Say it ain't so, Joe

[rams80]

This is why I hate people.

There's something completely -ed up about football. Anyone still disagree with that statement?

Oh I agree with that whole-heartedly. But that's what makes the sport so compellingly American.

[pmoehrin]

This is why I hate people.

There's something completely -ed up about football. Anyone still disagree with that statement?

Not football, just college football at select schools where people have lost touch with reality like cult members. Penn State would qualify as one of these locations based on the continuing amounts of crap that keeps getting spit out by their fans.

Most of the schools with huge football fanbases are also filled with fans that have never stepped on that callous outside of Saturdays in the fall. I've found many of these fans are the craziest and most out of touch with the fact that they're watching a game played by 20 year olds.

I just don't understand how people can be that intense over a team they don't even play for.

As I've said before a couple times I was a student manager for two years for a Division 1 basketball team, and we were a pretty good team and the alumni/boosters we had by in large were much older and very laid back, so we didn't have to deal too much with that cult like culture you hear about at other schools. But the people I hated being around the most were the people that seemed to live and die with the success of the program and had a hard opinion on everything the program did right or wrong.

And my attitude was like wait a minute. Are you getting up at 6 AM to go to practice? No. Do you know anybody on the team personally? No. Are you around the team in any way shape or form beyond being in the stands? No. Do you have any type of personal investment at all in team that goes beyond your own personal fandom? No. So then why are you intense about how well we do? If we win be happy, and if we lose life goes on. If your viewing it any differently then that and you have no vested personal interest beyond simply being a fan, there's something wrong with you.

And the other thing is that its almost always coming from people that never played past high school (if they even played in high school) which tells me most of the people like that are because they couldn't accept the fact that they themselves couldn't be pro or college athletes and are simply trying to live out those dreams vicariously through being a fan, which if your over the age of 20 is just flat out pathetic if your doing it to that degree.

[illwauk]

This is why I hate people.

There's something completely -ed up about football. Anyone still disagree with that statement?

Football has always been based on a very militaristic ideology... it even shows in the terminology (i.e. throwing a bomb from the shotgun to avoid the blitz)... so it really doesn't surprise me since military is all about groupthink and being militantly fanatical about what you're fighting for (regardless of how stupid that thing is... as we're seeing here).

At least that's how I'm looking at it

[Raysfan12]

This is why I hate people.

There's something completely -ed up about football. Anyone still disagree with that statement?

Football has always been based on a very militaristic ideology... it even shows in the terminology (i.e. throwing a bomb from the shotgun to avoid the blitz)... so it really doesn't surprise me since military is all about groupthink and being militantly fanatical about what you're fighting for (regardless of how stupid that thing is... as we're seeing here).

At least that's how I'm looking at it

+2, Football = Military strategy

[JQK]

"Fan"

Short for "Fanatic"

It's much like asking a muslim fanatic how blowing up people and killing innocents makes any kind of sense. You're not going to get a logical answer. Same with this situation. You ask a Penn State Fanatic how they can support a program and administration that willingly turned a blind eye to child rape, the answer you're gonna get is "FOOTBAAAAAWL! JOEPA!!!!"

Fanaticism and logic rarely go together.

[pmoehrin]

Fanaticism and logic rarely go together.

That's probably why I don't get it and probably never will.

I can understand the current players on Penn State being upset. I can understand the coaching staff being upset. Former players who played for Joe Paterno and who he helped can understand as well. Even the boosters who are upset that the NCAA just took their toy away from them I can sympathize with on some level.

But just casual observers, what reason do they have to be so upset? Your favorite team isn't going to be relevant for a few years. That's the worst thing that's happening to them. Let's just say the NCAA is completely unjustified in their decision. It still basically crying over spilt milk as it relates to your life or at least as it should.

[infrared41]

It's much like asking a muslim fanatic how blowing up people and killing innocents makes any kind of sense.

Learn something every day I guess.

[The_Admiral]

This is why I hate people.

There's something completely -ed up about football. Anyone still disagree with that statement?

Not football, just college football at select schools where people have lost touch with reality like cult members. Penn State would qualify as one of these locations based on the continuing amounts of crap that keeps getting spit out by their fans.

Yeah, about that...

[pictures]

Seriously though, I disagree. I think it's all football. Cover high school football for a year or two and you'll agree. Players are taught from day one that life begins and ends with their coach. It's weird. I'm not saying all players buy into it, but enough of them do.

