Stadium/Arena Saga Omnibus

[Gothamite]

20 hours ago, SFGiants58 said:

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I'm curious about the evidence of the ratings breakdown per team. I doubt the Rays or their network affiliate want to make it public. What would the 38 Yankees and Red Sox games draw in comparison to the other 124 games?

 

I hear the Yankees-Red Sox sound bite often enough that I want some evidentiary proof. Again, I'm not totally disputing it, I'm just wondering about the statistical validity. 

I don’t think we’ll ever get a television breakdown by opponent.  But that would be interesting. 

 

I was going off the polls from a couple years back that put the Rays as the third favorite team. Among baseball fans. In their own market. 

 

Which would explain the discrepancy between their decent television ratings and their pathetic attendance, which not even winning has been able to improve.  “Stadium location” is often cited by the team’s apologists, but I’m offering an alternate explanation that would fit the facts. 

[IceCap]

On 5/23/2021 at 12:52 AM, DnBronc said:

 

That hockey team probably won't get any support when it starts losing. We'll see how long it stays there.

If the Arizona Coyotes have proven anything it's that the NHL will move heaven and Earth to keep a team in the desert. 

 

They will also threaten to move a team in a Canadian city during the press conference to announce said team. 

 

The Golden Knights' fanbase could dry up faster then that stack of cash you set aside for poker in Vegas and the NHL will keep them there until the heat death of the universe. 

 

On 5/23/2021 at 3:10 AM, Ridleylash said:

I'd be more concerned with the Raiders, honestly. The Golden Knights got to be the first child and happened to come in right at a very important time for locals, so the city has a stronger connection to them then the Raiders, who from what I've seen haven't had the locals enthusiastic at all. If any of the three potential teams is the least likely to move, it'd be the Knights.

 

The Raiders have a history of bouncing from city to city between Oakland and LA. Them bouncing to Vegas and then bouncing somewhere else isn't exactly unfathomable.

The Raiders "bouncing" out of Las Vegas is entirely unfathomable because of that state of the art stadium. 

 

And as for Vegas not being enthused for the Raiders...guy. Have you been living under a rock? Their first year in Vegas was the year teams had to play in front of empty stadiums because of a global pandemic. I think we owe both Las Vegas and the Raiders some time before we write that off. 

 

The NFL is, at the end of the day, infinitely more popular in the US than the NHL ever will be. I don't expect the Golden Knights to leave Vegas either (worst case scenario the fanbase collapses and they become a team like the Coyotes, bouncing from schmuck owner to schmuck owner), but between the Raiders and the Knights? I'm betting on the NFL team having the brighter future.

As I would in pretty much every city that has both NFL and NHL teams. 

[BBTV]

On 5/23/2021 at 3:10 AM, Ridleylash said:

I'd be more concerned with the Raiders, honestly. The Golden Knights got to be the first child and happened to come in right at a very important time for locals, so the city has a stronger connection to them then the Raiders, who from what I've seen haven't had the locals enthusiastic at all. If any of the three potential teams is the least likely to move, it'd be the Knights.

 

The Raiders have a history of bouncing from city to city between Oakland and LA. Them bouncing to Vegas and then bouncing somewhere else isn't exactly unfathomable.

 

How did this post get 5 likes?  Let's start:

 

1.  Don't assume that there's much crossover between NHL and NFL fans.  There's plenty of NFL fans that are barely aware of the NHL's existence.  There may be some people who have to decide whether to spend their money on one vs the other, but there's plenty for whom there's no decision to be made because it's NFL or nothing.

 

2.  "the city has a stronger connection to them then the Raiders, who from what I've seen haven't had the locals enthusiastic at all."  LOL, what are you talking about "from what I've seen"?  What have you seen?  In what way do you have your finger on the pulse of the Las Vegas community?  If you're going by 2020 attendance, then Ice Cap already covered it.

 

3.  The locals don't even matter that much for an NFL team's success.  Come 2022, worst case, the stadium will be filled with visiting fans, and the Raiders will still sell gear to some local fans as well as California fans and people who just like the brand.

 

4.  A "history of bouncing from city to city"?  22 years in Oakland, 13 in LA, 25 in Oakland.   I guess 13 years in LA counts as a "bounce" in sports terms, but it's not obscene.  And they were in crap stadiums in both cities, and their moves were driven by the need for stadium improvements... which they no longer have any need for in the foreseeable future.  

 

There's zero chance of the team "bouncing" in fewer than the 13 years they were in Oakland, and if not for what Ice Cap said about the OITGDNHL way that league protects non-traditional markets, I'd bet my house that the Raiders outlast anyone else there.

[LMU]

Every Southwest plane going from LAX/Burbank/Long Beach/Ontario/John Wayne to Oakland on fall Sundays was chock full of silver and black fans.  Putting the Raiders in an actual resort destination is going to put butts in seats for a long, long time.

[GDAWG]

On 5/23/2021 at 8:37 AM, Red Comet said:

We haven't even seen how Las Vegas will truly support the Raiders yet as the pandemic sabotaged their debut season there. 

