Say it ain't so, Joe

[BBTV]

3 hours ago, Ice_Cap said:

It's not about punishing "nothing." It's about weeding out the source of this ingrained culture that valued the prestige of college football over the lives and well being of children.

That you have Penn State supporters with kids of their own that fully grasp the severity and horror of Sandusky's crimes only makes their defence of the program and Paterno all the more sad and despicable.

 

Penn State football just needs to go away. At least long enough so that it no longer becomes a central aspect of the university's identity. Letting it become too central is what's led to this mess.

 

So while I have neither ties nor love (or even like) for Penn State, I know many parents of students and students themselves, and I can tell you that it's not as central of an aspect as it once was.  Not even close.  It's still " very big", but it's also very different, and will continue to get more different each year as people who were students at the time begin graduating and moving on.

 

Keep in mind that college freshmen are 18 years old, were 13 when the scandal broke, and haven't been through nearly the same indoctrination that previous generations have had.  When I was in HS and playing football in mid '90s, everyone wanted to be recruited by PSU just so they could see Joe Pa in person.  I do a lot of volunteer work with HSers now and I can tell you first hand that it's not nearly as big a deal as it once was (I mean it's still big just because it's a major program in your own state, but it has nothing to do with the history or legacy - that's primarily been forgotten.)  

 

As for the slack-jawed yokel town folk - well that's never going to change while they're living, and quite frankly if you killed the program you're just turning it and Joe into martyrs (in the SJY's eyes.)  You're never going to change their mind or educate them, but you can at least keep them relatively contained and civil until they start dying off.

 

Headly made a point that there's simply no precedence for anything like this in ever.  Therefore there's no precedence for punishment.  I feel similarly - had they received the death penalty, I would have supported it.  But I also can see why they didn't.  Now, 4-years later, it's absurd to give them the death penalty for stuff that is uncovered 30 years ago about people who are no longer affiliated, or even living.  Honestly is it a surprise?  Did anyone not think that there was more to what Joe knew?  While seeing it in print is one thing, it's not like any reasonable person didn't think this was at least a little bigger of a cover up than what the facts known 5 years ago showed.

 

He also made a point that kinda sorta goes with a discussion we were having earlier regarding if this even could ever happen again after all this has come out.  After thinking about it within the context of the eras in which it took place, I feel even more strongly that while you can't ever say 100%, it's very highly unlikely that this could have happened today, with all of the methods of communication and available mediums to anonymously report things etc.

 

 

 

 

[pcgd]

4 hours ago, Viola73 said:

I hear what your saying and in a perfect world this would have been the outcome, but we live in this world we we cannot fire people from occupations due to accusations. People and companies get sued over things like that. You must have evidence and a conviction by jury of your peers. At least an arrest of Sandusky early on could have been interpreted as breech of contract due to misconduct, but he was only investigated by a number of agencies and they found nothing.

 

After he "retired" it was the administration that gave Sandusky status to be on campus. Paterno actually objected to Sandusky being on campus, but he had no say in the final decision.

 

I anxiously await the trial of the big 3 in hopes of hearing what they knew and their thought patterns.

 

 

Pennsylvania is an at will state so they can fire him whenever for whatever they want as long as it doesn't break federal employment laws. If Sandusky wants to claim protection as a pedofile I guess he could have tried that... 

 

And by not firing him when he heard about more than 1 allegation, it created an environment where Penn State was ok with child rape as long as they won football games.  Later, it allowed the admin to eventually give Sandusky access to his torture chamber  (I mean Paterno's football locker room) for years after he retired.

 

I guess my question is, if you personally hear about an employee abusing kids on 2 separate occasions, do you keep him around? Promote him?? Stand by as he starts a charity focused on kids???

 

Of course you don't. Nobody does.  Except JoPa.