There's something completely -ed up about football. That doesn't mean it's not entertaining. That doesn't mean it's not fun to watch. All I'm saying is that football is a game you want to view from a distance.

I agree that football in and of itself makes people batty, but the cultishness is worst with college fans. I mean, shirtless Packers fans with polyurethane cheese wedges on their heads are generally harmless. Unsightly, perhaps, but harmless. The people I don't want to run afoul of are the ones who not only think they and the team are part of some institution which rises and falls with the fortune of athletics, but are also unafraid to act like animals because such youthful indiscretions are a rite of passage en route to a successful life by way of having belonged to said institution.

[dfwabel]

But just casual observers, what reason do they have to be so upset? Your favorite team isn't going to be relevant for a few years. That's the worst thing that's happening to them. Let's just say the NCAA is completely unjustified in their decision. It still basically crying over split milk as it relates to your life or at least as it should.

The NCAA was unjustified in their decision. I am not a Penn State apologist, but they overextended their authority. Emmert wants to reduce the NCAA Manual and the penalty phase and this was the first step in for him to be like Fidel Goodell in terms of possessing 'elastic power' like a basketball official. That is dangerous since he has not asked for the same power with Montana, although the DoJ is investigating the university and the city.

The team as a 85 scholarship team and B1G contender is something which is "taken away". Sadly, many of us North Americans are connected by brands which it is hard to let go. While Paterno, Byrant, and Knight* were all given status beyond what they needed, the loss of a name of a department store or supermarket does gain the same furor. When Macy's turned every regional store (Foley's/Lazarus/Marshall Field's/Burdines/Famous-Barr) into the Macy's brand, the loss of that name and personality hurt those communities in a deeper way than it occurred to Penn State.

*-It is odd that in Anglo-America the term "Coach" is given to anybody with little proof that s/he did earn that title. People earn the terms, "Doctor/Dentist (medical)", "Professor (PhD/Ed)", Nurse, Legal (JD), council people are elected, yet for decades before there was a degree we will openly give a near irrevocable title of "Coach" to anybody.

[The_Admiral]

It's an occupation. You don't have to earn "janitor," either. What's your point?

[dfwabel]

Regardless of if their child was alongside in a supermarket an adult is more likely to title a "coach' over a professor, a Judge or even an elected official like a Mayor, or even Governor. Only the pediatrician or dentist may also get that title respect, and they possess qualifications to deserve it.

[njmeadowlanders]

Just to play Devils Advocate, is it Penn State or is it just people in general being stupid?

In other words, say Sandusky et al were at Ohio State or Alabama or Florida or whatever. Same exact situation, everything that happened still unfolded exactly as it did. Would the OSU or Bama equivalent FB page have 70,000 likes? If the answer is "probably" you have your answer, and that's that most people are idiots.

And for the record, I wouldn't dare give my name to a newspaper or do a TV interview if I were in University Park or State College. People are crazy. It's not worth the potential trouble. I don't need to risk a couple of idiots throwing a brick through my windshield or trying to vandalize my property or whatever because I think covering up for a pedophile is bad. Ironically that's the crux of everything that happened to begin with.

[pmoehrin]

This is why I hate people.

There's something completely -ed up about football. Anyone still disagree with that statement?

Not football, just college football at select schools where people have lost touch with reality like cult members. Penn State would qualify as one of these locations based on the continuing amounts of crap that keeps getting spit out by their fans.

Yeah, about that...

[pictures]

Seriously though, I disagree. I think it's all football. Cover high school football for a year or two and you'll agree. Players are taught from day one that life begins and ends with their coach. It's weird. I'm not saying all players buy into it, but enough of them do.

There's something completely -ed up about football. That doesn't mean it's not entertaining. That doesn't mean it's not fun to watch. All I'm saying is that football is a game you want to view from a distance.

I agree that football in and of itself makes people batty, but the cultishness is worst with college fans. I mean, shirtless Packers fans with polyurethane cheese wedges on their heads are generally harmless. Unsightly, perhaps, but harmless. The people I don't want to run afoul of are the ones who not only think they and the team are part of some institution which rises and falls with the fortune of athletics, but are also unafraid to act like animals because such youthful indiscretions are a rite of passage en route to a successful life by way of having belonged to said institution.

