Stadium/Arena Saga Omnibus

[SFGiants58]

I liked Coors Field’s location because I could get to it easily through a light rail route and walking. It’s only a five-ten minute walk from Union Station to Coors. Likewise, I’m glad it’s an easy commuter train or bus ride to Willie Mays Park when I’m in the Bay Area. When I lived in Portland, it was not difficult to find bus and light rail routes out to the Rose Garden. 
 

I was annoyed at how bus routes were the only public transit way to get to Miller Park and Bradley Center. Sure, bars in the city/neighboring cities did shuttles to Miller Park and the arenas (which I did for Miller, since I lived exactly one block from the arenas and had to put up with the construction closure of Juneau Ave), but it wasn’t the same. I’ll always support putting your stadiums in areas with public transit infrastructure in place. Likewise, building public transit infrastructure around a stadium site should be mandated if it doesn’t exist.  
 

Anything to avoid this dickery:

 

 

Richfield Coliseum, what a big oopsie. Nature reclaimed the site quickly after the demolition.

[dont care]

2 hours ago, QCS said:

If American cities weren't so aggressively anti-pedestrian this wouldn't be an issue. Stadia should be located in downtown locations, and if not, the teams should be on the hook for connecting them to public transportation. Car culture has made things so unnecessarily difficult to traverse without taking on the burden of owning a car.

 

Teams having public transportation connected to their stadiums makes it easier for people to go and also reduces the pollution created by the massive amount of cars traveling to the arena. Public transportation is always a worthwhile investment.

Stadiums still wouldn’t be down town, there is a reason why new stadiums aren’t built down town and it isn’t because of “car culture” it’s because they the amount of real estate they take up it’s not worth it.

[sky1324]

20 minutes ago, dont care said:

Stadiums still wouldn’t be down town, there is a reason why new stadiums aren’t built down town and it isn’t because of “car culture” it’s because they the amount of real estate they take up it’s not worth it.

Plenty of brand-new arenas are downtown. Just recently, the Warriors opened a brand-new arena in San Francisco, Atlanta's massive soccer and football stadium is very close to downtown (though not exactly), and teams generally recognize that the closer a stadium is to a population center, the better it will draw.

 

Car culture has directly led to the absurd suburban sprawl that America faces, which enables the placement of stadiums so far away from urban centers.

[Dilbert]

I think the stadiums should be downtown or as close to downtown as possible. Its like how MLS tried going out to the burbs for a while with Frisco, Commerce City, Bridgeview, and Chester. It just isnt the same and can be difficult to get to with public transportation.

[DEAD!]

With probably the exception of NFL stadiums, it is probably best that arenas and stadiums be built at urban areas. A few years back, I was driving or taking transit downtown once a week on a weeknight, and, while there was traffic, it was going generally against the rush-hour flow. I would have dread it if an arena or stadium was built at a suburb on the other side of town. I would be battling rush hour traffic from people that live on the other side of town. 

One thing I have noticed from some arenas is how some owners also decide to build a condo or retail tower beside the arena. 

I think a NFL stadium would be only exception because games generally happen on a weekend/once a week and it's treated more like going to an amusement park. Sure, any public transit is welcome and should provide "event schedule/rush hour"  level services, but, if the game is on a Sunday afternoon, you are probably going to be scheduling the whole day around the game anyways. 

 

[McCall]

On 5/29/2021 at 12:15 PM, ManillaToad said:

hearing rumors of the A's moving to Branson, Missouri

Waterfront stadium on Table Rock Lake? With the hills as a backdrop? Nice.

 

Although, (and I know this was a joke), the Springfield Cardinals would still outdraw the A's.

[OaklandIsBack]

On 5/25/2021 at 10:08 PM, FiddySicks said:

They planned on it originally, but the stability of the land (the stadium is right next to a river, hence the RiverCats name) came into question and nixed those plans. Access is pretty poor (everything is here, really), too. It’s also technically in an entirely different city (South Sacramento, CA), and that’s caused more problems for that site than they had originally foreseen. 
 

The feasibility of fully expanding that entire entire area has been done to death already and the answer for pretty much the last century is a pretty resounding no. One of the reasons it’s sat empty for no joke the last 100 years is because it was used as a defacto toxic waste dump site going WAY back. 

 

What about the old arena site? The foundation is already in place!

[Red Comet]

11 hours ago, DEAD! said:

With probably the exception of NFL stadiums, it is probably best that arenas and stadiums be built at urban areas. A few years back, I was driving or taking transit downtown once a week on a weeknight, and, while there was traffic, it was going generally against the rush-hour flow. I would have dread it if an arena or stadium was built at a suburb on the other side of town. I would be battling rush hour traffic from people that live on the other side of town. 