[twi]

After hearing the new info coming out, I asked my cousin (a Jr at Penn State) what the feeling towards football and Joe Paterno was as best he could tell. Basically, he said going to games is fun, away games aren't, and that except for the few folks who actually live there and a small minority of students, Paterno is greatly looked down upon. Feels that anybody not associated with PSU 'before' is more likely to be rational about it. 

[BBTV]

4 hours ago, twi said:

After hearing the new info coming out, I asked my cousin (a Jr at Penn State) what the feeling towards football and Joe Paterno was as best he could tell. Basically, he said going to games is fun, away games aren't, and that except for the few folks who actually live there and a small minority of students, Paterno is greatly looked down upon. Feels that anybody not associated with PSU 'before' is more likely to be rational about it. 

 

Thats my perception as well. It's the townies and a few meathead students (likely from central / middle PA) that are "football above all else, Joe pa should be on the $20 screw Harry Tubman" otherwise it's like an expansion team (albeit one that fills a 100k stadium). It's simply not the thing that people plan their whole weeks around anymore. 

 

Im curious if any football money goes toward abuse victim organizations beyond what was oudered. Regardless, if that statue is still around it has to go.

[sc49erfan15]

6 minutes ago, BringBackTheVet said:

"football above all else, Joe pa should be on the $20 screw Harry Tubman"

 

This resulted in Diet Coke in the nose. Have a "like."

[Gothamite]

8 hours ago, HedleyLamarr said:

It's comforting to know you still can't read.  Of course, you're the guy that still firmly believes the Thrashers moved because of attendance after I, a former employee of the team, told you over and over and over and over and over why the team left.

 

I had this sentence in my post from the beginning: (Only comparing PSU to the Canucks because of crazy fanatics....that's all.)   My comparisons began and ended, and only concerned, about their crazy fans and their steadfast reluctance to change their stance on the home team.  Nothing more.

 

I thought there had to be more than that, because the comparison was so spurious. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. 

 

Of course, given your personal attacks in kind, that may have been a mistake on my part. 

[The_Admiral]

On 5/8/2016 at 7:46 PM, BringBackTheVet said:

Thats my perception as well. It's the townies and a few meathead students (likely from central / middle PA) that are "football above all else, Joe pa should be on the $20 screw Harry Tubman" otherwise it's like an expansion team (albeit one that fills a 100k stadium). It's simply not the thing that people plan their whole weeks around anymore. 

 

"Harry Tubman" elevates this post from the prosaic to the sublime. Man.

 

And yeah, I mean, the fact that 90% of the students at Penn State weren't there when it all went down has probably brought a lot more reason into how people treat football there. Nevertheless, knowing what we know now about how long the program hid child rape to maintain revenue streams and on-field success, I'd prefer to see the whole thing dismantled for good.

[pmoehrin]

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 3:09 PM, BringBackTheVet said:

 

So while I have neither ties nor love (or even like) for Penn State, I know many parents of students and students themselves, and I can tell you that it's not as central of an aspect as it once was.  Not even close.  It's still " very big", but it's also very different, and will continue to get more different each year as people who were students at the time begin graduating and moving on.

 

Keep in mind that college freshmen are 18 years old, were 13 when the scandal broke, and haven't been through nearly the same indoctrination that previous generations have had.  When I was in HS and playing football in mid '90s, everyone wanted to be recruited by PSU just so they could see Joe Pa in person.  I do a lot of volunteer work with HSers now and I can tell you first hand that it's not nearly as big a deal as it once was (I mean it's still big just because it's a major program in your own state, but it has nothing to do with the history or legacy - that's primarily been forgotten.)  

 

As for the slack-jawed yokel town folk - well that's never going to change while they're living, and quite frankly if you killed the program you're just turning it and Joe into martyrs (in the SJY's eyes.)  You're never going to change their mind or educate them, but you can at least keep them relatively contained and civil until they start dying off.

