2016 NHL Off-Season Thread

[IceCap]

1 hour ago, Kramerica Industries said:

Well, he opted to stay with the team that drafted him, who he's played his entire 8-year career with, and is built for success right now instead of still being a few years away, but, sure, I guess that's one way to both attack his character and attack the team's market as well, sure.

Look Kramerica, I like you as a poster. You're easily one of my favourites when it comes to hockey and baseball commentary. So please don't take this personally...

 

His character...he has no character. That's not to say I think he's gutless, or cowardly, or craven or anything like that. Those would be characteristics. When I say he has no character I mean it literally. He has no character. He's the epitome of the 21st century Canadian-born NHLer. Talented, but afraid of actually being expected to succeed. Not a shred of personality. Leadership in only the sense that he's a good hockey player so why not make him the captain? Humble to the point that the Amish would tell him to lighten the up.

 

And if you want to talk about markets...

 

1 hour ago, Kramerica Industries said:

I know that getting the hometown kid was something that the Toronto media was howling about for the last calendar year...

Look. That eye rolling emoticon was used because this Sunbelt thin-skinned double standard nonsense has gotten nauseating. Toronto wants a hometown all-star to hopefully lead the team back to the promised land? Oh it's just them howling. Those arrogant, entitled Canadians...

Yet a fan from southern Ontario throws some shade Tampa's way and all of a sudden you get all bent out of shape about your market being "attack[ed]"? Sorry. Sunbelt fans can stop with the passive-aggressive nonsense every time someone says something less than flattering about them. Especially if they insist on insulting fans from cities where it snows.

 

Yes. I liked your earlier post. I liked it because it, like most of your NHL posts, are detailed, well-reasoned, and generally a pleasure to go through. And yes, you're right. Losing out on Stamkos isn't a huge blow to the Leafs' rebuilding plans.

That being said...

It's not a boon either. Stamkos is still an elite talent, and signing him has more upside than not.

The bigger issue, and why I posted the thing that got you to respond is that Stamkos is just another case of a Canadian-born player who would rather play somewhere where, and I'm being entirely honest here, hockey isn't as big a deal as it is back home. Look, I love my country, and I love hockey. So seeing Canada win gold medals at the Olympics is great. That being said? It would be great if these players actually cared about playing in Canada yearly as much as they say they love playing for Canada every four years.

Will the Leafs be fine without Stamkos? Yes. Is the cap space nice? Absolutely.

I'm still upset another Canadian kid has decided to shun a Canadian market because G-d forbid someone recognize him at the grocery store or the media ask him tough questions.

[Sodboy13]

I saw it mentioned that, given taxation rates, the Leafs would have to give Stamkos $12.3M AAV to equal $8.5M in Tampa. And the "Yeah, but look what your taxes get you" argument doesn't really apply when you're making borderline-eight figures.

 

As for it being more difficult for the league to market PK out of Nashville, uh, they weren't marketing him stateside while he was in Montréal one damned bit. I've seen an infinite amout more of wooden, second-tier Washington Capitals during NHL broadcasts than I have of one of the most electric defensemen in the game who also happens to be handsome, part of a hockey family, and by all accounts, a magnificent human being. If one Tuesday nighter in November gets teased on NBCSN as "PK Subban and the Nashville Predators..." that is an immediate 100% increase in U.S.-targeted league promotion of him.

[IceCap]

1 minute ago, Kaz said:

I get that it's frustrating for fans of Canadian teams to see Canadian stars sign almost exclusively with American teams, but you can't fault Stamkos at all here.

So you get that it's frustrating, but you're saying we shouldn't be frustrated. Gotcha.

Look, if Stamkos wanted to re-sign with Tampa for the reasons you mentioned that's fine. He could have done so back in January (when Tampa first made the offer) and saved everyone a lot of time.

[Davey]

4 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

So you get that it's frustrating, but you're saying we shouldn't be frustrated. Gotcha.

