Say it ain't so, Joe

[dfwabel]

26 minutes ago, rickyISking said:

Another thing I find disgusting is that the NCAA lifted all its restrictions early. Because, "Oh no! Penn State went 6-6, the horror!!!" Well you shouldn't have even won those 6 games as you should have gotten the "death penalty".

 

Also, usually I'm not a fan of vacating wins, but I find it's perfect in Joe Pa's case. I just wish they kept his wins vacated.

Why are you mad again?

Penn State became a national "brand" due to football.

 

 

Penn State escaped like UNC will. The accreditation agencies stood by both

 

[JayMac]

2 hours ago, DG_Now said:

 

I really don't like this response. When everyone "moves on" you get to ignore the terrible things the University condoned for decades.

 

We don't need to rehash 100 pages of thread, but "moving on" is super easy for football fans and others who could have done more in the moment. It's less easy for the very real victims in this case.

Moving on is not ignoring anything. What else am I supposed to do? I feel awful for what happened but I have nothing to do with it.

[JayMac]

The death penalty option is ridiculous. That solves nothing.

[IceCap]

38 minutes ago, jmac11281 said:

The death penalty option is ridiculous. That solves nothing.

It nukes the program that allowed all of this to happen. 

[BBTV]

36 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

I never saw the death penalty as punishing the innocent in this case. 

More like the administration and faculty at Penn State knowingly covered up rape for decades in the same of preserving the football team's "good name." The prestige and legacy of the football program clouded the good judgement of those that should have known better. 

Therefore the school and its culture as a whole had sort of proven that they didn't deserve to have a team. They'd allowed it to cloud their judgement to such an extent that they were covering up one of the most heinous crimes possible. 

 

I donno. Everyone involved in trying to prop up this garbage legacy has just sort of left me saying "you don't deserve any of this." 

Make things as easy as possible for the kids who need to transfer to other programs, but the program itself is beyond saving.

 

Dont disagree with the first part, except that anyone even remotely involved, from the top down, was replaced, and there's not (to my knowledge - correct me if I've forgotten) evidence that this truly was more than the president, possibly a trustee, and a few coaches - not like there was staff meetings where it was discussed or it was an orchestrated / organized scheme like some other college athletic scandals were. The entire administration is new, and from outside - it's about as much a house cleaning as you can get. The current athletes were innocent, as was anyone else that benefited directly or indirectly (doesn't football fund women's sports? I really don't know). 

 

The he last people I would feel sorry for or consider in the decision are the students and fans, but at the end of the day while they're guilty of misplaced hero worship, they're also innocent of any actual wrongdoing. 

 

I I do think death penalty has a purpose, but I don't see how it would serve any purpose here at all other than just the deterrent aspect that gothamite pointed out. 

 

Id hope that since these crimes were so heinous and this scandal was so huge that nobody anywhere could allow it to happen again - but of course we know that's probably not true. 

 

not or sure how the program is "beyond saving", when it has zero connection to the program that allowed things to happen. Other than the uniforms, it's a whole new thing. 

[GFB]

The death penalty would at least have allowed for a fresh start and a clean house. Take a year or two off, sit in the corner, and really come to terms with what you allowed to fester and thrive within your walls, and get your priorities straight.

 

[IceCap]

9 minutes ago, BringBackTheVet said:

 

Dont disagree with the first part, except that anyone even remotely involved, from the top down, was replaced, and there's not (to my knowledge - correct me if I've forgotten) evidence that this truly was more than the president, possibly a trustee, and a few coaches - not like there was staff meetings where it was discussed or it was an orchestrated / organized scheme like some other college athletic scandals were. The entire administration is new, and from outside - it's about as much a house cleaning as you can get. The current athletes were innocent, as was anyone else that benefited directly or indirectly (doesn't football fund women's sports? I really don't know). 

 

The he last people I would feel sorry for or consider in the decision are the students and fans, but at the end of the day while they're guilty of misplaced hero worship, they're also innocent of any actual wrongdoing. 

 

I I do think death penalty has a purpose, but I don't see how it would serve any purpose here at all other than just the deterrent aspect that gothamite pointed out. 

 

Id hope that since these crimes were so heinous and this scandal was so huge that nobody anywhere could allow it to happen again - but of course we know that's probably not true. 

 

not or sure how the program is "beyond saving", when it has zero connection to the program that allowed things to happen. Other than the uniforms, it's a whole new thing. 

It's more cultural. PSU football wasn't enabling rape when Paterno came on board.

