MLB Stadium Saga: Oakland/Tampa Bay/Southside

[Brian in Boston]

29 minutes ago, GDAWG said:

I meant NFL (Cowboys in 1960), MLB (Rangers in 1972) and NBA (Mavericks in 1980) among the leagues still around today.  Plus the Stars didn't arrive until 1993 and FC Dallas didn't arrive until 1996.

Well, in any event. Las Vegas won't be the first city to land franchises in the leagues we now regard as major professional in rapid-fire succession. After all, if you're only going to regard American Football League franchises as joining the ranks of top-tier pro sports when the full AFL merger with the NFL took place, then...

Buffalo Bills / NFL / 1970
Buffalo Braves / NBA / 1970
Buffalo Sabres / NHL / 1970

BOOM!!! Three franchises in three of the so-called "Big Four" North American pro sports leagues in one fell swoop.

Similarly... 

San Diego Rockets / NBA / 1967
San Diego Padres / MLB / 1969
San Diego Chargers / NFL / 1970
(That's three years to land three franchises in the "Big Four".)

Kansas City Royals / MLB / 1969
Kansas City Chiefs / NFL / 1970
Kansas City-Omaha Kings / NBA / 1972
Kansas City Scouts / NHL / 1974
(Five years to land teams in all of the "Big Four" leagues.)

Denver Broncos / NFL / 1970
Denver Nuggets / NBA / 1976
Colorado Rockies / NHL / 1976
(Six years to land three teams amongst the "Big Four".) 






  

[dfwabel]

2 hours ago, AstroBull21 said:

If taxes are used, I’d say it’s highly unlikely it’ll be sales tax.  There are hotel taxes and other tourist taxes that would likely be targeted.

 

The Buccaneers burned any chance of using sales tax back in the mid 90s

A 1% hotel tax increase was approved by the Hillsborough County Commissioners two weeks ago to become effective August 1.  It will go from 5 to 6% with those additional revenues to go towards marketing and capital budgets of Raymond James Stadium, Amalie Arena, and tourism bureau marketing (specifically for the Super Bowl).  A car rental tax isn't going to work as even though Tampa International Airport's traffic is up, rental car revenue has fallen due to rideshare apps. 

 

And the Community Investment Tax could be extended since its end coincides within the years of both the current Bucs and Rays lease.  It was secretly on the table late last year. 

[pmoehrin]

The Rays can talk to Montreal all they want, but the city of St. Pete has already announced any potential move like this violates their lease agreement.

 

I doubt the Rays are going anywhere until at least 2027.

[Gothamite]

2 hours ago, GDAWG said:

Huh.....Tampa spent most of the 80's trying to lure Major League Baseball to their city.  They finally get one in 1998 and two decades later, that team wants out. 

 

In retrospect, not a good expansion choice. They’re a distant third favorite in their own market. 

[dfwabel]

1 hour ago, GDAWG said:

 

Didn't Pro Player/Joe Robbie/Dolphins/Land Shark/Sun Life/Hard Rock Stadium go through major renovations when the Marlins left?

Yes, it did.

1 hour ago, Magic Dynasty said:

Yes, but I'm not sure if the state paid for it. I was just listing Orlando examples that I know.

No, state money as Ross was rejected in 2013. 

The Miami-Dade County Industrial Development Authority issued the bonds on behalf of the Dolphins, all of which are to be repaid directly by Stephen Ross and the Dolphins. 

 

In addition, the Florida Legislature has another bill for 2019 which would further limit tax payer funded stadiums.

From the story:

Quote

The House Workforce Development & Tourism Subcommittee on Thursday backed a measure (HB 791) that would go further than a similar Senate proposal (SB 414), which would repeal an unused pool of sales-tax dollars intended for building and improving professional sports stadiums.

The House proposal, filed by Rep. Bryan Avila, R-Miami Springs, also would prohibit the use of revenues from tourist-development taxes or convention-development taxes to finance or construct facilities that would be used by sports franchises.

The bill also would remove authority for local governments to spend half-cent sales tax revenues on motorsports entertainment complexes.

To bolster his case, Avila pointed to local spending on Marlins Stadium in Miami and the Legislature’s 2013 rejection of a $350 million funding request by the Miami Dolphins.

 

[mania]

Well that was a fun few hours.

 

 

[SFGiants58]

1 minute ago, Gothamite said:

 

In retrospect, not a good expansion choice. They’re a distant third favorite in their own market. 

 

The team only exists because of Vince Naimoli’s lawsuit. Either face a $3.5 billion anti-trust lawsuit or give some cheap doofus an expansion team. Also, after blue-balling the market for so long, an expansion team was a half-decent way to save face. Now, we see that the people who doubted the market during the 1980s/90s were right. As I’ve said before, MLB teams, St. Pete politicians/civil servants, and Tampa Bay Area owners killed regular season MLB baseball in the market even before a team could take the field.

 

That’s the impression I got, anyway.

[bosrs1]

2 hours ago, GDAWG said:

Don't the Angels and Diamondbacks have stadium issues themselves?  I am thinking that the Angels will at least remain in the Los Angeles area. 

