culturally distinct. With New York the Yankees, Giants, Rangers, and Knicks appeal to Manhattan and the Bronx while the Mets, Jets, Islanders, and Nets appeal to Queens, Brooklyn, and Long Island. The Kings and Dodgers appeal to Los Angeles-proper while the Ducks and Angels appeal to Anaheim and the rest of Orange County.

With Toronto there's no culture in the northern suburbs that's really distinct from Toronto-proper or the rest of the GTA. There isn't a local geographic or cultural rivalry you can tap into there that you could in Chicago, New York, or LA. Further, you could extent that to the rest of southern Ontario. Yes you have your contrarians who won't root for the Leafs, but the majority of fans do, in fact, support them.

[GFB]

Yeah, sorry vman, you're clearly missing a key point in a successful "two teams, one market" formula. Distance between the two teams isn't necessarily a factor.

What is a factor is cultural subdivisions. Chicago gets away with two baseball teams because the north and south sides are culturally distinct. With New York the Yankees, Giants, Rangers, and Knicks appeal to Manhattan and the Bronx while the Mets, Jets, Islanders, and Nets appeal to Queens, Brooklyn, and Long Island. The Kings and Dodgers appeal to Los Angeles-proper while the Ducks and Angels appeal to Anaheim and the rest of Orange County.

With Toronto there's no culture in the northern suburbs that's really distinct from Toronto-proper or the rest of the GTA. There isn't a local geographic or cultural rivalry you can tap into there that you could in Chicago, New York, or LA. Further, you could extent that to the rest of southern Ontario. Yes you have your contrarians who won't root for the Leafs, but the majority of fans do, in fact, support them.

So, your theory is that Canadians who live in the same general area are too nice to support a competing hockey team?

[Whittier S]

Expansion? Are they insane?

Indeed, esp right after the mess they just got out of.

[IceCap]

Yeah, sorry vman, you're clearly missing a key point in a successful "two teams, one market" formula. Distance between the two teams isn't necessarily a factor.

What is a factor is cultural subdivisions. Chicago gets away with two baseball teams because the north and south sides are culturally distinct. With New York the Yankees, Giants, Rangers, and Knicks appeal to Manhattan and the Bronx while the Mets, Jets, Islanders, and Nets appeal to Queens, Brooklyn, and Long Island. The Kings and Dodgers appeal to Los Angeles-proper while the Ducks and Angels appeal to Anaheim and the rest of Orange County.

With Toronto there's no culture in the northern suburbs that's really distinct from Toronto-proper or the rest of the GTA. There isn't a local geographic or cultural rivalry you can tap into there that you could in Chicago, New York, or LA. Further, you could extent that to the rest of southern Ontario. Yes you have your contrarians who won't root for the Leafs, but the majority of fans do, in fact, support them.

So, your theory is that Canadians who live in the same general area are too nice to support a competing hockey team?

Um, no. Not at all. Just that there's no real regional rivalries within the GTA that a second team could tap into, like the north side/south side rivalry the White Sox and Cubs tap into in baseball.

[GFB]

Yeah, sorry vman, you're clearly missing a key point in a successful "two teams, one market" formula. Distance between the two teams isn't necessarily a factor.

What is a factor is cultural subdivisions. Chicago gets away with two baseball teams because the north and south sides are culturally distinct. With New York the Yankees, Giants, Rangers, and Knicks appeal to Manhattan and the Bronx while the Mets, Jets, Islanders, and Nets appeal to Queens, Brooklyn, and Long Island. The Kings and Dodgers appeal to Los Angeles-proper while the Ducks and Angels appeal to Anaheim and the rest of Orange County.

With Toronto there's no culture in the northern suburbs that's really distinct from Toronto-proper or the rest of the GTA. There isn't a local geographic or cultural rivalry you can tap into there that you could in Chicago, New York, or LA. Further, you could extent that to the rest of southern Ontario. Yes you have your contrarians who won't root for the Leafs, but the majority of fans do, in fact, support them.

So, your theory is that Canadians who live in the same general area are too nice to support a competing hockey team?

Um, no. Not at all. Just that there's no real regional rivalries within the GTA that a second team could tap into, like the north side/south side rivalry the White Sox and Cubs tap into in baseball.

Sorry, that was mostly sarcasm that only I found funny. I understood your point.

[tigerslionspistonshabs]

I'm all for more Canadian teams, but I don't think a second team in the GTA will work. People will attend the games just because it's the NHL and much, much easier to access for any of the burbs than the ACC. But as far as fans, the Leafs have a stronghold on all of the GTA, Hamilton, Kitchener-Waterloo and London. You may have the odd Wings and Habs fans, but hell, even half of Ottawa is still Maple Leafs fans and they've been in the league 20 years.