It's just that he created a culture where enabling a child rapist was acceptable if it preserved the image of the football program. 

Paterno was PSU football for so long that even a complete changeover of personnel and staff doesn't change the culture. PSU football is still a huge deal because of Paterno, and PSU as an institution has shown what can be allowed to happen when they let football become a big deal. 

 

It's not the players, staff, administration, or faculty that's toxic. It's the culture around the program. And the only way to fix that is to nuke the program.

[Lights Out]

55 minutes ago, jmac11281 said:

The death penalty option is ridiculous. That solves nothing.

It sends a message that the cult-like culture around the football program that enabled Sandusky's crimes for decades cannot be allowed to happen anymore at Penn State or anywhere else. If PSU was in a G5 conference or lower, they would have been given the death penalty without question.

 

And for everyone saying that the media firestorm is deterrent enough, that's complete BS. If that were the case, the Baylor basketball scandal would have scared Penn State into coming clean and taking action against their own in-house criminal - but we all know that didn't happen. As sad as it is, there needs to be a scorched-earth response to these sorts of things in order to send a message to the big football schools.

 

It's absolutely disgusting that the Penn State hockey team wore "409 wins" decals on their helmets, and that Penn State fans still fly "409 wins" flags at tailgates and wear "409 wins" shirts - all to honor a child rapist's partner in crime. Shame on the NCAA for once again allowing conference politics and money to get in the way of doing what's right.

[JTernup]

6 minutes ago, Ice_Cap said:

It's more cultural. PSU football wasn't enabling rape when Paterno came on board.

It's just that he created a culture where enabling a child rapist was acceptable if it preserved the image of the football program. 

Paterno was PSU football for so long that even a complete changeover of personnel and staff doesn't change the culture. PSU football is still a huge deal because of Paterno, and PSU as an institution has shown what can be allowed to happen when they let football become a big deal. 

 

It's not the players, staff, administration, or faculty that's toxic. It's the culture around the program. And the only way to fix that is to nuke the program.

Agreed, If the school had any integrity they would have nuked it themselves but $$$ speaks louder than academic integrity.

[GFB]

It doesn't help that I ran into a PSU season ticket holder while on vacation a few months back. We made small talk about the football team and he said that the sanctions were "a joke" and "an overreaction" and they "had the book thrown at them." THEY were the victims.

 

I realize it's just one fan*, but you can see that viewpoint is far too common among Jay Paterno and the PSU faithful. Sanctions and a few years of mediocre football were never going to allow for the truth to register inside their minds. You are not the victims. Children were raped over and over again by a man you enabled and then turned a blind eye to within your walls all in the name of a stupid game. Human lives were turned upside down and destroyed. THEY are the victims and they are still paying for it to this very day. 

 

I'm a Michigan fan who watched the basketball program be destroyed for 20 years because they paid players money (against the rules, but you can make the argument it helps the player and his family). SMU lost their program for years because they paid them money. PSU deserved far worse for actually hurting people.

 

 

[The_Admiral]

Yeah, because paying players is something that should be done. There's no such argument for child molestation, followed by the aiding and abetting of further child molestation, all in the name of making money. 

[DG_ThenNowForever]

http://deadspin.com/nbc-as-many-as-six-penn-state-coaches-witnessed-jerry-1775241126

 

Quote

As many as six Joe Paterno assistants personally witnessed Jerry Sandusky abusing children, NBC News revealed today. That report comes on the heels of testimony given in Penn State’s lawsuit against its insurer revealed this week, alleging Paterno knew of Sandusky molesting children as early as 1976.

Sandusky is currently serving 30 to 60 years in prison after being convicted of molesting ten children, dating back to 1994. More alleged acts dating prior to those brought by the prosecution have emerged in the insurance lawsuit, and now sources tell NBC that a former Penn State assistant witnessed a Sandusky incident “in the late 1970s,” while three other coaches witnessed incidents in the 1990s.

 

That school shouldn't have a football program anymore.

[Gothamite]

They need to be stripped of their program immediately.  The school has shown that it can't handle it, from the coaches who excused and enabled child rape, to the administration who venerated them, to the students and alumni who now pretend it wasn't really a big deal. 

 

Nuke it, lest another university ever think this was okay.  Make the program and the people who ran it as radioactive as the school should have. 