Look, if Stamkos wanted to re-sign with Tampa for the reasons you mentioned that's fine. He could have done so back in January (when Tampa first made the offer) and saved everyone a lot of time.

That was my first instant thought. The whole thing just seems bizarre. What he could of done like you mentioned in Jan to waiting 2 days before July 1st on what he already knew he wanted ? I'm so confused at this point lol. 

[twi]

1 minute ago, Davey said:

That was my first instant thought. The whole thing just seems bizarre. What he could of done like you mentioned in Jan to waiting 2 days before July 1st on what he already knew he wanted ? I'm so confused at this point lol. 

By doing it this way he got to hear the offers and sales pitches from other teams. A prudent thing to do when you're making a decision for the next 7-8 years of your life. 

 

 

8.5 AAV is just about the lowest realistic value that could have happened. Putting aside all the pure conjecture on the reasons behind where a player chooses to sign, I think the team is in a better spot today than yesterday. Still some big things to figure out, like how to handle the crowded crease with expansion coming and a new Hedman contract, but after this deal what isn't possible? 

[ldconcepts]

I'm one of the rare people that thinks this, but...

 

1. I like Michel Therrien as a coach.

2. I like P.K. Subban even more as a player.

3. Do I think the "friction" between them is icerplayed? Yes.

4. Am I okay with Therrien booted because of "friction" with Subban? Yes.

5. Am I okay with Subban being traded because of "friction" with Therrien? NO.

 

I like Weber, but not enough to give up P.K. for him.

[IceCap]

33 minutes ago, Kaz said:

No, what I am trying to get at is that while the overall trend of Canadian players spurning Canada is unfortunate, I don't see why Stamkos should be called characterless for resigning with the only team he has ever played with that also happens to be doing very well for itself.  He likely held out until now just in case another team decided to greatly overpay for him, and apparently it didn't happen.

Oh, he'd still be characterless if he'd signed with Toronto.

That's part of the problem, you see. We as a country have developed a hockey culture that purges personality from the best of the best, and instills in them the idea that to be proud of your talents and what you've accomplished is to be arrogant. So we produce these hockey players who are very skilled, but who don't want to play anywhere where they feel too much pressure to succeed. They don't want to be "the guy" who leads the Leafs to another Cup because if they're "the guy" on that team then they'd have to step up and take an active leadership role. In the locker room and in front of the media. And they've been conditioned most of their lives to view that sort of behaviour as bad. Something to avoid. So they sign in places where hockey isn't as big a deal as it is back home. 

 

And yeah. It is a trend that's "unfortunate," and yes, I am frustrated. Partly because this is a problem of our own making. We've hung on to traditional Canadian hockey values so tightly that we've created an entire generation of players who don't want to play here.

So Stamkos can sign with Tampa because he was two games away from the Cup two years ago, and that's great. They've got a solid team, and they'll probably contend for years to come.

Doesn't change the fact that I'm still upset the best Canadian hockey players in the world don't actually want to play hockey in Canada though. Doesn't change the fact that I'm now hoping the Lightning go Cup-less as long as he's there. 

 

The fact that Connor McDavid seemed to want the Leafs to win the draft lotto last year gives me hope that post-Stamkos generation will be less afraid of being recognized at a Toronto-area Loblaws. Maybe Canadian players will be excited to play in Canada again.

[Kramerica Industries]

1 hour ago, Ice_Cap said:

Look Kramerica, I like you as a poster. You're easily one of my favourites when it comes to hockey and baseball commentary. So please don't take this personally...

 

His character...he has no character. That's not to say I think he's gutless, or cowardly, or craven or anything like that. Those would be characteristics. When I say he has no character I mean it literally. He has no character. He's the epitome of the 21st century Canadian-born NHLer. Talented, but afraid of actually being expected to succeed. Not a shred of personality. Leadership in only the sense that he's a good hockey player so why not make him the captain? Humble to the point that the Amish would tell him to lighten the up.

 

And if you want to talk about markets...

