MLB Stadium Saga: Oakland/Tampa Bay/Southside

[Around the Horn]

2 hours ago, mania said:

Well that was a fun few hours.

 

 

My next question is what does it take to discontinue the use agreement?

42 minutes ago, BringBackTheVet said:

Having BOS and NYY on the schedule on a regular basis might help Miami (though it didn't help TB), and MTL belongs in the NL East (and it'd split up TOR and MTL again... though I would understand if people thought they should be together and have a regular rivalry.)

As you say, Toronto and Montreal playing 18 games a year against each other in the AL East would be pretty fun though... and if they met in a playoff series forget about it...

[Dynasty]

2 hours ago, insert name said:

If they're gonna move the Rays to Montreal then I request the (Ex)Rays and Nationals to swap leagues to have DC back in the AL and Montreal back in the NL. Order will then be restored.

 

While it would be neat to see the O's and Nats in the same division, I don't want both teams in the Baltimore/Washington area being New York or Boston's bitch for most of the time.

 

Also, I do like the idea of teams in the same city being in separate leagues (New York, Chicago, Los Angeles). It would be sweet if they where both in the World Series against each other like in 2000.

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

55 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Wow, telling somebody “You should lose your team!” isn’t a good look. It makes you look like a dick.

 

I'm really more saying "you should have had your team in the first place".

 

Anyway, calls to move the (Devil) Rays have been happening since soon after the team got there.  And the Marlins were talked about as candidates for contraction.

 

 

55 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Did you say that to Giants and Mariners fans in the early-1990s? 

 

No way.

 

The Giants moving out of San Francisco would have been a tragedy; and their moving from a city as great as San Francisco to Tampa Bay would have been a double insult. Through my study of baseball history, I developed an emotional attachment to this team that had originated in my city; and, as the 1992 season drew to an close, I was just sick over the fact that this historic team's move away from its longtime home was considered inevitable.

 

And I also did not want to see the Mariners leave Seattle. When the Yankees lost to the Mariners in the first Division Series in 1995, I was not sad; this contrasted strongly with my misery after their losses in the World Series in 1976 and 1981, and in the League Championship Series in 1980. In 1995 I was not sad mainly because the Yankees, not having come in first in their division that year, did not really belong in the playoffs. (This distaste for the wild card presaged my disgust with interleague play, and my retirement as an active fan after 1996.)

 

But another important reason that I was not sad was that it looked like this Mariners victory could keep the tean in Seattle.

 

However, to group Tampa in with traditional baseball cities such as San Francisco and Seattle (whose histories in high-level baseball date back many decades in the Pacific Coast League, well before the arrival of their Major League teams) is quite a stretch.

 

 

55 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Quote

the majority of baseball fans in Florida support Northeastern teams. That will probably change eventually. And when it does, that's when Florida cities will be legitimate places for Major League teams.

 

It changed in that direction once a few generations of “native” Floridians occurred. It might not have in Tampa, but I’m sure it has in Miami (people from Miami, let me know). 

 

So you think that the Marlins are more popular than the Yankees in Miami? Earlier, Gothamite said that the Rays are the third most popular Major Lague team in Tampa. Likewise, the Marlins are, at best, the second most popular Major League team in Miami, and quite possibly the third.

 

 

55 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Would you use that as a defense for why Florida shouldn’t have basketball teams?

 

Certainly not. The cultural and historical factors surrounding each sport are unique to that sport. 

 

 

55 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

Quote

Also, Miami is not far from spring training land. The Orioles trained in Miami for decades; and the Dodgers played plenty of games there even while their main base was in Vero Beach. And, of course, the Yankees were in Fort Lauderdale for a very long time. 

 

I didn’t know that. Thanks for the history!

 

You knew this; you just chose to ignore it. The reality is that the effect on the mindsets of Florida baseball fans of having been the spring training homes for the Northeastern teams remains strong. It's time to accept that this is the way it is. Perhaps the matter can be revisited a few generations down the line.

[_DietDrPepper_]

@SFGiants58

will this appear on your defunct series as a failed relocation? Lol

[SFGiants58]

9 minutes ago, BellaSpurs said:

@SFGiants58

will this appear on your defunct series as a failed relocation? Lol

 

 

Challenge accepted! It'll be a bit more tongue-in-cheek, if you catch my drift.  