 

Headly made a point that there's simply no precedence for anything like this in ever.  Therefore there's no precedence for punishment.  I feel similarly - had they received the death penalty, I would have supported it.  But I also can see why they didn't.  Now, 4-years later, it's absurd to give them the death penalty for stuff that is uncovered 30 years ago about people who are no longer affiliated, or even living.  Honestly is it a surprise?  Did anyone not think that there was more to what Joe knew?  While seeing it in print is one thing, it's not like any reasonable person didn't think this was at least a little bigger of a cover up than what the facts known 5 years ago showed.

 

He also made a point that kinda sorta goes with a discussion we were having earlier regarding if this even could ever happen again after all this has come out.  After thinking about it within the context of the eras in which it took place, I feel even more strongly that while you can't ever say 100%, it's very highly unlikely that this could have happened today, with all of the methods of communication and available mediums to anonymously report things etc.

Maybe the best take I've seen on these recent revelations thus far.

 

Considering the school could have lost their accreditation over this, I thought the program got off very light. Punishing them again I think would be double jeopardy, but what's so frustrating in all of this is how the school has barely even shown remorse for what happened and that's what angers people including myself more than anything. Knowing that they had made settlements with people going as far back as 1971 and still seeing Penn State stick with this hard line approach of denying that Paterno and company did anything wrong keeps right in with that theme.

 

The one silver lining is that this cult of Paterno probably ended the day this story broke and if that is true Happy Valley will eventually get over it. Its just going to take a lot longer than they would like. For anyone old enough to remember it who's not a Penn State fan, this will always be the first thing that comes to mind when the words Penn State football are mentioned and there is nothing Penn State or anyone else can do to change that.

[Nyk33]

Here's what the Penn State President say in response to the new allegations.

 

 

Dear Friends:

Over the past few days, allegations have surfaced from individuals who claim to be Sandusky victims and from unidentified individuals about the alleged knowledge of former University employees. None of these allegations about the supposed knowledge of University employees has been substantiated in a court of law or in any other process to test their veracity.

I want you to know I am appalled by the rumor, innuendo and rush to judgment that have accompanied the media stories surrounding these allegations. All too often in our society, people are convicted in the court of public opinion, only to find a different outcome when all the facts are presented.  

In contrast, over the last two days we have worked to be diligent in reanalyzing the record of reports and depositions to ensure that our reactions and comments are both responsible and trustworthy.

First, the allegations related to Penn State are simply not established fact. The two allegations related to knowledge by Coach Paterno are unsubstantiated and unsupported by any evidence other than a claim by an alleged victim. They date from the 1970s. Coach Paterno is not alive to refute them. His family has denied them.

Second, we cannot find any evidence, related to a settlement or otherwise, that an alleged early assault was communicated to Coach Paterno. This raises considerable credibility issues as to this press report. Others cite assistant coaches that were witnesses or had knowledge – stating it as fact in headlines and text – even in the face of a denial and clear failure to corroborate from the individuals allegedly involved. Other stories are clearly incredulous, and should be difficult for any reasonable person to believe. We should not be rendering judgments about the actions of Coach Paterno or any other former employees of Penn State based on incomplete, sensationalized media accounts.

I can think of few crimes as heinous as the sexual assault of a child. We are, as individuals and as an institution, appalled by Sandusky’s actions, and unified in our commitment to prevention, treatment and education. I encourage you to visit this link for information on Penn State’s commitment.

Unfortunately, we can’t control the 24/7 news cycle, and the tendency of some individuals in social media and the blogosphere to rush to judgment. But I have had enough of the continued trial of the institution in various media. We have all had enough. And while Penn State cannot always comment on allegations that emanate from legal proceedings, I thought it was important to let you know my reaction to the media frenzy that has ensued over the past few days. I am appalled.

Sincerely,

Eric Barron
President

 

 

[BBTV]

Wow - that really could have been worded better.  His attempt to communicate outrage really came off as defensive, and after all that transpired, he should not, under any circumstance, dismiss the accounts of an "alleged victim".  There are literally thousands of ways to phrase that in a way that takes the account seriously while at the same time states what facts are known.

