Stadium/Arena Saga Omnibus

[Cujo]

1 minute ago, FiddySicks said:

At least Montreal actually had a  Major League team at one point

 

Which is a strike against Montreal since we already know it doesn't work.

 

Look at what happened when the NFL went back to St. Louis.

[GDAWG]

3 hours ago, McCall said:

Oh I'd say Vegas is probably one of the frontrunners for expansion if the A's stay put. There will be no expansion until the A's and Rays situations are resolved, so if they miss out in relocation, expansion is a high probability. Them and Nashville may be 1-2 with Montreal a close 3rd, expansionwise.

 

I think we are getting some sort of resolution with the A's over the next two months.  Next month, the A's exclusivity on the Howard Terminal project ends and in June, the Nevada Legislative Session brakes until 2025 and the A's are trying to get funding for a new ballpark in Las Vegas.

 

Oakland A's form lobbying group ahead of possible Las Vegas move (ktnv.com)

 

So that ends in June.  We should know by then what happens with the A's.  It may take longer with the Rays.  

[FinsUp1214]

38 minutes ago, FiddySicks said:

Salt Lake is way more of a pipe dream than Montreal. At least Montreal actually had a  Major League team at one point. Montreal has more than a million and a half people. Salt Lake has less than 200,000 people. It’s actually a miracle they have a basketball. They’re somehow a less appealing option than even Sacramento. 

Well, yes, the city itself has just under 200,000, but SLC metro has about 1.25 million, and the greater Wasatch Front area (Ogden to Provo, with SLC located around the middle) has around 2.7 million. The cities along the range - where the wide majority of the state’s population resides - are nearly connected back to back the whole way down, so pulling the population of just one can be a little deceiving without considering the context of how close the most populous cities in Utah are to each other. The Wasatch is projected to keep on growing over the course of the next few years, as well.

 

THAT BEING SAID, HOWEVER…..I do agree to some extent that expansion to SLC is a bit of a pipe dream, for now at least. Don’t get me wrong, I’m a huge baseball fan and would be thrilled to have the Major Leagues in my backyard here, but I also don’t think SLC is ready quite yet. As much as I’ve just touted the SLC area’s growth, I do think it needs to grow further more before I’m comfortable believing there’s a sustainable fanbase to draw from. There’s no doubt fans would be hot out of the gate - just look how we support the Jazz season after season - but basketball arenas are, by sheer numbers, easier to fill and sell out than Major League ballparks night in and night out. The sustainability of a team placed in SLC before the numbers are there, as opposed to the plausibility of fan interest, is where my hesitation lies for the time being.

 

 

[FiddySicks]

I always forget to compare population to metro population, so yeah, my bad. I actually didn’t realize the greater SLC area had grown quite that big yet. That’s significantly larger than Reno, but that comes with the caveat that Reno is just over the mountains from the large Northern California metro areas. Whatever. It’s still a Great Basin urban area. 
 

But even with that, it’s still comparable to, at best, somewhere like Sacramento. And even with Sac you still have a city proper that’s about twice the size and a metro area that borders the Bay Area, which is an absolute behemoth. 

[tBBP]

2 hours ago, WestCoastBias said:

Some renderings for a potential stadium in Salt Lake City were released as well..

 

 

 

 

 

It's been a while since I last been to SLC, but just based off those three flutes: hypothetical as all that is, are they eyeballing either the golf course next to the refineries and railyard down off 3300 or (last I knew) that empty patch next to the refineries further up the 15 between it, the beltway and Redwood Rd? Those are about the only two open patches of grass I can remember (& of course that was nearly three years ago so ain't no telling what they may have done with those patches of land by now).

[GDAWG]

Somewhat related:

 

Diamondbacks in Active Talks on New Phoenix-Area Stadium (frontofficesports.com)

 

Basically the two options are: significant renovations to Chase Field or a new location in the Phoenix metro area.  If Chase Field renovations do not happen, it will be interesting to see which of the metro cities wants them.  

[who do you think]

22 minutes ago, GDAWG said:

Somewhat related:

 

Diamondbacks in Active Talks on New Phoenix-Area Stadium (frontofficesports.com)

 

Basically the two options are: significant renovations to Chase Field or a new location in the Phoenix metro area.  If Chase Field renovations do not happen, it will be interesting to see which of the metro cities wants them.  