Edit- I just had a thought in my head. This would kind of be like the Lakers and Clippers. The Lakers are the clear cut favorite in L.A., and were around being competitive and winning titles for a couple decades before the Clippers came around. But based on probably the population and like-ness of basketball in general in Los Angeles, they remained supported, despite being the worst team in the league for 25 years.

And- they play in the same arena. I think if there was a geographic spread like the Leafs-new team would have, it may make it easier. It will take some time, but gate revenue alone will keep them afloat until a fanbase is built. Plus, chances are they'll win a cup before the Leafs do.

[Tygers09]

I'm new to hockey branding discussions but I think a red Toronto team would contrast beautifully with the Leafs. The only challenge would be to keep it from encroaching too much on the Blackhawks or Red Wings identities.

As for the overall expansion idea, that may eventually find itself intertwined with the new Seattle arena deal since they are supposedly trying to woo an NHL franchise to the Emerald City.

Lot's of reports the Coyotes will end up in Seattle.

I know people in eastern Canada will complain, but they will have a new arena ready the fastest, and contrary against most popular beliefs in Eastern Canada, Seattle IS a traditional hockey market. They have had constant forms of pro and minor league hockey since the 1910's. That pre dates teams in: Calgary, Edmonton Winnipeg, and Saskatoon. Not to mention Seattle has a solid core of Canucks fans.

Next team to move (after the yotes) will prob be Florida. I also think the NHL will give Columbus another 10 years with that team at least.

If Seattle has a core of Canucks fans, and it's so close to Vancouver, then IMHO Portland would be the next likely choice...

[IceCap]

Sorry, that was mostly sarcasm that only I found funny. I understood your point.

Gah. My mistake. That's what happens when I post at 4 in the morning.

[joechicago]

Re: Chicago

There's no more difference between the north and south side of Chicago than there is in any other major city. The differences get overblown because there's two different baseball teams that try to form their fan identities. But I would argue the perceived cultural differences are more a product of the city's development independent of baseball (and after its arrival) and the fact that they developed in two distinct leagues.

In fact, the only reason the White Sox are where they are is because the the Cubs owner at the time demanded that they play south of 35th St. Otherwise, the Sox probably would have been close to downtown or on the near west side (where the Hawks/Bulls play). Comiskey wasn't trying to go after a different demographic, he and the American League just wanted a team in the No. 2 metro area in the country. Up until the 70s or so, the majority of both groups' fanbases was made up of blue-collar/middle class mostly-white Democrats.

What differences there were became accented in the 70s and on. The big blue-collar factories on the south side closed one after the other, the white population left, and suddenly Comiskey Park was surrounded by the Projects and its fanbase had moved to Naperville and Westmont and Schaumberg. Meanwhile, a major media company bought the Cubs and put them on national television while America developed a white collar culture that found it chic to go to the bars around Wrigley and make baseball a good way to spend disposable income. And the two teams didn't even play each other for some 90 years in a meaningful game, so it's not like anyone stressed the differences between them.

And those differences aren't sewn into the fabric of the city or the teams' identities. As a case in point, the White Sox almost built their stadium either downtown or in the suburbs back when Comiskey II/Cellular Field was built.

I don't know enough about Toronto culture, but it's far from a requirement for a place to have distinct "cultures" when you slap the team there. Cultures can develop, and I suspect if you put another team in Toronto, you'd see them take on a new identity, much as the Mets or Oakland Raiders have.

[JackieMoon]

If the deal goes through to where the Sacramento Kings move to Seattle, then an expansion/relocation to Seattle for the NHL would be doomed from the start. I am not saying the NBA is better than NHL (I hate basketball). But, Seattle has a stronger connection to basketball. Even Portland would probably be a bad choice where they have the Trailblazers. If any city should receive a NHL Expansion it should be Quebec City first and foremost. After that, I think the NHL should look into Halifax or Saskatchewan. Kansas City could be a possible choice too. Since they have no other winter sport it could work. But in all reality, there should be NO expansion in the NHL for years to come. They need to focus on catering to the fans and turning around dead-weight teams first aka Phoenix.

[Gothamite]

With New York the Yankees, Giants, Rangers, and Knicks appeal to Manhattan and the Bronx while the Mets, Jets, Islanders, and Nets appeal to Queens, Brooklyn, and Long Island.

You know, I'm not sure I agree with that.

I think the differences are more cultural than geographic. There's a certain geographic overlap, but I'm not sure that's the whole story. The Giants and Yankees used to share a stadium, as did the Mets and Jets, but that was decades ago in both cases. People who have moved to NY or otherwise adopted the teams since the 1980s have done so for a different reason.

The Yankees and Giants tend to share fanbases because they're the establishment teams with a long history to the early days of their respective sports and have a similarly long tradition of winning. They're elegant, stately, Brahmin. The Mets and Jets appeal to a different culture, the scrappy outsider who thumbs his nose at elites and does things his own way. Winning not dirty, maybe, but rough.