 

Why the hell are people thinking that they can support the A's and now an NBA team?  

 

Because Las Vegas has delusions of grandeur when it comes to major league sports.

[DG_YouKnowWhatThatMeans]

3 hours ago, LMU said:

Every Southwest plane going from LAX/Burbank/Long Beach/Ontario/John Wayne to Oakland on fall Sundays was chock full of silver and black fans.  Putting the Raiders in an actual resort destination is going to put butts in seats for a long, long time.

 

People in the northeast can't really understand how close Vegas is to California. It's a different mindset.

[LMU]

1 minute ago, DG_ThenNowForever said:

 

People in the northeast can't really understand how close Vegas is to California. It's a different mindset.

Plus distances are much less significant out here. It’s a 250 mile, 4 hour drive, with most of it wide open highway minus food/gas/bathroom stops in Barstow, Baker, and Primm.

[FiddySicks]

On 5/18/2021 at 4:55 PM, Joke Insurance said:

 

Could Sutter Health Park be upgraded to MLB standards?

They planned on it originally, but the stability of the land (the stadium is right next to a river, hence the RiverCats name) came into question and nixed those plans. Access is pretty poor (everything is here, really), too. It’s also technically in an entirely different city (South Sacramento, CA), and that’s caused more problems for that site than they had originally foreseen. 
 

The feasibility of fully expanding that entire entire area has been done to death already and the answer for pretty much the last century is a pretty resounding no. One of the reasons it’s sat empty for no joke the last 100 years is because it was used as a defacto toxic waste dump site going WAY back. 

 

[DEAD!]

5 hours ago, LMU said:

Plus distances are much less significant out here. It’s a 250 mile, 4 hour drive, with most of it wide open highway minus food/gas/bathroom stops in Barstow, Baker, and Primm.

Yeah, I recall 26 years ago, my late uncle driving my family from orange county to ... Laughlin and stopped in Barstow.  Left around 7 and arrived around midnight. California in terms of distance from west to east is not that far. 

I have also done San Francisco to LA. That was  longer.

[Walk-Off]

Trucking Groups Oppose Oakland Stadium Port Site Even as A's Mull Moving

 

Oakland A’s set to come to Portland on a baseball fact-finding mission

 

Finally, there is this bizarre, tone-deaf tweet from the president of the A's:

 

https://twitter.com/DaveKaval/status/1397023219421310978

 

(I made multiple tries at embedding the tweet, but each attempt resulted only in code being displayed in my post.)

[BBTV]

7 hours ago, LMU said:

Plus distances are much less significant out here. It’s a 250 mile, 4 hour drive, with most of it wide open highway minus food/gas/bathroom stops in Barstow, Baker, and Primm.

 

I was on the phone with someone from my health insurance company and they were helping me find a provider.  She said "this one is 5 miles away" and I was like "LOL lady, I'm not trying to take a train or fly to the dr... find something closer."  

 

Totally different culture when it comes to driving.  

[DG_YouKnowWhatThatMeans]

1 hour ago, BBTV said:

 

I was on the phone with someone from my health insurance company and they were helping me find a provider.  She said "this one is 5 miles away" and I was like "LOL lady, I'm not trying to take a train or fly to the dr... find something closer."  

 

Totally different culture when it comes to driving.  

 

I get that too. Wide open spaces out here (outside of city cores). That and higher speed limits.

 

When I lived in downtown Seattle though, yeah, I generally wouldn't go to any appointment I couldn't walk to.

[Sport]

On 5/25/2021 at 7:05 AM, Gothamite said:

I don’t think we’ll ever get a television breakdown by opponent.  But that would be interesting. 

 

I was going off the polls from a couple years back that put the Rays as the third favorite team. Among baseball fans. In their own market. 

 

Which would explain the discrepancy between their decent television ratings and their pathetic attendance, which not even winning has been able to improve.  “Stadium location” is often cited by the team’s apologists, but I’m offering an alternate explanation that would fit the facts. 

On 5/24/2021 at 5:19 PM, SFGiants58 said:

 

Or, maybe the market is the problem. While viewership has apparently been high, it has never translated into ticket sales or any sustained presence in the region. At some point, it can't all be the stadium or the location or the owner. There has never been any string of attendance success with the Rays. During the '08 pennant run, the team had to give away playoff tickets.

 

 

Sure it can because the stadium situation has not changed. It actually gets worse every day with no sign that it's getting better. To expect Tampa Bay metro market baseball fans to change their baseball attending behaviors when nothing else has changed frankly makes no sense. 

 

I don't know why everyone keeps searching for other reasons when this very large, very valid reason explains the entirety of the problem. 

[LMU]

The story I’ve heard, which makes more and more sense the longer this saga plays out, is that the Rays’ existence is solely a settlement for the torpedoed Giants and White Sox moves. St. Pete, a very isolated city from a potential fan base, built a ridiculously ill-advised stadium with delusions of grandeur, lost out on multiple possible tenants, and threatened legal action against MLB if they didn’t win the expansion lottery. The (Devil) Rays were subsequently shackled with a ridiculous lease by a city not wanting to be jilted again despite it clear as day that the experiment is a failure, and the city has done nothing to look at the clear picture that their white elephant is more suited as a Costco than a ballpark. The Rays are really at this point a scapegoat for the city’s failure in building the Trop in the first place.

