Expos Rights question

[mjrbaseball]

Revisionist history is everywhere in sports. The Yankees celebrated their centennial in 2003, totally ignoring their first two seasons (1901 and 1902) in Baltimore. This in spite of the fact that it was the American League (specifically league president Ban Johnson) that instituted the move, not the team owners.

[DaytonBlue]

IMHO, the Cleveland deal wasn't a big problem because it was all worked out at the time the Ravens were created.

What screws up the Jets situation is that they adopted the same name as the old team that was there. No one in St. Louis mixes up football Cardinal and Rams history.

If the Coyotes move to Quebec City, they should just be deactivated and a new Nordiques team created. I'd even do an expansion draft, as crazy as that sounds. Then Quebec and Winnipeg could recognize their history more without having to say its theirs. (Colorado doesn't acknowledge the first Nordiques at all, AFAIK.)

Puerto Rico does it a bit different. Teams always leave history and the name behind, so there have been four or so versions of the Santruce Crabbers.

[SHaMROCK]

Revisionist history is everywhere in sports. The Yankees celebrated their centennial in 2003, totally ignoring their first two seasons (1901 and 1902) in Baltimore. This in spite of the fact that it was the American League (specifically league president Ban Johnson) that instituted the move, not the team owners.

I can't believe you guys get so worked up about this. Please, don't follow the CFL. In the record books of the CFL the Montreal Allouettes v1.0, Montreal Concord, Montreal Allouettes v2.0, Baltimore Colts, Baltimore CFL Colts, Baltimore CFLers, Baltimore Stallions and Montreal Allouettes v3.0 are all listed as the same franchise with the same records. Same with the Ottawa Rough Riders v1.0, Ottawa Renegades and the Ottawa Rough Riders v2.0 (2013).

[IceCap]

If the Coyotes move to Quebec City, they should just be deactivated and a new Nordiques team created. I'd even do an expansion draft, as crazy as that sounds. Then Quebec and Winnipeg could recognize their history more without having to say its theirs. (Colorado doesn't acknowledge the first Nordiques at all, AFAIK.)

The Avs have Nordiques banners hanning in the Pepsi Centre.

[GeorgesL]

Youppi

The first cross sports mascot. I'm glad he survived.

Wait a minute... What? Cross-sports mascot?

When the Expos left town, Youppi! went to the Canadiens.

Yep....one of the greatest untold sports stories.

About the only thing salvaged from the Expos, knowing MLB killed them systematically for a decade, from the 1994 strike to those fire sales to Puerto Rico.

I know MY Expos would never play a home game in Puerto Rico. But the MLB Expos would. How dare they.

[DaytonBlue]

If the Coyotes move to Quebec City, they should just be deactivated and a new Nordiques team created. I'd even do an expansion draft, as crazy as that sounds. Then Quebec and Winnipeg could recognize their history more without having to say its theirs. (Colorado doesn't acknowledge the first Nordiques at all, AFAIK.)

The Avs have Nordiques banners hanning in the Pepsi Centre.

That's cool since many teams these days pretend their history didn't exist before the move.

[Still MIGHTY]

If the Coyotes move to Quebec City, they should just be deactivated and a new Nordiques team created. I'd even do an expansion draft, as crazy as that sounds. Then Quebec and Winnipeg could recognize their history more without having to say its theirs. (Colorado doesn't acknowledge the first Nordiques at all, AFAIK.)

The Avs have Nordiques banners hanning in the Pepsi Centre.

And the Coyotes have Hull's, Hawerchuk's, and Steen's retired numbers in the Jets Red/White/Blue in their ring of honor. (Speaking of which, that will be realllllyyyy awkward at the Coyotes home opener against Winnipeg 2.0. Probably my main reason for going, besides wanting to watch hockey. ) Hell, the Coyotes retired Hawerchuk's Winnipeg #10 in Phoenix.

Coyotes definitely honor their Jets history, and the Avalanche honor their Nordiques history.

That doesn't help the situation of the Thrashers/Jets trying to connect to the old Jets or any teams' potential move to Quebec/resurrection of the Nordiques.

[larrypep]

Wow, I didn't realize the OKC Thunder left behind the Sonics history in Seattle. They really did that, with no guarantees the NBA will return there? That seems screwy to me, unlike the Cleveland deal where the franchise remained in Cleveland (albeit, dormant) while the Ravens continued in 1997 with all of the staff/players from the Cleveland Browns of 1996. At least with the Browns/Ravens situation, there was a valid franchise in Cleveland that contained/maintained the records. There is no NBA franchise in Seattle.

[JohnnySeoul]

Wow, I didn't realize the OKC Thunder left behind the Sonics history in Seattle. They really did that, with no guarantees the NBA will return there? That seems screwy to me, unlike the Cleveland deal where the franchise remained in Cleveland (albeit, dormant) while the Ravens continued in 1997 with all of the staff/players from the Cleveland Browns of 1996. At least with the Browns/Ravens situation, there was a valid franchise in Cleveland that contained/maintained the records. There is no NBA franchise in Seattle.

