Say it ain't so, Joe

[WSU151]

Glad to see we have a lot of armchair coaches on this board. Pardon the critique, but you all really look absolutely idiotic for criticizing a profession when you have no clue as to what actually happens in the profession.

I've covered football from the NFL all the way down to high school for 20 years. I've talked with more coaches than anyone should ever have to. I have a pretty good idea of "what actually happens in the profession." But that's beside the point. Your statement is every bit as ridiculous as me telling you not to critique a TV show because you have no clue "what actually happens in the profession."

I'm quite certain that you know about as much about producing a TV show as you do about piloting an Apollo mission to the moon. My guess is you're still able to tell a good TV show from a bad one. That said, using your own logic, I suppose there's nothing wrong with me asking you not to look idiotic by commenting on any TV show until you've actually sat in a producer's chair. Right?

I don't criticize TV shows like you criticize football coaches. I have no idea what it's like to be a producer, and therefore I'm not gonna go off about how awesome I am and how awful they are. I'm sure there's a ton more that goes into producing a show or piloting a mission to the moon. And yet I'm not here complaining that only special kinds of idiots are TV producers or astronauts.

If you can find a post of mine that says TV producers shouldn't work the hours they do because their job isn't that hard, or any other posts that critique TV producers' work ethic, please post it. I'd love to read it.

If football coaches felt like they could work less and get the same amount done, they would. That's just human nature.

So how do you explain Steve Spurrier? He's more successful than most college coaches yet he doesn't work 20 hours a day. Is he just special or something?

Spurrier hasn't been an elite coach in quite some time. Maybe if he put in a few more hours he could find a way for South Carolina to win the SEC championship. I think it's pretty clear Spurrier's work ethic didn't really work on the NFL level.

If football coaches felt like they could work less and get the same amount done, they would. That's just human nature.

This is where I think you're wrong. As an outsider, the nature of high-level football coaching, especially when tied in with the nature of collegiate recruiting, is part of a long-standing, decades-ingrained culture of bravado, machismo, chest-thumping, and shallow one-upsmanship. While the overall goal may be to do it better, it seems quite often that the method of obtaining "better" is simply by doing something "more". Gotta recruit more than the other coaches. Gotta do drills more than the other coaches. Gotta watch film more than the other coaches. Gotta hold filmed practices in 55-mph winds more than the other coaches. There's an approach to coaching that comes across like everything in life should be approached in the same fashion as reps at a weight machine.

The old adage of "work smart, not hard" is lost on a good number of this lot.

You have a point, but I don't know if it's bad to keep working on the details. When you're in a profession that's constantly in the spotlight, you want to get the little stuff right, no matter how long it takes. The last thing you want to hear is "Well, it looks like you're team just wasn't ready".

[dfwabel]

the notion that a good coach needs to follow a near 24 hour work schedule, that if you come in at 9 and leave by 5 you're somehow not "committed." Coaches who sleep in their offices and work insane hours to the detriment of their family and personal life are lauded as examples to be followed. Sure, doctors and lawyers have their sleepless nights from time to time, but for the most part people in these professions follow normal work schedules.

The idea that one can cure illness or master a complex legal system between 9-5 yet a football coach needs to shun the outside world for days on end to do his job correctly is seriously messed up.

Steve Spurrier seems to have made a nice little career for himself working normal hours. If memory serves, when he was hired by the Redskins, he was vilified for daring to question why it was necessary to work 20 hours a day as an NFL coach. Sure, there are those who would point to Spurrier's lack of success with the Redskins as proof that a coach needs to work 20 hours a day in the NFL. That's fine, but there are just as many college coaches who work insane hours and still go 3-9 while Spurrier leads a normal life and has a pretty successful coaching career. Not to mention, it's not like the Redskins were wildly successful before and after Spurrier.

My guess is that, years ago, some successful coach gave an interview where he said he worked 12 hours a day. So of course every other coach decided to work 13 hours a day. Then a bunch more decided to work 15 hours a day and here we are. All that in mind, here's my question; if you have millions invested in a team, do you really want the personnel who are running that team to operate on 15 hours of sleep a week...for 20 weeks?