 

Look. That eye rolling emoticon was used because this Sunbelt thin-skinned double standard nonsense has gotten nauseating. Toronto wants a hometown all-star to hopefully lead the team back to the promised land? Oh it's just them howling. Those arrogant, entitled Canadians...

Yet a fan from southern Ontario throws some shade Tampa's way and all of a sudden you get all bent out of shape about your market being "attack[ed]"? Sorry. Sunbelt fans can stop with the passive-aggressive nonsense every time someone says something less than flattering about them. Especially if they insist on insulting fans from cities where it snows.

 

Yes. I liked your earlier post. I liked it because it, like most of your NHL posts, are detailed, well-reasoned, and generally a pleasure to go through. And yes, you're right. Losing out on Stamkos isn't a huge blow to the Leafs' rebuilding plans.

That being said...

It's not a boon either. Stamkos is still an elite talent, and signing him has more upside than not.

The bigger issue, and why I posted the thing that got you to respond is that Stamkos is just another case of a Canadian-born player who would rather play somewhere where, and I'm being entirely honest here, hockey isn't as big a deal as it is back home. Look, I love my country, and I love hockey. So seeing Canada win gold medals at the Olympics is great. That being said? It would be great if these players actually cared about playing in Canada yearly as much as they say they love playing for Canada every four years.

Will the Leafs be fine without Stamkos? Yes. Is the cap space nice? Absolutely.

I'm still upset another Canadian kid has decided to shun a Canadian market because G-d forbid someone recognize him at the grocery store or the media ask him tough questions.

 

I'd kinda like to think I didn't exactly overreact too much; you talked about Stamkos spurning a market that "actually cares about hockey" and, well, I'm not exactly a Sunbelt apologist just like I'm not an SEC apologist; I root for my team and don't exactly care about the surrounding stuff because how exactly does that benefit me, exactly? You probably overstated for effect, and I overstated in a converse reaction to it. We're both rational people, so we both know just where to meet in the middle regarding that. 

 

And for the sake of fairness, lets not twist words here. I specifically said the Toronto "media" howling about Stamkos. Now, were Leafs fans doing the same? I'm sure. And I have no problem with that, lest that make me an enormous hypocrite. If nothing else, the name value of signing a former 60-goal scorer who was born and raised in the area would sure present a ton of marketing opportunities, to speak nothing of the kind of resource of wealth, knowledge, and leadership he would be a for a very young team (...though I still would assert that those do not make his would-be price-tag for Toronto worth it, personally). 

 

However, what I'm sure has been most frustrating for a Leafs fan, basically since Lockout II ended, has been the rudderless front office management. JFJ, Burke, Nonis, none of their crap on a stick worked. There's finally a structure that has been established there, and excellent scouting, drafting, development, and recruiting one of the best coaching minds in the sport has the Leafs poised to really break out within the next couple of years. And I can understand the interest in seeing a current All-Star like Steven Stamkos join ranks, and really try to help jump-start the process. I do! However, I think there will be some more appreciation in a few years when some contracts need extending at decent raises and there's not a potential 30-goal scorer who's not a possession machine clogging over $10M in payroll space, too. I love Stamkos as much as anyone, but there is a reason why I said that I cannot evaluate him much past $9M. His all-around game simply isn't strong enough

 

As a hockey fan, there's probably little more I'd love than to see Canadian hockey teams get their act together. Last season was an embarrassment. That being said, if today is any indication, that train appears to be going backwards before it starts going forward again. At least take solace (and you have been) that your team, finally, has its together. Most Canadian hockey fans clearly can't say that.

 

Appreciate the kind words too, of course. There are still some days where I feel like being a wholesome poster instead of a low-brow joke artist whoring out for "likes". I mean, the latter is fun, but the former involves actually stimulating my brain, and that's probably the better thing to try and do on a regular basis. Anyone, especially on the internet where delivery is irrelevant, can write jokes.

[mcj882000]

All I can think of is... if these Good Canadian Boys have so much trouble dealing with the media & fan pressure that comes with playing in a city that gives a damn, imagine how hard they'd have it if they played a different sport?