[Red Wolf]

I like the idea that Florida can't have MLB teams because of spring training because it's such a weird argument that ignores all of the actual reasons for the teams to not be there. I'm also stealing this argument for why Arkansas doesn't have Major League Baseball since Hot Springs used to host spring training and ignoring all of the actual reasons.

[Wings]

It was pretty much this 

after the thwarted Giants relocation:

 

Vince Naimoli: I'm going to sue MLB

MLB: Here's a damn expansion team

Vince: I'm no longer going to sue MLB

[Gothamite]

I know it sucks to lose your favorite player.  But fans of all teams lose their favorite players all the time, and they don’t get two world championships out of it.  Only, what, four other teams have been able to repeat in the years since?

[marlinfan]

25 minutes ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

 

I'm really more saying "you should have had your team in the first place".

 

Anyway, calls to move the (Devil) Rays have been happening since soon after the team got there.  And the Marlins were talked about as candidates for contraction.

 

 

 

No way.

 

The Giants moving out of San Francisco would have been a tragedy; and their moving from a city as great as San Francisco to Tampa Bay would have been a double insult. Through my study of baseball history, I developed an emotional attachment to this team that had originated in my city; and, as the 1992 season drew to an close, I was just sick over the fact that this historic team's move away from its longtime home was considered inevitable.

 

And I also did not want to see the Mariners leave Seattle. When the Yankees lost to the Mariners in the first Division Series in 1995, I was not sad; this contrasted strongly with my misery after their losses in the World Series in 1976 and 1981, and in the League Championship Series in 1980. In 1995 I was not sad mainly because the Yankees, not having come in first in their division that year, did not really belong in the playoffs. (This distaste for the wild card presaged my disgust with interleague play, and my retirement as an active fan after 1996.)

 

But another important reason that I was not sad was that it looked like this Mariners victory could keep the tean in Seattle.

 

However, to group Tampa in with traditional baseball cities such as San Francisco and Seattle (whose histories in high-level baseball date back many decades in the Pacific Coast League, well before the arrival of their Major League teams) is quite a stretch.

 

 

 

So you think that the Marlins are more popular than the Yankees in Miami? Earlier, Gothamite said that the Rays are the third most popular Major Lague team in Tampa. Likewise, the Marlins are, at best, the second most popular Major League team in Miami, and quite possibly the third.

 

 

 

Certainly not. The cultural and historical factors surrounding each sport are unique to that sport. 

 

 

 

You knew this; you just chose to ignore it. The reality is that the effect on the mindsets of Florida baseball fans of having been the spring training homes for the Northeastern teams remains strong. It's time to accept that this is the way it is. Perhaps the matter can be revisited a few generations down the line.

 

The Marlins are more popular than the Yankees in Miami. Despite 16 years of horrible mismanagement the Marlins fans would still outdraw Yankees fans like they did in the 2003 World Series. The gap was narrowed in that time, but nothing unites Miamians more than rooting against a team from New York. This is similar with the Heat and Dolphins. Even the Cuban exiles that can remember watching the Yankees in the 40s and 50s in black and white put the Marlins before the Yankees. The rules that govern the rest of Florida do not apply in Miami. Anyone who has spent a decent enough time here fully understands.

 

This map from 2014 shows this: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/04/24/upshot/facebook-baseball-map.html#7,26.015,-81.360

 

You can continue to repeat your line about Northeasterners in Florida, but it ignores  facts: 1) 53% of Miami-Dade was not even born in this country and 2) That Miami is a full generation removed from spring training baseball.

[Dilbert]

Honestly the Florida experiment should have ended a while ago. Miami and Tampa are better off in the Florida State League. Lets get baseball back to Montreal and to maybe Portland, Las Vegas, Charlotte or Nashville.

[SFGiants58]

55 minutes ago, Ferdinand Cesarano said:

 

I'm really more saying "you should have had your team in the first place".

 

Anyway, calls to move the (Devil) Rays have been happening since soon after the team got there.  And the Marlins were talked about as candidates for contraction.