 

And they need ("need") a new stadium because why exactly?

[Walk-Off]

On 4/13/2023 at 1:07 AM, tBBP said:

It's been a while since I last been to SLC, but just based off those three flutes: hypothetical as all that is, are they eyeballing either the golf course next to the refineries and railyard down off 3300 or (last I knew) that empty patch next to the refineries further up the 15 between it, the beltway and Redwood Rd? Those are about the only two open patches of grass I can remember (& of course that was nearly three years ago so ain't no telling what they may have done with those patches of land by now).

 

According to this SLTrib.com article, the Big League Utah group being led by Gail Miller (longtime Jazz owner Larry's widow) is, for now, seeking to build an MLB park within the Power District -- a redevelopment of a 100-acre property located on Salt Lake City's west side, bound by the Jordan River to the east and both North Temple Street and a light rail line to the north, and owned by Rocky Mountain Power (which is itself helping to redevelop the parcel).

 

Between Gail Miller's deep pockets and the seemingly well-thought-out initial ballpark plan, I think that Big League Utah is off to a great start and, therefore, the likes of the Portland Diamond Project and the Music City Baseball effort in Nashville would be foolish to underestimate this new initiative from the Beehive State.

[tBBP]

3 hours ago, Walk-Off said:

 

According to this SLTrib.com article, the Big League Utah group being led by Gail Miller (longtime Jazz owner Larry's widow) is, for now, seeking to build an MLB park within the Power District -- a redevelopment of a 100-acre property located on Salt Lake City's west side, bound by the Jordan River to the east and both North Temple Street and a light rail line to the north, and owned by Rocky Mountain Power (which is itself helping to redevelop the parcel).

 

Between Gail Miller's deep pockets and the seemingly well-thought-out initial ballpark plan, I think that Big League Utah is off to a great start and, therefore, the likes of the Portland Diamond Project and the Music City Baseball effort in Nashville would be foolish to underestimate this new initiative from the Beehive State.

 

Ah, so right next to the ABF terminal and across the street from Love's...my initial guesses weren't far off, then! (Right, um, ballpark...wrong neighborhood. But it is along Redwood like I figured.)

 

Salt Lake is an interesting place. The couple times I've been there, I saw money on top of money being thrown around (I was astounded at hoe ridiculous the cost of living is out there), so the fact that a group—headed by a former MLB player, no less—now wants to build a "mixed-use development" on a current industrial site doesn't surprise me one lick. That said, I don't know that they could've picked a better site if they tried. To be right off the main freeway (well really two since the 80 junctions with the 215 beltway right there) AND be right along a light rail line, meaning tranportation/transit infrastructure is already right there, will be huge. And according to that article, they're due to break ground next week. (This sounds almost exactly like what Nashville did in building what's now Bridgestone Arena way back when...they built that in hopes of attracting some big-league team; along came a new one, the Predators.)

 

The more I chew on this, the more I'm already quickly convinced, like you, that this thing may gain traction REAL fast. (Plus it'd give Colorado a team closer to it rather than being out there 600 miles from the next closest competitor...like SLC still ain't 500 miles away, lol.) AND, the plan they put forth is open-air rather than domed/enclosed/retractable roof, so it'd be...cheaper, in a way?...to build.

 

Might be time for the concepters to start concepting some ideas around here...!

[gosioux76]

5 hours ago, Walk-Off said:

Between Gail Miller's deep pockets and the seemingly well-thought-out initial ballpark plan, I think that Big League Utah is off to a great start and, therefore, the likes of the Portland Diamond Project and the Music City Baseball effort in Nashville would be foolish to underestimate this new initiative from the Beehive State.

 This right here is the truth.

 

Unlike other bids, this SLC group has come out of the gates with a seemingly well-capitalized owner front and center and a practical stadium bid that appears more than just a bunch of fantastical renderings. 

 

By contrast, the Portland Diamond Project has never revealed who would own an expansion team there or who was financing their effort. They produced renderings so ridiculous (a gondola from the stadium to seemingly nowhere, in-stadium bicycle parking) that it's hard to take them seriously. More than that,  after at least five years they have yet to pinpoint a location for a stadium. At this point, they're little more than an apparel brand. 

[LMU]

The real question… at 4,200 ft, would it be in poor taste for a community that frowns on smoking to procure a humidor?