 

Diamondback issues are completely fabricated. The BoB is still a great modern park with all the modern bull :censored:. 

 

Angels aren't leaving LA so they don’t have an issue so much as a desire for a new ballpark.

[bosrs1]

21 minutes ago, pmoehrin said:

The Rays can talk to Montreal all they want, but the city of St. Pete has already announced any potential move like this violates their lease agreement.

 

I doubt the Rays are going anywhere until at least 2027.

 

The city claiming it violates the lease doesn’t mean it violates the lease. 

[Gothamite]

9 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

The team only exists because of Vince Naimoli’s lawsuit. Either face a $3.5 billion anti-trust lawsuit or give some cheap doofus an expansion team. Also, after blue-balling the market for so long, an expansion team was a half-decent way to save face. Now, we see that the people who doubted the market during the 1980s/90s were right. As I’ve said before, MLB teams, St. Pete politicians/civil servants, and Tampa Bay Area owners killed regular season MLB baseball in the market even before a team could take the field.

 

That’s the impression I got, anyway.

 

I get that people were turned off by ownership, but in any other market winning a lot and going to a World Series would put hard feelings aside. 

 

I can’t think of another market so indifferent to its team.  So indifferent that its own players have to call it out. 

[bcon_731]

I just dont understand, the commuting distance. If they were going to Tampa to San Juan, that makes sense. But youre going to travel, make sure all the visas are taken care of, from america to a different country. Just feels like alot of leaps and bounds to compensate not getting a new stadium.  

[PrimalCookie]

Stolen from Reddit, but this sums up the situation really well.

 

..Montreal would sell the  out like crazy in their split of the games becasue YAY BASEBALL IS BACK and maybe we can even get them to move fully to Montreal!

...Meanwhile, back in Tampa, NO ONE WOULD GO. Why would they? They know this is BS and a ploy to get a move to Montreal. If you think attendance is bad now, wait until this happens. They might get attendance in the hundreds for many games.

And then....Sternberg and MLB would be able to say "look see? Montreal will support us, AND they'll build us a stadium. We have to move. Bye Tampa Bay!"

This is a move designed to make this move look great for everyone....except Tampa.

[SFGiants58]

21 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

I get that people were turned off by ownership, but in any other market winning a lot and going to a World Series would put hard feelings aside. 

 

I can’t think of another market so indifferent to its team.  So indifferent that its own players have to call it out. 

 

Yeah, that’s the point that gets me. Even Arizona, Miami/Florida, and other teams with long periods of failure have had attendance go up with successful runs. None of them had to give away World Series tickets, AFAIK. The Trop’s location doesn’t help matters, but even that isn’t an adequate explanation. This also applies to the TV ratings numbers, since that doesn’t necessarily translate to the long-term viability of the team.

 

We can blame the process of getting a team for the disinterest all we want (and I assign some percentage of it for liking the passion and establishing doubt in MLB’s Tampa Bay efforts), but the interest has never really been there.

[mania]

8 minutes ago, Magic Dynasty said:

 This is a move designed to make this move look great for everyone....except Tampa.

 

You know what would be a great move for Tampa?

 

Not this.

 

 

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

38 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

In retrospect, not a good expansion choice. They’re a distant third favorite in their own market. 

 

22 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

I get that people were turned off by ownership, but in any other market winning a lot and going to a World Series would put hard feelings aside. 

 

I can’t think of another market so indifferent to its team.  So indifferent that its own players have to call it out. 

 

1 minute ago, SFGiants58 said:

Yeah, that’s the point that gets me. Even Arizona, Miami/Florida, and other teams with long periods of failure have had attendance go up with successful runs. None of them had to give away World Series tickets, AFAIK.

 

That's what Major League Baseball gets for putting a team in a spring training location.

 

[FiddySicks]

The only way I'm cool with this is if they're the Tampa bay Rays for half of the season, and the Montreal Expos for the other half. They have to switch leagues after the All Star break, too. 

[SFGiants58]

1 minute ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

 

 

 

That's what Major League Baseball gets for putting a team in a spring training location.

 

 

Would you be saying that if the Marlins had competent ownership and didn’t perform the first fire sale?

 

Baseball in Florida could absolutely work, it’s just that it was handled in the worst way possible.

[GDAWG]

So how is the attendance for the Lightning as compared to the Rays?

[AstroCree]

If they're gonna move the Rays to Montreal then I request the (Ex)Rays and Nationals to swap leagues to have DC back in the AL and Montreal back in the NL. Order will then be restored.

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

1 minute ago, SFGiants58 said:

5 minutes ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

That's what Major League Baseball gets for putting a team in a spring training location.

 

Would you be saying that if the Marlins had competent ownership and didn’t perform the first fire sale?

 

Yes.  I was opposed to the awarding of a team to Miami in the first place on the grounds that Florida is for spring training.

 

 

2 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Baseball in Florida could absolutely work, it’s just that it was handled in the worst way possible.

 

Baseball can indeed work there: spring training, Florida State League, Gulf Coast League.  But a Major League team?  No.