I like that the city of Seattle gets to keep all of it. I wish the Oilers would've immediately changed their name with the move to Tennessee and left their history to the city of Houston. Some teams (Rams, Cardinals) move around so much (both on their 3rd city) that they lose that "roots" feel, but I feel like teams such as the SuperSonics and the Oilers should be given the chance to return to their city.

I also wish the Jazz would've left their history in New Orleans (Utah and "jazz" just seems dumb) and the Hornets would've left their history in Charlotte. Oh well....you win some, lose some.

[NatsFan2004]

I have never understood why people seem to fight to the intellectual death over "franchise history".

As a Nationals fan, I could give a rat's ass about what happened in Montreal. It didn't happen in Washington. It's not the same team to the fans of Washington. Montreal should keep that history and honor it in their own way. Just because the records that were achieved in one town aren't associated with an active franchise doesn't mean that they're any less a part of that sport's history or that they shouldn't be honored as a part of the game.

IMO, ALL franchises should leave behind their history when they move to a new city as in the Cleveland situation. They should be treated as new teams from the beginning in that city and allow that team to associate with the records achieved in that city by previous teams.

[Claystation360]

So Nats Fan.. are you saying the Redskins didn't start in Boston as the Braves in the 32 because it wasn't Washington? Or that the Wizards didn't start in Chicago and move Baltimore as the Bullets because it wasn't Washington ? And I guess the Twins and Rangers don't matter anymore because they are else where. even thou their histories are traced to Washington ?

[sc49erfan15]

I also wish the Jazz would've left their history in New Orleans (Utah and "jazz" just seems dumb) and the Hornets would've left their history in Charlotte. Oh well....you win some, lose some.

I don't know if you were suggesting that the team nicknames should have stayed the same (which would've been great, Hornets > Bobcats) or that New Orleans/Charlotte should honor Jazz/Hornets records, respectively.

If it was that the Bobcats should count Hornets records/seasons in their history, that's completely absurd. The Hornets and Bobcats are two completely different franchises, neither has any connection to the other save the fact that they are both basketball teams and play home games in Charlotte.

[JohnnySeoul]

I also wish the Jazz would've left their history in New Orleans (Utah and "jazz" just seems dumb) and the Hornets would've left their history in Charlotte. Oh well....you win some, lose some.

I don't know if you were suggesting that the team nicknames should have stayed the same (which would've been great, Hornets > Bobcats) or that New Orleans/Charlotte should honor Jazz/Hornets records, respectively.

If it was that the Bobcats should count Hornets records/seasons in their history, that's completely absurd. The Hornets and Bobcats are two completely different franchises, neither has any connection to the other save the fact that they are both basketball teams and play home games in Charlotte.

No more "completely absurb" than the future Seattle franchise that will inherit the SuperSonics history, records, seasons, and etc.

[Billy B]

I also wish the Jazz would've left their history in New Orleans (Utah and "jazz" just seems dumb) and the Hornets would've left their history in Charlotte. Oh well....you win some, lose some.

I don't know if you were suggesting that the team nicknames should have stayed the same (which would've been great, Hornets > Bobcats) or that New Orleans/Charlotte should honor Jazz/Hornets records, respectively.

If it was that the Bobcats should count Hornets records/seasons in their history, that's completely absurd. The Hornets and Bobcats are two completely different franchises, neither has any connection to the other save the fact that they are both basketball teams and play home games in Charlotte.

No more "completely absurb" than the future Seattle franchise that will inherit the SuperSonics history, records, seasons, and etc.

And that would also be absurd because if a new team ever comes to Seattle it will have absolutely no connection to the Sonics other than the fact that they both play basketball in the same city. The Sonics are the Thunder. Kevin Durant played in Seattle then moved to Oklahoma City with the franchise. No matter what they choose to say is the official history, that's what happened. Having them continue as the Sonics and keep those records would be absurd.

[Perfect Zero]

So Nats Fan.. are you saying the Redskins didn't start in Boston as the Braves in the 32 because it wasn't Washington? Or that the Wizards didn't start in Chicago and move Baltimore as the Bullets because it wasn't Washington ? And I guess the Twins and Rangers don't matter anymore because they are else where. even thou their histories are traced to Washington ?

The Rangers' history may link them to Washington, but there is very little said about that team. Most Rangers fans would say that the team's history starts in 1972. Nobody here cares about the team before the move, otherwise the organization would make a big deal about people like Ted Williams and Frank Howard. I'd venture to say that the majority of Rangers fans don't even know that this is the fiftieth year of the franchise. I hear the team didn't want to bother with it this year because they are going all out for the fortieth year in Arlington. Let Washington have it's history in the 60's; the Rangers won't be using it any time soon.

[JohnnySeoul]

I also wish the Jazz would've left their history in New Orleans (Utah and "jazz" just seems dumb) and the Hornets would've left their history in Charlotte. Oh well....you win some, lose some.