[SpenserRM]

37 minutes ago, Sport said:

 

Sure it can because the stadium situation has not changed. It actually gets worse every day with no sign that it's getting better. To expect Tampa Bay metro market baseball fans to change their baseball attending behaviors when nothing else has changed frankly makes no sense. 

 

I don't know why everyone keeps searching for other reasons when this very large, very valid reason explains the entirety of the problem. 

This right here. Nobody is going to just magically start showing up to games when we're constantly being threatened with losing the team. Until they announce that they're going to stay in the Tampa Bay area long-term, dont expect attendance to change. 

[BBTV]

17 minutes ago, SpenserRM said:

This right here. Nobody is going to just magically start showing up to games when we're constantly being threatened with losing the team. Until they announce that they're going to stay in the Tampa Bay area long-term, dont expect attendance to change. 

 

If anything, if a team is looking to leave, I'd be less likely to commit my time and $ to them.  

 

I'll never forget the 2008 WS - it was cheaper to get tickets in Tampa and fly there than it was to go to a game here.  I totally get that the market never got a fair chance due to the stadium deal - I'm not going to expect anyone to drive to a horribly-located dump on a work night just to sit through 4 hours of pitching changes and mound huddles.  The thing is, none of the other metrics seem to make the case that the experiment would succeed even with a better / more convenient park.  Certainly not enough to warrant a $2b public investment.

 

The Florida MLB experiment has been a complete and total failure, and the sooner they can start undoing the Tampa part of it, the sooner they can start recouping some of the losses.

[SFGiants58]

11 minutes ago, LMU said:

The story I’ve heard, which makes more and more sense the longer this saga plays out, is that the Rays’ existence is solely a settlement for the torpedoed Giants and White Sox moves. St. Pete, a very isolated city from a potential fan base, built a ridiculously ill-advised stadium with delusions of grandeur, lost out on multiple possible tenants, and threatened legal action against MLB if they didn’t win the expansion lottery. The (Devil) Rays were subsequently shackled with a ridiculous lease by a city not wanting to be jilted again despite it clear as day that the experiment is a failure, and the city has done nothing to look at the clear picture that their white elephant is more suited as a Costco than a ballpark. The Rays are really at this point a scapegoat for the city’s failure in building the Trop in the first place.

Oh believe me, it’s not just the Giants and White Sox. Yes, the Trop was built for the White Sox, but St. Pete tried to get a bunch of teams for it. The Mariners and two competing expansion groups also almost happened. 
 

These images are in reference to the purchase of the M’s by Nintendo.

 

One of the two competing expansion groups was the Florida Panthers (their failure led to Huizenga picking up the name for his NHL club) led by Frank Morsani. Morsani had led efforts to build a stadium in Tampa proper with private funding, almost getting the Twins, A’s, and Rangers to move there. After some setbacks, he settled on letting his prospective team play at the Trop instead of a location adjacent to The Sombrero/RayJay. His expansion bid didn’t make the cut.

 

The second expansion group, headed up by a partnership between St. Petersburg Cardinals owners/cousins Steve Porter and Joel Schur. They might have made the cut instead of Denver or Miami for the second expansion slot, but crazy money problems scuttled their bid. I have a whole post about that here:

 

TL, DR: Business partners left them out to dry, they couldn’t come up with money fast enough (at the deadline), and Miami had Blockbuster Video money (Huizenga) and Denver had Coors Beer money. 
 

The Mariners and Giants were a last-ditch effort to get a team, but both failed for different reasons. I have a whole write-up about the Giants one here:

 

At the end of the day, The Trop is the result of political chicanery by St. Pete officials (it wasn’t a referendum done by city or county residents) and Jerry Reinsdorf dicking the Illinois state senate around. The Rays came about to prevent a multi-billion antitrust lawsuit and now suffer as a result. They’re essentially the convertible minivan from Top Gear :
 

 

The mutilated Renault Espace and the Rays are both terrible ideas that only resulted in pain, hilarity, and failed hope in a concept.

[Gothamite]

1 hour ago, Sport said:

I don't know why everyone keeps searching for other reasons when this very large, very valid reason explains the entirety of the problem. 

 

The very large, very valid reason is that the Rays are the third most popular MLB team in their own market.  Even when they're winning.

 

That's not the stadium's fault.  It's the expansion committee's.

[SFGiants58]

I suggest that people read Stadium for Rent. When dealing with all the Tampa/St. Pete BS, it’s an important resource that’s well-researched and carries a lot of still-relevant information.

[LMU]

34 minutes ago, Gothamite said:

 

The very large, very valid reason is that the Rays are the third most popular MLB team in their own market.  Even when they're winning.

 

That's not the stadium's fault.  It's the expansion committee's.

Especially when you consider that the Yankees' spring training/low-A stadium is in a better location in the Tampa Bay market than the Trop.