 

 

While both may be true, you're still ignoring the extenuating circumstances behind each of those calls. Better ownership would have made the difference for Miami at least. Also, saying to a fan of a team that their team shouldn't exist is just insensitive. Would you say that to their face?

 

Quote

No way.

 

The Giants moving out of San Francisco would have been a tragedy; and their moving from a city as great as San Francisco to Tampa Bay would have been a double insult. Through my study of baseball history, I developed an emotional attachment to this team that had originated in my city; and, as the 1992 season drew to an close, I was just sick over the fact that this historic team's move away from its longtime home was considered inevitable.

 

You would be surprised at how similar the situations are between the current Rays and the pre-1993 Giants. "Candlescat" Park was the open-air equivalent of The Trop, as it was an inhospitable place to play baseball and arguably to blame for much of the team's financial woes during the 1960s-'90s. The team only cracked the two million mark for attendance once (1989) and drew under one million in eleven seasons. It was officially declared "unsuitable for baseball" at one point, prompting several failed referendums for a mostly taxpayer-funded stadium that predictably failed. Media of the time tried to argue that these referendums were a sign that the city didn't want the team. I saw that a lot in my research, including one of the most asinine quotes I've ever encountered.

 

Quote

Willie Mays should have finished his career where it started, in the Polo Grounds. San Francisco had always been an American League town. Its minor-league teams were affiliated with the AL, and its greatest hero, Joe DiMaggio, had played there as well.

 

Mays never was as happy in San Francisco as he was in New York.

 

-Blaine Newnham of The Seattle Times, "If Move OK’d, It’s a Giant Mistake," August 11, 1992

 

The truth was, of course, that Bay Area taxpayers don't like paying the majority of the stadium bill. 

 

Quote

And I also did not want to see the Mariners leave Seattle. When the Yankees lost to the Mariners in the first Division Series in 1995, I was not sad; this contrasted strongly with my misery after their losses in the World Series in 1976 and 1981, and in the League Championship Series in 1980. In 1995 I was not sad mainly because the Yankees, not having come in first in their division that year, did not really belong in the playoffs. (This distaste for the wild card presaged my disgust with interleague play, and my retirement as an active fan after 1996.)

 

But another important reason that I was not sad was that it looked like this Mariners victory could keep the tean in Seattle.

 

I fail to see how events in 1995 are germane to the Mariners almost moving to Tampa Bay in 1992. Similarly to the Rays, they were born out of a lawsuit. They had an even worse time of it than the Rays, not achieving a winning season until 14 years into their existence. The Mariners also had a depressing dome for a venue, with piss-poor attendance and calls to move them. I'd argue that the situation is fairly similar to the Rays.

 

The victory certainly helped get a stadium done, but the purchase of the team by Nintendo of America pretty much made their commitment to Seattle a done deal.

 

Quote

 

However, to group Tampa in with traditional baseball cities such as San Francisco and Seattle (whose histories in high-level baseball date back many decades in the Pacific Coast League, well before the arrival of their Major League teams) is quite a stretch.

 

 

So, are we just going to ignore the long history of minor league baseball in the area?

 

The Tampa Smokers, Tampa Tarpons, and St. Petersburg Saints (and Cardinals) would beg to differ. Just because the minor league didn't rise to the status of the old PCL doesn't disqualify them from mattering.

 

Quote

 

So you think that the Marlins are more popular than the Yankees in Miami? Earlier, Gothamite said that the Rays are the third most popular Major Lague team in Tampa. Likewise, the Marlins are, at best, the second most popular Major League team in Miami, and quite possibly the third.

 

I'm not sure, but there's enough of a market for them. Given better ownership and marketing, they could be number one. However, Huizenga and Loria intervened to stop that.

 

Quote

Certainly not. The cultural and historical factors surrounding each sport are unique to that sport. 

 

But are they? The argument about transplants still following their old teams applies here as well. Somehow the Orlando Magic and Miami Heat are thriving teams, even if the locals are from New York or Boston. 

 

Quote

You knew this; you just chose to ignore it. The reality is that the effect on the mindsets of Florida baseball fans of having been the spring training homes for the Northeastern teams remains strong. It's time to accept that this is the way it is. Perhaps the matter can be revisited a few generations down the line.