I don't know if college fans are anymore violent then NFL fans are. Granted I've never been to a college football game where its seen as religion, but I can't see it being worse then what goes on in NFL stadiums. Also the alcohol doesn't flow as freely in college stadiums as it does in NFL ones, which I think is a big factor.

For me the only reason the culture really bothers is because of all morally questionable things college football does. They don't pay athletes but Nick Saban can make $6 million. The cheating that goes on seems to be rampant. Your breaking news stories about where high school are going to school and trying make pitches to them in some cases to turn a quick buck. etc. etc. You either have to ignore all of these issues or be okay with them in order to be a college football fan. And in my opinion those are the things that have really driven out the casual fan from the sport. So now your just left with the hardcore people that are okay with this or chose to turn a blind eye.

[dfwabel]

This is why I hate people.

There's something completely -ed up about football. Anyone still disagree with that statement?

Not football, just college football at select schools where people have lost touch with reality like cult members. Penn State would qualify as one of these locations based on the continuing amounts of crap that keeps getting spit out by their fans.

Yeah, about that...

[pictures]

Seriously though, I disagree. I think it's all football. Cover high school football for a year or two and you'll agree. Players are taught from day one that life begins and ends with their coach. It's weird. I'm not saying all players buy into it, but enough of them do.

There's something completely -ed up about football. That doesn't mean it's not entertaining. That doesn't mean it's not fun to watch. All I'm saying is that football is a game you want to view from a distance.

I agree that football in and of itself makes people batty, but the cultishness is worst with college fans. I mean, shirtless Packers fans with polyurethane cheese wedges on their heads are generally harmless. Unsightly, perhaps, but harmless. The people I don't want to run afoul of are the ones who not only think they and the team are part of some institution which rises and falls with the fortune of athletics, but are also unafraid to act like animals because such youthful indiscretions are a rite of passage en route to a successful life by way of having belonged to said institution.

I don't know if college fans are anymore violent then NFL fans are. Granted I've never been to a college football game where its seen as religion, but I can't see it being worse then what goes on in NFL stadiums. Also the alcohol doesn't flow as freely in college stadiums as it does in NFL ones, which I think is a big factor.

For me the only reason the culture really bothers is because of all morally questionable things college football does. They don't pay athletes but Nick Saban can make $6 million. The cheating that goes on seems to be rampant. Your breaking news stories about where high school are going to school and trying make pitches to them in some cases to turn a quick buck. etc. etc. You either have to ignore all of these issues or be okay with them in order to be a college football fan. And in my opinion those are the things that have really driven out the casual fan from the sport. So now your just left with the hardcore people that are okay with this or chose to turn a blind eye.

Correct, but it flows more OUTSIDE within RVs which get to campus on Thursday, with tailgates which are allowed far longer than the NFL parking lots generally allow. Plus you forgot the on campus parties (Greek) and the bars near collegiate stadiums.

Read Murray Sperber's "Beer and Circus"

[The_Admiral]

Just to play Devils Advocate, is it Penn State or is it just people in general being stupid?

In other words, say Sandusky et al were at Ohio State or Alabama or Florida or whatever. Same exact situation, everything that happened still unfolded exactly as it did. Would the OSU or Bama equivalent FB page have 70,000 likes? If the answer is "probably" you have your answer, and that's that most people are idiots.

Well, as a geography geek, I'd posit that a lot of this is rooted in the geographic and psychological isolation of Penn State's remote mountain fiefdom. I don't think this could unfold the same way in Columbus or Ann Arbor, for example, because it'd never be kept under wraps the way it was for so many years. This isn't a secret you could keep there, or if Penn State were in Philadelphia or Pittsburgh.

[rainmaker17]

This is why I hate people.

There's something completely -ed up about football. Anyone still disagree with that statement?

Not football, just college football at select schools where people have lost touch with reality like cult members. Penn State would qualify as one of these locations based on the continuing amounts of crap that keeps getting spit out by their fans.

Yeah, about that...

[pictures]

Seriously though, I disagree. I think it's all football. Cover high school football for a year or two and you'll agree. Players are taught from day one that life begins and ends with their coach. It's weird. I'm not saying all players buy into it, but enough of them do.

There's something completely -ed up about football. That doesn't mean it's not entertaining. That doesn't mean it's not fun to watch. All I'm saying is that football is a game you want to view from a distance.