[FinsUp1214]

I will say this: Gail Miller brings an instant clout and credibility to an SLC ownership bid that few other potential owners could. She’s one of the most beloved figures in Utah, has contributed greatly to the community, knows the community inside and out, and she was very highly regarded while owner of the Jazz. There’s nobody, really, that I would rather have heading a bid than her. The thoroughness and practicality of the bid and Stadium plan is more reassuring, and is nothing short of what I would expect from Miller.

 

As I’ve already stated, my hesitations with the SLC push lie solely with whether or not the growth of the population has reached the right level quite yet over any other factor. I very much want a team here and no doubt would support it myself, but I also want it to sustained long-term. My hope is that, if it were to ever hypothetically happen, the team could be sustained by the population’s projected growth as time passes, as opposed to waiting for it to reach a certain point. There’s a bit of a “if you build it, they will come” feel to that, and being a more cautious person by nature, I’m a little on the “I hope they come” side of things. But, again, of all people to pull this off, I think Gail Miller would be the one to do it. If she thinks it’s possible - and has actually put together a plan to do it - I’m willing to see where it goes.

[gosioux76]

24 minutes ago, FinsUp1214 said:

I will say this: Gail Miller brings an instant clout and credibility to an SLC ownership bid that few other potential owners could. She’s one of the most beloved figures in Utah, has contributed greatly to the community, knows the community inside and out, and she was very highly regarded while owner of the Jazz. There’s nobody, really, that I would rather have heading a bid than her. The thoroughness and practicality of the bid and Stadium plan is more reassuring, and is nothing short of what I would expect from Miller.

 

As I’ve already stated, my hesitations with the SLC push lie solely with whether or not the growth of the population has reached the right level quite yet over any other factor. I very much want a team here and no doubt would support it myself, but I also want it to sustained long-term. My hope is that, if it were to ever hypothetically happen, the team could be sustained by the population’s projected growth as time passes, as opposed to waiting for it to reach a certain point. There’s a bit of a “if you build it, they will come” feel to that, and being a more cautious person by nature, I’m a little on the “I hope they come” side of things. But, again, of all people to pull this off, I think Gail Miller would be the one to do it. If she thinks it’s possible - and has actually put together a plan to do it - I’m willing to see where it goes.

There's certainly doing their damndest to make a compelling sales pitch. This passage from Jeff Passan's story on ESPN yesterday was pretty compelling:

Quote

Leaders of the Salt Lake City group highlighted a media market larger than that of four current major league teams: San Diego, Kansas City, Cincinnati and Milwaukee. They stressed Utah's significant growth, as its population of about 3.3 million swelled by a higher percentage than any state from 2010 to 2020, according to the Census Bureau, and the Wasatch Front population -- stretching from Ogden to Provo -- is around 2.7 million. On top of that, the group said, Utah's 2.4% unemployment rate in February was the fourth lowest in the country, with an economy trumpeted in recent years as among the strongest in the United States.

 

When you consider that KC combined statistical area (2.5 million) and the Cincinnati CSA (2.3 million) are both smaller than the SLC CSA (which includes  including Provo and Ogden) and have supported NFL, MLB and MLS for decades, I'm not sure why SLC, which is still growing, would be so easily dismissed. 

 

[FiddySicks]

That… Seems misleading to me. San Diego has the added benefit of being just under Los Angeles and Orange County, which is the second biggest metro area in the United States, and Milwaukee isn’t very far from the Chicagoland area, which is the third largest. 
 

I would be more convinced if the Salt Lake region wasn’t legitimately 500 miles away from the nearest large metro location. 

[McCall]

Just now, FiddySicks said:

That… Seems misleading to me. San Diego has the added benefit of being just under Los Angeles and Orange County, which is the second biggest metro area in the United States, and Milwaukee isn’t very far from the Chicagoland area, which is the third largest. 
 

I would be more convinced if the Salt Lake region wasn’t legitimately 500 miles away from the nearest large metro location. 

Plus Kansas City essentially draws some from Kansas, Nebraska, probably some of Iowa, even a little bit of Missouri. Salt Lake would probably just draw from that part of Utah, I imagine. South Utah, as well, but I'm not sure how populated that is.

[Sec19Row53]

16 minutes ago, FiddySicks said:

That… Seems misleading to me. San Diego has the added benefit of being just under Los Angeles and Orange County, which is the second biggest metro area in the United States, and Milwaukee isn’t very far from the Chicagoland area, which is the third largest. 
 