 

Actually, I didn't know that Spring Training homes were that close to Miami. Also, see @marlinfan's post for a correction.

 

26 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

I know it sucks to lose your favorite player.  But fans of all teams lose their favorite players all the time, and they don’t get two world championships out of it.  Only, what, four other teams have been able to repeat in the years since?

 

You're underselling how devastating those fire sales were for fan engagement. When over three-quarters of the championship roster doesn't return and it's clear that the team won't commit to its successful lineup, you've got problems.

Edited June 21, 2019 by SFGiants58
Added quote

[Gothamite]

And yet after the first fire sale they won a second world championship.  Really finding it hard to be too sympathetic about that one. 

[Gothamite]

27 minutes ago, marlinfan said:

The Marlins are more popular than the Yankees in Miami.

 

Interestingly enough, after the Rays had won the AL pennant they still weren’t more popular than the Yankees in the Tampa Bay area.  Nor were they more popular than the Red Sox; one of the best teams in baseball was the third-favorite team among baseball fans in its own town.

[AustinFromBoston]

Was The Rays attendance even that much better during 08 when they made the World Series? Did they even sell out any of their home games? 

[SFGiants58]

3 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

And yet after the first fire sale they won a second world championship.  Really finding it hard to be too sympathetic about that one. 

 

Then they had another fire sale, followed by a stadium debacle, followed by two fire sales. The franchise's most relevant players wound up being traded for little in return and the best Cuban-American player (a guy Miami really could/should have marketed around) died in a cocaine-related boating accident. That second championship is a tiny bit obscure when the team has only posted only four winning seasons since, with the most recent one in 2009. Also, when most of those players wound up succeeding away from the confines of Marlins Park or Joe Robbie Stadium, it hurts even more. 

 

I get that it's more championships than several other teams, but the crap following it has made those two titles far less relevant. But now we're in Marlins talk, which distracts us from the Tampa Bay Litigation Preventers.

[Wings]

42 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

I know it sucks to lose your favorite player.  But fans of all teams lose their favorite players all the time, and they don’t get two world championships out of it.  Only, what, four other teams have been able to repeat in the years since?

 

Exactly. I'll cherish the 3 Giants titles  forever. 

[marlinfan]

13 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

Interestingly enough, after the Rays had won the AL pennant they still weren’t more popular than the Yankees in the Tampa Bay area.  Nor were they more popular than the Red Sox; one of the best teams in baseball was the third-favorite team among baseball fans in its own town.

 

I won’t comment on where the Rays are in the pecking order since I haven’t been in Tampa long enough to get a feel for it, but the link above shows the Rays being the favorite baseball team. 

 

I think MLB failed the Rays but not doing more to push the Yankees out of the Tampa area (to Orlando?) to allow the Rays to establish themselves.

[marlinfan]

18 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

And yet after the first fire sale they won a second world championship.  Really finding it hard to be too sympathetic about that one. 

 

3 years after winning the championship they were also visiting Las Vegas, Portland, San Antonio, and Oklahoma City for new ballparks.

 

@SFGiants58 summed it up pretty well. He forgot David Samson bragging at a banquet how he got taxpayers to fund the majority of the stadium AND later in an inebriated state yelling “$1.2 BILLION!” when he was booed by fans at another event after the sale.

[SFGiants58]

9 minutes ago, Wings said:

 

Exactly. I'll cherish the 3 Giants titles  forever. 

 

Same here! I'll always cherish them and I hope that every fanbase gets to experience that feeling at least a few times, no matter how many times people try to dismiss the titles as "flukes" or "undeserving." Bleep that. 

 

Of course, the Giants didn't immediately sell off all of their best players following the titles (twice!) or try to claim losses despite being in the black. It's easier to maintain interest when the championship roster keeps returning, for better or for worse. 

[Wings]

2 minutes ago, SFGiants58 said:

 

Same here! I'll always cherish them and I hope that every fanbase gets to experience that feeling at least a few times, no matter how many times people try to dismiss the titles as "flukes" or "undeserving." Bleep that. 

 

Of course, the Giants didn't immediately sell off all of their best players following the titles (twice!) or try to claim losses despite being in the black. It's easier to maintain interest when the championship roster keeps returning, for better or for worse. 

 

They just got old instead