I'll never be convinced that it takes 12 people 120 hours each (that's 1440 hours combined) to come up with a game plan for a football game. There's something completely -ed up about football. And it's coaches are particularly -ed up.

The Lombardi biography, "When Pride Still Mattered" his absence from his family covered that heavily. Vermeil was burnout and Joe Gibbs also talked about it numerous times as the reason why he retired from the Redskins the first time as he would sleep at Redskin Park.

Unlike 'WSU151', I believe that Spurrier is still in the 95th percentile of FCS/FBS coaches and has gotten USCe to levels which they have never been to.

Back to Penn State, ESPN Magazine goes into detail on the Consent Decree and process of the penalties as the "death penalty" was allegedly on the table until the last 12-24 hours.

I will assume this is the actual document (or an early version) of the Consent Degree from NCAA

[BBTV]

It was a metaphor. Ultimately a decent chunk of football games are won and lost on random-chance events that coaches have little control over despite their vaunted hours of preparation. This is especially true if you don't have significant talent differentials on the field. Unfortunately very few coaches nowadays seem to have figured out this diminishing marginal rate of return proposition.

And of course there's also the pragmatic aspect that sleep deprivation tends to cloud judgment.

That's a better answer than your first effort.

You have a decent point with NFL coaches, but at that level, every level of detail is required. Have you ever tried to watch NFL film and try to predict what your opposition's doing based on how they line up? Ever try to find opposing tendancies? It's not an easy science. Not to mention meeting with the owners on who to re-sign and contract negotiations, who will be on the practice squad, what players should they sign that are free agents, meeting with the press, charity functions, etc etc.

College coaches are busy recruiting, studying high school highlights, meeting with the athletics department and the director, meeting with the alumni, meeting with the press, meeting with the strength coach, meeting with the trainers, etc.

If football coaches felt like they could work less and get the same amount done, they would. That's just human nature.

They're busy doing all of that - but is it because they really need to, or because they're just poor delegators, or because they're just trying to act like they're all managerial and in control of everything? Honestly, your post represents what is wrong with America. There's certainly leadership skills and sports knowledge that's required to be a good coach, but jeezus - let's not put them on the same level as brain surgeons or CEOs or anything. It's coaching football. You can make absolutely horrible decisions, but get bailed out if your player is just faster than the other team's player. It's kind of funny how some of these guys walk around acting like they're managers in a business, when many of them have no real-world experience in anything besides telling big sweaty meaty guys to hit the other team's big sweaty meaty guys harder, and "LEAVE IT ALL ON THE FIELD!".

[WSU151]

It was a metaphor. Ultimately a decent chunk of football games are won and lost on random-chance events that coaches have little control over despite their vaunted hours of preparation. This is especially true if you don't have significant talent differentials on the field. Unfortunately very few coaches nowadays seem to have figured out this diminishing marginal rate of return proposition.

And of course there's also the pragmatic aspect that sleep deprivation tends to cloud judgment.

That's a better answer than your first effort.

You have a decent point with NFL coaches, but at that level, every level of detail is required. Have you ever tried to watch NFL film and try to predict what your opposition's doing based on how they line up? Ever try to find opposing tendancies? It's not an easy science. Not to mention meeting with the owners on who to re-sign and contract negotiations, who will be on the practice squad, what players should they sign that are free agents, meeting with the press, charity functions, etc etc.

College coaches are busy recruiting, studying high school highlights, meeting with the athletics department and the director, meeting with the alumni, meeting with the press, meeting with the strength coach, meeting with the trainers, etc.

If football coaches felt like they could work less and get the same amount done, they would. That's just human nature.

They're busy doing all of that - but is it because they really need to, or because they're just poor delegators, or because they're just trying to act like they're all managerial and in control of everything? Honestly, your post represents what is wrong with America.

I don't know. Maybe it's a mixture of both. Being a good delegator doesn't automatically mean you're a good manager.