One thing I have noticed from some arenas is how some owners also decide to build a condo or retail tower beside the arena. 

I think a NFL stadium would be only exception because games generally happen on a weekend/once a week and it's treated more like going to an amusement park. Sure, any public transit is welcome and should provide "event schedule/rush hour"  level services, but, if the game is on a Sunday afternoon, you are probably going to be scheduling the whole day around the game anyways. 

 

I was about to say, anyone thinking you could plop a place like Lambeau, Gillette or Arrowhead in the middle of a downtown has a couple of screws loose. Baseball or hockey/basketball? Sure, as long as the city in question has the infrastructure to handle transportation of people to and from the game and there’s a decent nightlife to be had after the game. Some places, however, would be disastrous to have a downtown stadium right now. Like Kansas City as the only mass transit we currently have aside from the bus system is a 2 mile long streetcar from the River Market to the WWI Museum. Trying to get 30-40,000 (maybe more like 20-30,000 but still) people to a baseball stadium for 80 or so nights a year would be a disaster right now so naturally the idea is under consideration. 
 

Of course, as for the Rays right now? Looks like Nashville is back on the menu, boys. If this move does happen, my guess is that the Tigers or whatever the team in Cleveland is called by then and the relocated Rays would switch divisions. First they need a stadium, however. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Red Comet

[mania]

On 5/24/2021 at 2:19 PM, Ridleylash said:

Honestly, though, I feel like this whole thing does more to discredit the location for the Trop over the actual support the region has for baseball. The Rays do well for a smaller-market team locally when it comes to viewership, so I don't think it's the overall region that's the problem here, necessarily.

 

I really, really wish this board would stop propogating this lie.

 

They don't.

 

They don't do as poorly as say, the Marlins, but they're not a top watched team by any metric.

[DukeofChutney]

1 hour ago, Red Comet said:

I was about to say, anyone thinking you could plop a place like Lambeau, Gillette or Arrowhead in the middle of a downtown has a couple of screws loose. Baseball or hockey/basketball? Sure, as long as the city in question has the infrastructure to handle transportation of people to and from the game and there’s a decent nightlife to be had after the game. Some places, however, would be disastrous to have a downtown stadium right now. Like Kansas City as the only mass transit we currently have aside from the bus system is a 2 mile long streetcar from the River Market to the WWI Museum. Trying to get 30-40,000 (maybe more like 20-30,000 but still) people to a baseball stadium for 80 or so nights a year would be a disaster right now so naturally the idea is under consideration. 
 

Of course, as for the Rays right now? Looks like Nashville is back on the menu, boys. If this move does happen, my guess is that the Tigers or whatever the team in Cleveland is called by then and the relocated Rays would switch divisions. First they need a stadium, however. 

Putting the Trop lease to one side for a moment - do they have any facility in the Nashville area for the Rays to move to in the mean time?

(Naturally, they do have time to build the stadium by the time the Rays can leave the Trop).

 

Geographically, Cleveland makes more sense as the team displaced for Nashville going to the Central. But, apart from logistics and division identity, I wouldn't be surprised if the Rays stayed in the East for the short term. Same would apply if they went to Montreal - the city works in either division. (Whether that makes it right, is a whole other matter! )

 

Pardon my limited knowledge on this, but could Detroit or Cleveland just refuse to move? Or does the league reserve the right to move a teams division?

 

[The_Admiral]

On 5/27/2021 at 2:05 PM, Sport said:

Let me ask, is 35 minutes a typical travel distance for Brewers fans or is that on the higher end? I feel like even situated where it is Miller Park is pretty centrally located.

 

More or less, yeah, unless you're coming from Here There Be Monsters territory, which a fair deal of Brewers fans are.

 

With Miller Park, the issue isn't location or traffic -- Milwaukee traffic has always struck me as rather light compared to what I've witnessed in Chicago -- but rather some absolutely horrific ingress/egress issues. That place has to have the worst parking lot bottlenecks east of Dodger Stadium. Getting out has been a miserable experience each time I've gone to a game there. That's where Milwaukee's lack of public transit hits you -- everyone drove to the game and they're all pretty much leaving at once.

[Red Comet]

30 minutes ago, DukeofChutney said:

Pardon my limited knowledge on this, but could Detroit or Cleveland just refuse to move? Or does the league reserve the right to move a teams division?

 

 

I remember that the Royals were approached to move to the NL Central before the Brewers but they refused and then you had the situation with the Astros this past decade. So, the team would have to consent to relocating to another division or league. 