I agree that football in and of itself makes people batty, but the cultishness is worst with college fans. I mean, shirtless Packers fans with polyurethane cheese wedges on their heads are generally harmless. Unsightly, perhaps, but harmless. The people I don't want to run afoul of are the ones who not only think they and the team are part of some institution which rises and falls with the fortune of athletics, but are also unafraid to act like animals because such youthful indiscretions are a rite of passage en route to a successful life by way of having belonged to said institution.

Agree times (huge number). I used to prefer College football over the NFL by a very slim margin. I started to get jaded way before this Sandusky horror and the general ineptitude of the BCS even kicked in. I've never seen more dickish fans in my life than college football fans, my own team's included. I'm tired of the polls. I'm tired of style points. I'm tired of Oregon-ish "pro" whatever style that lets spoiled kids make uniform decisions. Sure, the NFL isn't perfect (by any stretch), but at least there is a logic to it. Win your division, you're in. Didn't win your division? Okay, here's an easy to follow guideline on how you can still make the post season: Win your games. Be better than the teams in your conference, or at least beat them outright in the case you share the same record. Cut and dried, with no judges and computer nonsense to mess around with.

Sorry to stray from the main topic, and maybe I'll start an NCAA v. NFL topic shortly (I'm moving, so I doubt it). It would be a great debate.

[Viola73]

As for that facebook page, I am starting to inch day by day toward "it's not just the loud tiny minority; it's a hell of a lot of them." I know we have a reasonable PSU alum on this thread, but he was not a big PSU football fan. It's not the alums. It's the PSU football fans (students, alums, rubes alike). And they are depressing me.

I was at that when the story broke that JoePa was losing his job over this.

The irony is people like that are providing the biggest argument to what Freeh report said which was the root cause of this was an overly obsessed football culture.

Oh, about the Freeh Report...it's been 'corrected'...6 TIMES

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/07/25/us-usa-pennstate-report-idUSBRE86O1PS20120725

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/local/state/attorney-amendments-to-penn-states-freeh-report-disconcerting-646047/

[Viola73]

Well, as a geography geek, I'd posit that a lot of this is rooted in the geographic and psychological isolation of Penn State's remote mountain fiefdom. I don't think this could unfold the same way in Columbus or Ann Arbor, for example, because it'd never be kept under wraps the way it was for so many years. This isn't a secret you could keep there, or if Penn State were in Philadelphia or Pittsburgh.

My mother is from that region (Clearfield County, West of Centre County) and there is some truth to what you're saying. The fact that there is deep Amish, Quaker, and Dunker roots in the area, as well as the topography you mentioned, compounded with the few number of families that settled in the area and their offspring intermarrying (Cousins). So you have a region that is very tight lipped about certain issues with a very heavy kindred aspect to the community.

I will say, though, that the assumption that something like this could not be kept under wraps in a larger population is somewhat asinine considering how many years some victims claim the Catholic Church (which so many want to attach to this situation) abused them in large cities.

[The_Admiral]

Well, to be fair, with the Roman Catholic Church you're dealing with a cultural institution that's exponentially bigger and scarier than even Penn State football. Haha. I mean, we're not just talking about people's faith here, but the world-controlling force that is Catholic Guilt. Rape victims of all sorts are far too often too intimidated to speak; of course it stands to reason that people would be even more shellshocked into silence when it's an agent of the holy trinity who's guilty.

Incidentally, my dad grew up among a pretty fair number of Catholics in the 1960s and has told stories about how the neighborhood kids all suspected that something was up with one of the local priests, and, being dumb kids, joked about it. My mom is Catholic and said more or less the same thing. I don't think the revelation that the Catholic Church has long been a systematic child rape farm was as sudden as some people make it out to be. It just took a long time to get the word out in earnest.

[BBTV]

*-It is odd that in Anglo-America the term "Coach" is given to anybody with little proof that s/he did earn that title. People earn the terms, "Doctor/Dentist (medical)", "Professor (PhD/Ed)", Nurse, Legal (JD), council people are elected, yet for decades before there was a degree we will openly give a near irrevocable title of "Coach" to anybody.

It's an occupation. You don't have to earn "janitor," either. What's your point?

I've wondered this as well, and think it's ridiculous. You earn "Dr.", so you should be called "Dr. Smith". Why are coaches referred to as "Coach Smith"? Is "Coach" a noble title? It's downright silly to annoint them with this title as if they're some high-born lord. It's just Joe. Or Mr. Smith. It's part of why the role of coaches is so overblown in our society. Or at least a tiny bit.