There's certainly leadership skills and sports knowledge that's required to be a good coach, but jeezus - let's not put them on the same level as brain surgeons or CEOs or anything. It's coaching football. You can make absolutely horrible decisions, but get bailed out if your player is just faster than the other team's player. It's kind of funny how some of these guys walk around acting like they're managers in a business, when many of them have no real-world experience in anything besides telling big sweaty meaty guys to hit the other team's big sweaty meaty guys harder, and "LEAVE IT ALL ON THE FIELD!".

Just because it's football doesn't mean it's not complex. It's about putting 11 guys in the right position at the right time 90 times a game with 11 other guys making sure you don't accomplish your goal.

With that said...are great coaches "geniuses"? Of course not.

[infrared41]

I've covered football from the NFL all the way down to high school for 20 years. I've talked with more coaches than anyone should ever have to. I have a pretty good idea of "what actually happens in the profession." But that's beside the point. Your statement is every bit as ridiculous as me telling you not to critique a TV show because you have no clue "what actually happens in the profession."

I'm quite certain that you know about as much about producing a TV show as you do about piloting an Apollo mission to the moon. My guess is you're still able to tell a good TV show from a bad one. That said, using your own logic, I suppose there's nothing wrong with me asking you not to look idiotic by commenting on any TV show until you've actually sat in a producer's chair. Right?

I don't criticize TV shows like you criticize football coaches.

I have no idea what it's like to be a producer, and therefore I'm not gonna go off about how awesome I am and how awful they are. I'm sure there's a ton more that goes into producing a show or piloting a mission to the moon. And yet I'm not here complaining that only special kinds of idiots are TV producers or astronauts.

If you can find a post of mine that says TV producers shouldn't work the hours they do because their job isn't that hard, or any other posts that critique TV producers' work ethic, please post it. I'd love to read it.

1. And I don't call people "idiotic" simply because they're posting opinions I don't agree with. Sorry that I don't stand in awe of football coaches. And I'm sorry that I think it takes a special kind of idiot to go into a profession that requires 20 hour work days.

2. Pointing out that I've covered the game for a while was hardly an attempt to show how "awesome" I am. It was a response to you stating that we're "idiotic" and none of us have any idea what goes on in the coaching profession. Turns out I actually do have an idea of what goes on. Believe me, there is nothing "cool" or "fun" about being up close and personal with a football team.

Am I allowed to state again that football is a game best viewed from a distance, or would that just be more of me pointing out my "awesomeness?" Odd how you don't have the same disdain for the artists and designers around here who use experiences from their professions to make a point. Anyway, I'm not going to apologize for my career. Sorry that I just happen to work in a field that gives me access to the some of the topics that come up around here.

3. No, you're complaining that the rest of us are idiots because we don't see football coaches the same way you do. Frankly, I don't see the difference between that and my saying it takes a special kind of idiot to be a football coach. And for what it's worth, my statements on the matter aren't complaints. They're just opinions. Opinions that I'm apparently not allowed to have in your book.

Hope that clears it up.

[ninersdd]

Why I believe coaches spend a lot of time in the war room preparing: $$$$$$$$. Seriously though, if the amount of money people spent on football at all levels(and overall interest) was way less, I just am not sure if coaches would have their heads in the game as much.

[WSU151]

nm - sent to PMs

[ElwoodCuse]

With that said...are great coaches "geniuses"? Of course not.

"There are no geniuses in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."

--Joe Theismann

[Don]

With that said...are great coaches "geniuses"? Of course not.

"There are no geniuses in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."

--Joe Theismann

Coming from a guy who knows a lot about not being a genius.

[dfwabel]

And the Toastmaster General, Jeff Ross does not leave Joe Paterno alone. Legacy officially gone in terms of pop culture.

'If they’re offended by what they see, they can do what Joe Paterno did – look the other way.'

[Kevin W.]

Roastmaster General, you mean.

[Lights Out]

It's kind of funny how some of these guys walk around acting like they're managers in a business, when many of them have no real-world experience in anything besides telling big sweaty meaty guys to hit the other team's big sweaty meaty guys harder, and "LEAVE IT ALL ON THE FIELD!".

Or, if you're Norv Turner, you say "run it up the gut" on every down and curl up into the fetal position in the fourth quarter instead. And he can't even do THAT quickly, considering all the delay-of-game penalties he amasses.