[rams80]

24 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

 

That's part of the problem, you see. We as a country have developed a hockey culture that purges personality from the best of the best, and instills in them the idea that to be proud of your talents and what you've accomplished is to be arrogant. So we produce these hockey players who are very skilled, but who don't want to play anywhere where they feel too much pressure to succeed. They don't want to be "the guy" who leads the Leafs to another Cup because if they're "the guy" on that team then they'd have to step up and take an active leadership role. In the locker room and in front of the media. And they've been conditioned most of their lives to view that sort of behaviour as bad. Something to avoid. So they sign in places where hockey isn't as big a deal as it is back home. 

 

 

Tl;DR version:  Burn the Western Hockey League to the ground, if not the entire CHL.

[rams80]

From the SB Nation comments thread on the Subban trade.

 

 

Quote

Canadian Teams won today!

Most won’t agree because of the media and stats. But PK is a team nuisance……….he may not be a person to person dickhead, create controversy or have a bad attitude or problems with any coach. But today on June 29th/2016, every other player on the Montreal team can finally breath again. As a pro player, you fly together, bus together, get dressed together, room together, eat together, shop together, do interviews together, do fundraisers together and more….and I have not even brought up the hockey part yet (practices, training camp, losing games, winning games, coaches fired etc). Every moment of every action listed above, it is all about PK, PK, PK…….and only PK. Now they can finally breath and be a team again. And I am astonished at the disrespect towards Shea Weber’s talent……..he has played above PK on Team Canada, not once but multiple times. He is consummate pro and you never hear about him(a good thing). He has the most intimidating shot on the planet and is way more physical. And 30 is still young, 10 more years to play the way players train today. As for Taylor Hall, if you have a picture in a dictionary of a "point suck", his picture would be there. Most readers should forget the points and respect the fact that GM’s and scouts know hockey……..and I can almost guarantee you that he is not as highly regarded in the NHL as his points total. Add to this his comments after the trade about being slighted and I say good riddance the pretty boy point suck. Adam Larsson may not be a sexy choice but I doubt the offers were any where near what other 70-80 team players would attract.

 

KILL. YOURSELF.

[The_Admiral]

Quote

But today on June 29th/2016, every other player on the Montreal team can finally breath again. As a pro player, you fly together, bus together, get dressed together, room together, eat together, shop together, do interviews together, do fundraisers together,

 

do your wives together, 

[IceCap]

15 minutes ago, Kramerica Industries said:

However, what I'm sure has been most frustrating for a Leafs fan, basically since Lockout II ended, has been the rudderless front office management. JFJ, Burke, Nonis, none of their crap on a stick worked. There's finally a structure that has been established there, and excellent scouting, drafting, development, and recruiting one of the best coaching minds in the sport has the Leafs poised to really break out within the next couple of years. And I can understand the interest in seeing a current All-Star like Steven Stamkos join ranks, and really try to help jump-start the process. I do! However, I think there will be some more appreciation in a few years when some contracts need extending at decent raises and there's not a potential 30-goal scorer who's not a possession machine clogging over $10M in payroll space, too. I love Stamkos as much as anyone, but there is a reason why I said that I cannot evaluate him much past $9M. His all-around game simply isn't strong enough

On one hand I actually do feel confident in the Leafs' future. On the other hand...well you've listed off the names yourself. You know how many rebuilds and architects this team has brought on board. I know Babcock and co. are a league above everyone else they've tried, but the fact is that I'm just tired of rebuild after aborted rebuild. I want to see something concrete.

Stamkos, for the reasons you mentioned, would bring something to the table. So I'm bummed about losing that. I know he'd eat up a lot of cap space but there are too many advantages to bringing him in for me to just go "glad we dodged that bullet."

On top of that...I'm just frustrated with the trend I've been discussing. Of Canadian-born talent that avoids Canada like the plague because they're deathly terrified of being recognized while grocery shopping. Stamkos isn't the only player guilty of this, not by a long shot. He's the latest and most prominent example though.