I would be more convinced if the Salt Lake region wasn’t legitimately 500 miles away from the nearest large metro location. 

Sure, but unless it's the Cubs or Sox, I don't think people from Chicagoland are coming to Am Fam Field.

[gosioux76]

15 minutes ago, FiddySicks said:

That… Seems misleading to me. San Diego has the added benefit of being just under Los Angeles and Orange County, which is the second biggest metro area in the United States, and Milwaukee isn’t very far from the Chicagoland area, which is the third largest. 
 

I would be more convinced if the Salt Lake region wasn’t legitimately 500 miles away from the nearest large metro location. 

This is why, in comparing CSA (combined statistical area) data, I excluded San Diego and Milwaukee, due to their proximity to those other large metros. 

 

It's also why I used CSA instead of MSA, because it pulls from the region outside the immediate metro area. Comparing it to Cincy or KC is much more practical in this case.

 

I don't disagree that SLC's relative isolation should be considered, but it's already, right now, larger than the KC or Cincy CSA's and continues to be a magnet for new population. It's not slowing down; it can only get bigger. 

[FinsUp1214]

30 minutes ago, McCall said:

Plus Kansas City essentially draws some from Kansas, Nebraska, probably some of Iowa, even a little bit of Missouri. Salt Lake would probably just draw from that part of Utah, I imagine. South Utah, as well, but I'm not sure how populated that is.

The Southwestern corner of the state, with St. George (around 180,000 population in its metro area) and Cedar City (about 35,000 population in the city), is the only notably populated area in the South end of the state. The Southeast has very little people, as does the central part of the state immediately below the Wasatch Front. 
 

There’s a chance SW Utah could add support - it’s still rabid Jazz territory down there - but there’s also a chance they’d support a Las Vegas team instead if it co-existed, which would be a little closer in proximity. I think SLC would draw more sure support from Southern Idaho (whatever parts of the state aren’t Mariners territory) and Wyoming, judging by some Jazz support I’ve seen passing through both areas. Neither are the kind of support Kansas/Nebraska/Missouri is to the Royals of course, but it’s something outside of the SLC/Greater Wasatch area.

[Ferdinand Cesarano]

13 hours ago, Cujo said:

13 hours ago, FiddySicks said:

At least Montreal actually had a  Major League team at one point

 

Which is a strike against Montreal

 

Milwaukee, Kansas City, Seattle, and Washington say hello.

 

 

13 hours ago, Cujo said:

...since we already know it doesn't work.

 

No.  We know that one particular owner couldn't make it work.  That says nothing about how another owner would operate.

 

 

13 hours ago, Cujo said:

Look at what happened when the NFL went back to St. Louis.

 

Irrelevant.  That had to do partly with the idiosyncracies of one individual, and partly with a rare opportunity to right a historic wrong by bringing the team back to Los Angeles.  It has no bearing on how a different ownership group might fare in that city.

 

 

The important point is that each case presents a unique set of circumstances.  No valid generalisations can be made, as any given case is unlike the others.

[Sport]

 

11 minutes ago, gosioux76 said:

This is why, in comparing CSA (combined statistical area) data, I excluded San Diego and Milwaukee, due to their proximity to those other large metros. 

 

It's also why I used CSA instead of MSA, because it pulls from the region outside the immediate metro area. Comparing it to Cincy or KC is much more practical in this case.

 

I don't disagree that SLC's relative isolation should be considered, but it's already, right now, larger than the KC or Cincy CSA's and continues to be a magnet for new population. It's not slowing down; it can only get bigger. 

 

Still misleading with Cincinnati's CSA. By definition SLC CSA might be larger than Cincinnati's CSA, but in practice Cincinnati's region is larger. Our CSA doesn't seem to include Dayton's, which is silly because Dayton is right there, and this may be redrawn in the next census anyways as the two continue to merge in the middle. That's a million more people within an hour's drive of the ballpark that aren't included in our CSA. Cincinnati is also in the middle of the trapezoid of Columbus, Indianapolis, Louisville, and Lexington. That's another 6ish million people within two hours drive of the ballpark. I'm not saying SLC wouldn't do well in MLB, but there's more people here than a simple CSA search would suggest.