[bosrs1]

And the Toastmaster General, Jeff Ross does not leave Joe Paterno alone. Legacy officially gone in terms of pop culture.

'If they?re offended by what they see, they can do what Joe Paterno did ? look the other way.'

I didn't know what to think of that costume until I read the statement by Ross about it. His statement in concert with the mocking costume is brilliant even if ill timed.

[bosrs1]

And the trustees appeal the penalty.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8240385/penn-state-nittany-lions-trustees-appeal-ncaa-vow-federal-lawsuit

Frankly I hope this spurs the NCAA to invalidate the original sanctions and go with what the NCAA board wanted to do in the first place. Four year ban. Destroy PSU football for all time. If they can't accept they were given a lenient punishment, hit them with what they really deserved.

[OnWis97]

And the trustees appeal the penalty.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8240385/penn-state-nittany-lions-trustees-appeal-ncaa-vow-federal-lawsuit

Frankly I hope this spurs the NCAA to invalidate the original sanctions and go with what the NCAA board wanted to do in the first place. Four year ban. Destroy PSU football for all time. If they can't accept they were given a lenient punishment, hit them with what they really deserved.

Except that PSU is going to win.

[IceCap]

And the trustees appeal the penalty.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8240385/penn-state-nittany-lions-trustees-appeal-ncaa-vow-federal-lawsuit

Frankly I hope this spurs the NCAA to invalidate the original sanctions and go with what the NCAA board wanted to do in the first place. Four year ban. Destroy PSU football for all time. If they can't accept they were given a lenient punishment, hit them with what they really deserved.

Except that PSU is going to win.

What makes you say that?

[bosrs1]

And the trustees appeal the penalty.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8240385/penn-state-nittany-lions-trustees-appeal-ncaa-vow-federal-lawsuit

Frankly I hope this spurs the NCAA to invalidate the original sanctions and go with what the NCAA board wanted to do in the first place. Four year ban. Destroy PSU football for all time. If they can't accept they were given a lenient punishment, hit them with what they really deserved.

Except that PSU is going to win.

How so? Last I checked the NCAA was not required to give members due process of law as decreed by the Supreme Court. PSU will probably lose and will still be subject to the current penalties, if not worse and look even worse in the process (who would have thought that was possible).

[IceCap]

So PSU agrees to these penalties in lue of the death penalty. So the NCAA issues the sanctions. Then PSU appeals them anyway.

The school's entire administration needs to be purged.

[rams80]

So PSU agrees to these penalties in lue of the death penalty. So the NCAA issues the sanctions. Then PSU a vocal minority of the trustees appeals them anyway.

The school's entire administration needs to be purged.

Fixed. Oh...they are claiming to speak for the University and its administration, but I suspect our law and Roberts' would look rather unfavorably upon that argument. Please note in particular that the trustee ramrodding this appeal was one of the guys elected since last November who ran on a "Protect Joe" platform. Think of him as a frothing at the mouth tea partier if you will-only with an even less noble cause.

FWIW the Board (or at least a voting majority of it) did stand by the decision to accept the penalties.

[The_Admiral]

One of the trustees, this guy named Anthony Lubrano, ran for and won his seat based on a platform almost entirely concerned with Joe Paterno: "securing a public apology" for firing him, posthumously re-hiring him, and for all I know after the first two, exhuming his corpse and using an elaborate system of wires and pulleys to re-enact on a weekly basis the time he crapped his pants in the middle of a game.

My Platform: SURPRISE

S ecure a public apology to the Paterno family for the disgraceful manner in which Coach Paterno was treated. We cannot heal as a community until this occurs.

U nderstand your priorities by asking

R eform the current structure of the Board of Trustees in terms of size and composition.

P rovide a period of "Public Comment" during each Board Meeting.

R estore the pride by emphasizing our successes.

I nform through regular communications.

S uspend the Standing Orders and conduct business in an open and transparent manner.

E ngage in the business of Penn State

I'm sorry but all I think of is the old "it's not rape, it's surprise sex" line. How inopportune for both of us.