[DukeofChutney]

36 minutes ago, Red Comet said:

 

I remember that the Royals were approached to move to the NL Central before the Brewers but they refused and then you had the situation with the Astros this past decade. So, the team would have to consent to relocating to another division or league. 

Ah ok, thanks.

 

I guess there are compensations from the league for the team that moves too.  You can't blame a team for staying though  (keeping this generic) if you're in a decent divison that you have a 75% chance of winning, why move to a division that could reduce that to, say 50%.

Of couse if that move means that you'd sell more regular season tickets then that works but is that worth it at the expense of playoff prospects.

 

Anyway... I guess neither Detroit or Cleveland need to worry too much about it now. Not with this lease on the Trop still having a few years left in it.

[SFGiants58]

2 hours ago, mania said:

 

I really, really wish this board would stop propogating this lie.

 

They don't.

 

They don't do as poorly as say, the Marlins, but they're not a top watched team by any metric.

Ah yes, the ratings misinformation about how the Rays do “great ratings.”
 

In 2019, they were ranked #16, ahead of some truly terrible clubs (Pirates, Tigers, Rockies, Mariners) and clubs with screwy tv deals (Dodgers). The Marlins were at the bottom, of course. 
 

They’re not the “runaway ratings success” that people try to tell you they are. Again, ownership and the stadium situation are to blame for disincentivizing fan engagement.

[The_Admiral]

RSN ratings are tricky because you can toggle between gross number of households and market share depending on which argument you're trying to make at the moment. The Devils always have a small sliver of the pie, but a ratings point is worth more in the New York tri-state area than it is in Nashville, so even with bad ratings, the Devils still have pretty good ratings. In conclusion, New Jersey is a land of contrasts.

 

I've always understood the Rays' TV situation to be that their ratings are "good, considering," or rather that their television viewership is not commensurate with their woeful attendance, and if it were, there'd be even more of a problem than there is right now. 

[The_Admiral]

On 5/29/2021 at 9:46 PM, neo_prankster said:

Are you sure they're not going to Bronson, Missouri?

hey, fatty, I got a movie for ya: A Fridge Too Far!

[McCall]

5 hours ago, DukeofChutney said:

Putting the Trop lease to one side for a moment - do they have any facility in the Nashville area for the Rays to move to in the mean time?

(Naturally, they do have time to build the stadium by the time the Rays can leave the Trop).

 

Geographically, Cleveland makes more sense as the team displaced for Nashville going to the Central. But, apart from logistics and division identity, I wouldn't be surprised if the Rays stayed in the East for the short term. Same would apply if they went to Montreal - the city works in either division. (Whether that makes it right, is a whole other matter! )

 

Pardon my limited knowledge on this, but could Detroit or Cleveland just refuse to move? Or does the league reserve the right to move a teams division?

 

Before the addition of Arizona and Tampa Bay in 1998, Detroit was in the East and Cleveland was in the Central.

[Sec19Row53]

6 hours ago, the admiral said:

 

More or less, yeah, unless you're coming from Here There Be Monsters territory, which a fair deal of Brewers fans are.

 

With Miller Park, the issue isn't location or traffic -- Milwaukee traffic has always struck me as rather light compared to what I've witnessed in Chicago -- but rather some absolutely horrific ingress/egress issues. That place has to have the worst parking lot bottlenecks east of Dodger Stadium. Getting out has been a miserable experience each time I've gone to a game there. That's where Milwaukee's lack of public transit hits you -- everyone drove to the game and they're all pretty much leaving at once.

Just curious--do you expect 25-30,000 people to magically leave the same place at the same time? Of course we all drove to the game, as there's this institution known as tailgating. I've only known one local to complain about leaving the game. I'm sure there's more. If the team went back to the ceremonial opening and closing of the roof, it might lag the times of people leaving. I guess it's what I expect having grown up going to Lambeau. It's gonna take time to leave. Oh well??

[The_Admiral]

Plenty of daylight between "it's gonna take time to leave" and "insufficient infrastructure and the folly of only having one way to reach the premises." Any mass gathering takes time to leave. Getting out of a Brewers game is like eating crap for dessert.  I don't know to what extent they could fix it. There's not a transit culture in Wisconsin.

[SFGiants58]

23 minutes ago, the admiral said:

Plenty of daylight between "it's gonna take time to leave" and "insufficient infrastructure and the folly of only having one way to reach the premises." Any mass gathering takes time to leave. Getting out of a Brewers game is like eating crap for dessert.  I don't know to what extent they could fix it. There's not a transit culture in Wisconsin.

I remember all the people whining about the streetcars in Milwaukee, which started service during the last year I was there. I didn’t ride it, because I could comfortably walk to the places I really wanted to go. The most issues it gave me were construction noises when I was in the Third Ward.