Is there an analogous situation in the GTA? Do the outer cities feel forever in Toronto's shadow, to the point where they'd root against anything Toronto given a team of their own to oppose them?

[illwauk]

Re: Chicago

There's no more difference between the north and south side of Chicago than there is in any other major city. The differences get overblown because there's two different baseball teams that try to form their fan identities. But I would argue the perceived cultural differences are more a product of the city's development independent of baseball (and after its arrival) and the fact that they developed in two distinct leagues.

So... just like they always were?

[The_Admiral]

Is there an analogous situation in the GTA? Do the outer cities feel forever in Toronto's shadow, to the point where they'd root against anything Toronto given a team of their own to oppose them?

The obvious one is Hamilton, if we're considering it part of the GTA. Mississauga thinks it's a big deal, but I don't know if they'd take it all the way to not liking the Leafs.

[IceCap]

Is there an analogous situation in the GTA? Do the outer cities feel forever in Toronto's shadow, to the point where they'd root against anything Toronto given a team of their own to oppose them?

The obvious one is Hamilton, if we're considering it part of the GTA. Mississauga thinks it's a big deal, but I don't know if they'd take it all the way to not liking the Leafs.

Hamilton is the closest you'll get to a city in its own right that's also part of the GTA and feels like they're in Toronto's shadow. Mississauga's firmly a Toronto suburb though. I mean just take a look at what their new CHL team decided to wear. Blue and white uniforms with blue and white maple leaves everywhere. It's Leafs country.

[youcan'tseeme]

How about Elliotte Friedman tonight telling us there won't be a second Toronto team next year... Where does CBC get this guy, nobody has been saying there would be a second Toronto team, it's all expansion talk. Expansion talk which I believe he had a hand in starting.

[BigBubba]

Is there an analogous situation in the GTA? Do the outer cities feel forever in Toronto's shadow, to the point where they'd root against anything Toronto given a team of their own to oppose them?

The obvious one is Hamilton, if we're considering it part of the GTA. Mississauga thinks it's a big deal, but I don't know if they'd take it all the way to not liking the Leafs.

Hamilton is the closest you'll get to a city in its own right that's also part of the GTA and feels like they're in Toronto's shadow. Mississauga's firmly a Toronto suburb though. I mean just take a look at what their new CHL team decided to wear. Blue and white uniforms with blue and white maple leaves everywhere. It's Leafs country.

Vaughn had that whole "The City Above Toronto" thing going a while ago (80s or 90s I think), but they've since dropped that. They're the fastest-growing municipality in the country, and the people running it seem to think that they're a distinct city overshadowed by Toronto, but pretty much nobody living in Vaughan/Markham (or the rest of the GTA, for that matter) really cares. All my friends are Leafs/Blue Jays/Raptors kinds of people, and just consider where they live to be an extension of Toronto, which is really what the GTA is.

[The_Admiral]

The Yankees and Giants tend to share fanbases because they're the establishment teams with a long history to the early days of their respective sports and have a similarly long tradition of winning. They're elegant, stately, Brahmin.

The Brahmin Elegance of Bill Parcells will slot in nicely on my Imaginary Bookshelf.

[Gothamite]

Hey, even Brahmin men can hire uncouth employees from time to time.

Hell, that description doesn't fit Big Stein, either. But I think it works for the franchises.

[The_Admiral]

I'll give you the Yankees without a doubt, but assigning concepts like elegance and gentility to a sport that consists of loosely structured brutality is ultimately pretty dodgy. I'm sure Wellington Mara was a capital-letters Good Man relative to the usual gutter impresarios that have made up professional sports, but I've never thought to give the New York Giants--or the Steelers, Bears, Packers, 49ers, or any NFL team--any sort of moral or cultural high ground over the rest of the league just because they've been around a long time and play games in/around a really wealthy city. Yeah, they tend to share a fanbase with the Yankees because they're the teams that have been around a lot and won a lot (though I'm pretty sure the Giants just fell off a freaking cliff for like 25 years), but I wouldn't cite their stately elegance as part of it.

Incidentally, I find myself sympathizing with the New York B-teams, especially the Isles, for their scrappy outsider chic or however you put it, and I'd be an Jets/Mets fan if I had grown up there instead, but I would defenestrate myself before I ever rooted for the White Sox. How weird.

Anyway, Maple Leafs territory is too crystallized in 2013 for another team to horn in, and the only reason people want a team in Hamilton or North York is so they can have a backup plan when the Leafs suck or games are sold out (or, in the case of the last eight years, both). No one was whining for Southern Ontario to have a team of its own when the Leafs were competitive. This is just the work of loud spoiled brats in the GTA -- wait till they inevitably start whining that they can too support another team because of how much totally bitchin' disposable income there is around Kitchener. One Vancouver Canucks is enough, thank you.

[illwauk]

I don't have a stake in Hamilton getting a team one way or the other, but if the NHL insists on wedging another team into the GTA, Hamilton is the only logical place for it.