The Habs, Canucks, and Oilers all seem to have lost their minds recently, but the fact is that you can't lay ALL of the blame for Canada's collective Cup drought at the feet of the Canadian organizations. It's hard to build a winning hockey team when some of the best players in the world won't sign with you. 

 

39 minutes ago, Kramerica Industries said:

You probably overstated for effect, and I overstated in a converse reaction to it. We're both rational people, so we both know just where to meet in the middle regarding that. 

I did, and I do apologize if that was taken to mean anything more than what I implied. I've been using "where hockey isn't as big a deal" since, to try and get my point across without the hyperbole.

And I hope it remains a smaller deal in Tampa. I'll be there in a month, roughly, and I'm looking forward to affordable NHL tickets

 

[Sodboy13]

do coke off the cans of a $3,000/night escort together,

[Sport]

Maybe once Don Cherry croaks or leaves HNIC that kind of attitude will go with him? 

 

After my team I wanted McDavid to go to the Leafs. The best #1 to land in the league since Crosby, hometown kid who dreamt of playing for the Leafs his whole life, and he'd be playing for the biggest team in the league in a market where the sport is just healthier when they're better? It was just too perfect. And it was too perfect and he went to the most dysfunctional franchise West of Columbus, not to mention a Canadian team in the Western timezone so he's completely buried. They literally were 30th on my list of preferred teams for him to wind up with. It's almost tragic. 

 

Now all that said, McDavid is a damn snooze when it comes to personality because he's a product of the Canadian hockey system that punishes emotion so it's not like he was going to be coming into the league and snatching up acting jobs in the offseason, but is it too much to ask to see a little life from our athletes in this sport without jumping down their throats any time one of them dares to have a personality? Even baseball is better about this. BASEBALLFERCRYINGOUTLOUD!

[Kramerica Industries]

9 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

And I hope it remains a smaller deal in Tampa. I'll be there in a month, roughly, and I'm looking forward to affordable NHL tickets

 

 

Yeah, I've been meaning to say this, but, assuming I'm still living in the Tampa Bay area come the next hockey season (it's kind of a fluid situation for me ATM), we've definitely gotta take in a game. Ideally if the Leafs were the opponent, though, without looking, I have no clue when they come to town.

[IceCap]

I'm down!

 

And yeah. I need to see the largest indoor organ in person

[IceCap]

33 minutes ago, McCarthy said:

Maybe once Don Cherry croaks or leaves HNIC that kind of attitude will go with him? 

He once chastised the women's national team for running up the score on an opponent. Like winning by more than two goals wasn't the "Canadian" thing to do.

I want to say that him going away will help kill that mentality, but it probably won't. Don Cherry is just a symptom of the problem, not the cause. A loud, obnoxious, racist symptom, but a symptom non-the-less. I mean this is the country that came together when Loyalists fleeing the American Revolution set up shop in the closest piece of British territory they could get to. Which means that ultimately? We're proud of our forefathers for running away and losing nobly.

Kind of set the stage for everything that followed, eh?

[tp49]

3 hours ago, Ice_Cap said:

So you get that it's frustrating, but you're saying we shouldn't be frustrated. Gotcha.

Don't worry, Leafs fans can be frustrated again in a couple years when John Tavares decides to not come home when he's a UFA. 

[2001mark]

I'm okay with the Leafs missing out on Stamkos.  While he'd be great in the room & on the ice, this Leafs' youth won't be playoff ready until he's older & hoarding cap space anyway.  

Like Lecavalier kinda did.  In Tampa.  

 

Not sure what else Subban had to offer the Habs they hadn't already seen, he was passed over for captaincy when his iron was red hot.  Price maybe will appreciate Weber's more stay at home style, who knows.  Frankly I couldn't give a flying duck about the Habs.  Let them crash into the abyss of the standings forever more.

 

Taylor Hall going to oblivion in NJ... seems about right.  At least the Oilers received a dman in return, they probably sorely need greater balance.