 

He's also attacking... well, everyone by stating that no reasonable person can believe the stories.  While I assume he is correct about what the confirmed facts are, simply put it's extremely reasonable to believe these new allegations, even if most people dismiss the word "allegation".  It's extremely reasonable to assume that there is more out there than what is known, and even if these allegations aren't true, there's other stuff that is - because there has to be.

 

I do believe that he's defending his school, rather than defending his football program, but that doesn't excuse the middle-school-level writing.  I'm still not sure that it changes anything - unless there's evidence that this administration is covering up anything from the past (or current) program then there's no basis for additional punishment, however if it looks like this administration is turning "football first", then perhaps it's appropriate to re-open the books. 

[pcgd]

If that name sounds familiar...

 

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/Why-did-Penn-State-hire-the-president-of-Football-Rape-Coverup-U.html

[BBTV]

"5 years after Sandusky, Penn State has learned nothing. Zilch. Nada."

 

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/attytood/5-years-into-Sanduskygate-Penn-State-has-learned-nothing-Zilch-Nada.html

 

 

[DG_ThenNowForever]

Penn State's president shouldn't be calling him "Coach" Paterno and Penn State shouldn't have a football team. They can't handle the responsibility of A) having a team and not being terrible people.

[Lights Out]

:censored: Penn State. Again, the fact that they still have a football program is a travesty.

[DDR]

47 minutes ago, DG_Now said:

Penn State's president shouldn't be calling him "Coach" Paterno and Penn State shouldn't have a football team. They can't handle the responsibility of A) having a team and not being terrible people.

 

Gotta love when the Boards turn your "b" bullet point into the cool guy sunglass emoji in the middle of a serious post. 

[DG_ThenNowForever]

32 minutes ago, DDR said:

 

Gotta love when the Boards turn your "b" bullet point into the cool guy sunglass emoji in the middle of a serious post. 

 

Was gonna change it to 1s and 2s but the dichotomy was too rich.

[DnBronc]

Here is Dan Bernstein's most recent article about Penn State. Bernstein (from the popular Chicago Sports talk show Boers and Bernstein) has been a very outspoken critic of Penn State since everything hit the fan in Nov. 2011:

 

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2016/05/06/bernstein-paterno-child-rape-coverup-gets-uglier/

[Gothamite]

18 hours ago, pmoehrin said:

The one silver lining is that this cult of Paterno probably ended the day this story broke 

 

I really wish that was the case, but it certainly doesn't appear to be.  

 

So long as he has defenders, so long as there is any significant number of people in Pennsylvania who want his statue returned to its place of honor, so long as the university attacks victims when they dare to step forward, the cult is definitely alive. 

[pcgd]

Outside of Happy Valley however, his reputation is forever tarnished. As it should be.

[pmoehrin]

3 hours ago, pcgd said:

Outside of Happy Valley however, his reputation is forever tarnished. As it should be.

 

I was mainly referring to going forward with the cult of Paterno comment.

He's always going to have defenders, but that number isn't growing and I think that's as good as you're going to get. At this point my attitude is that is as angry as people are over this, what can really be done about it? The school be would be shut down before they would cancel football. That's what you're up against here.

The only hope I have is that it helps lead to a larger conversation about the role major college athletics play in higher education, because Penn State is far from being the only school where the tail is wagging the dog. There is no school out there that NEEDS a football team to survive, so why are they such a priority for some schools and I don't think there's an acceptable answer to that question.

 

I myself want as little to do with college football as possible. I'll tune in to the National title game simply out of curiosity but that's about it. The whole institution top to bottom, the people involved and even the fans themselves just disgusts me. A growing part of me thinks that when Teddy Roosevelt wanted to outright ban college football he may have had the right idea. I've seen what its turned into and I absolutely detest it.