I don't know if you were suggesting that the team nicknames should have stayed the same (which would've been great, Hornets > Bobcats) or that New Orleans/Charlotte should honor Jazz/Hornets records, respectively.

If it was that the Bobcats should count Hornets records/seasons in their history, that's completely absurd. The Hornets and Bobcats are two completely different franchises, neither has any connection to the other save the fact that they are both basketball teams and play home games in Charlotte.

No more "completely absurb" than the future Seattle franchise that will inherit the SuperSonics history, records, seasons, and etc.

And that would also be absurd because if a new team ever comes to Seattle it will have absolutely no connection to the Sonics other than the fact that they both play basketball in the same city. The Sonics are the Thunder. Kevin Durant played in Seattle then moved to Oklahoma City with the franchise. No matter what they choose to say is the official history, that's what happened. Having them continue as the Sonics and keep those records would be absurd.

But it is ultimately irrelevant whether or not it is considered "absurd" if and when the NBA makes it a part of their official history. Once they do that, it is fact and no debate can change that. The owner(s) of the Seattle SuperSonics left the franchise with the city of Seattle and took the current roster to Oklahoma City to start a BRAND NEW expansion franchise. Really no different from the Cleveland/Baltimore situation.

What I was saying about the Oilers, Jazz, and Hornets is that I wish the owners would've left the franchise to the city and started over in their new city.

[bosrs1]

So Nats Fan.. are you saying the Redskins didn't start in Boston as the Braves in the 32 because it wasn't Washington? Or that the Wizards didn't start in Chicago and move Baltimore as the Bullets because it wasn't Washington ? And I guess the Twins and Rangers don't matter anymore because they are else where. even thou their histories are traced to Washington ?

As a fan of a baseball and basketball team that were prolific in their moving over the years, and a hockey team with one of the most confusing histories in sports... I'd say histories prior to moves don't really matter to fans of existing teams. What the A's did in Philly or what the Kings did in Rochester as the Royals have little interest to me as an Oakland A's fan and a Sacramento Kings fan, and I don't even acknowledge any of the attempts to saddle the Sharks with any history before the day they first set skates on the ice at the Cow Palace. Just as if the A's moved to San Antonio or the Kings moved to Anaheim I would then no longer give a rats ass about them.

It's the main reason I'm an advocate of the Cleveland model. The only people that really care about a team's history, and more importantly still appreciate it, in a particular city are the people who live in the city where the history was made. You see it time and again, after a move, particularly after an identity change, there is very little if any acknowledgement by fans and organizations of what came before in another city.

[bosrs1]

Duplicate

[ltjets21]

I also wish the Jazz would've left their history in New Orleans (Utah and "jazz" just seems dumb) and the Hornets would've left their history in Charlotte. Oh well....you win some, lose some.

I don't know if you were suggesting that the team nicknames should have stayed the same (which would've been great, Hornets > Bobcats) or that New Orleans/Charlotte should honor Jazz/Hornets records, respectively.

If it was that the Bobcats should count Hornets records/seasons in their history, that's completely absurd. The Hornets and Bobcats are two completely different franchises, neither has any connection to the other save the fact that they are both basketball teams and play home games in Charlotte.

No more "completely absurb" than the future Seattle franchise that will inherit the SuperSonics history, records, seasons, and etc.

And that would also be absurd because if a new team ever comes to Seattle it will have absolutely no connection to the Sonics other than the fact that they both play basketball in the same city. The Sonics are the Thunder. Kevin Durant played in Seattle then moved to Oklahoma City with the franchise. No matter what they choose to say is the official history, that's what happened. Having them continue as the Sonics and keep those records would be absurd.

But it is ultimately irrelevant whether or not it is considered "absurd" if and when the NBA makes it a part of their official history. Once they do that, it is fact and no debate can change that. The owner(s) of the Seattle SuperSonics left the franchise with the city of Seattle and took the current roster to Oklahoma City to start a BRAND NEW expansion franchise. Really no different from the Cleveland/Baltimore situation.

What I was saying about the Oilers, Jazz, and Hornets is that I wish the owners would've left the franchise to the city and started over in their new city.

So you believe todays Cleveland Browns are stupid for taking the history from the old browns as well?

[NatsFan2004]

So Nats Fan.. are you saying the Redskins didn't start in Boston as the Braves in the 32 because it wasn't Washington? Or that the Wizards didn't start in Chicago and move Baltimore as the Bullets because it wasn't Washington ? And I guess the Twins and Rangers don't matter anymore because they are else where. even thou their histories are traced to Washington ?

I'm saying that the Boston Redskins =/= Washington Redskins. Yes, a team played there from 1932-36. Yes, there were records created there. No, those are not relevant to the Washington Redskins or their fans. They didn't happen in Washington.

I'm not denying the existence of the 1932-36 team or a link of the business franchise that connects the two teams. But as a practical matter, what the Redskins/Bullets/etc. did in their previous cities is of little concern to Washington fans.