[pcgd]

I just discovered that there are Jerry Sandusky truthers.  Not JoePa truthers... People who believe Sandusky is innocent.  And it's not just one crazy.  I read this article:

 

http://www.cnn.com/2016/05/06/us/jerry-sandusky-victims-paterno-penn-state/

 

Which is horrible and I decided to see what Twitter thought.  (I know....). That lead me me to this guy on Twitter who is a nationally syndicated radio host and was bashing that article:

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/Zigmanfreud

 

Which he tweeted this website over and over:

 

http://framingpaterno.com

 

That says Jerry. Sandusky. Is. Innocent. What. The. :censored:.

[The_Admiral]

8 minutes ago, pcgd said:

Which is horrible and I decided to see what Twitter thought.  (I know....). That lead me me to this guy on Twitter who is a nationally syndicated radio host and was bashing that article:

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/Zigmanfreud

 

John Ziegler is a f-cking c-nt like few alive

[HedleyLamarr]

Barring a "forever" answer, how long should Penn State have been given the death penalty for football?  Even including an "in perpetuity" death option, Penn State football will always be associated with Paterno.  One year, five years, whatever....it will always be Paterno's program.  I think that's why the NCAA didn't give them the death penalty....ultimately, football games being played (or lack thereof) doesn't solve whatever mental/emotional distress the victims have/had.  Ridding the program of all that allowed this to go on (coaches, administrative staff, etc.) would do more to prevent future mishaps, adhering to those 100+ guidelines the NCAA required PSU to meet, and supplying restitution for the victims would go a lot further.  And, allowing PSU to get out of punishments early wasn't a wise idea.

 

I had always given Joe Paterno a slight benefit of the doubt in this, but only in terms of "Ok, a 70-ish year old man doesn't quite grasp the concept of a man wanting to have sexual relations with children".  (Much like older generations simply can't come to terms with why the 1976 "World's Greatest Male Athlete" is now a woman.)  Most 70+ year olds just don't understand certain things and aren't as sharp as they once were.  While I think Paterno could have done more, I could at least reason why he didn't with "Maybe he just really didn't understand the magnitude of what was going on.".

 

But if he knew 35 years earlier than what was first reported, that argument goes by the boards.  I don't know how rampant pedophilia was back in the mid-70's, but Paterno...being in his late 30's or early 40's (however old he was)...would have definitely had a better grasp of the situation.

 

Paterno got fired and is now dead, and went to the grave with more shame than honor nation-wide.  Sandusky is serving a lengthy prison sentence where he'll likely die before being released (Wasn't he just recently in the news about appealing or something?  I assume this is why these new allegations/fact are coming out now.).  Like BBTV said, they've cleaned house of just about everyone and are now under strict guidelines from the NCAA.  I really don't know how you'd punish Penn State again, other than monetarily, that will do justice to the victims.  If I were suffering any sort of emotional or mental trauma, a team playing football or not wouldn't change what I'm going through.

 

While I could get behind a shutting down of the program, it had to have happened during the initial punishments.  Doing it now would only be punishing those not involved (players, coaching staff, athletics department, administrative staff, and the athletes of the other sports).  I don't know what the right answer is, other than doing more in the way of support and mending and rehab for the victims.  Those involved in the covering up or administering of said acts are already no longer a part of Penn State.

[The_Admiral]

6 minutes ago, HedleyLamarr said:

I had always given Joe Paterno a slight benefit of the doubt in this, but only in terms of "Ok, a 70-ish year old man doesn't quite grasp the concept of a man wanting to have sexual relations with children".

 

Joe Paterno studied the classics! All the ancient Greeks did was bang boys!

[IceCap]

1 hour ago, HedleyLamarr said:

Barring a "forever" answer, how long should Penn State have been given the death penalty for football?  Even including an "in perpetuity" death option, Penn State football will always be associated with Paterno.  One year, five years, whatever....it will always be Paterno's program.  I think that's why the NCAA didn't give them the death penalty....ultimately, football games being played (or lack thereof) doesn't solve whatever mental/emotional distress the victims have/had.  Ridding the program of all that allowed this to go on (coaches, administrative staff, etc.) would do more to prevent future mishaps, adhering to those 100+ guidelines the NCAA required PSU to meet, and supplying restitution for the victims would go a lot further.  And, allowing PSU to get out of punishments early wasn't a wise idea.

 

I had always given Joe Paterno a slight benefit of the doubt in this, but only in terms of "Ok, a 70-ish year old man doesn't quite grasp the concept of a man wanting to have sexual relations with children".  (Much like older generations simply can't come to terms with why the 1976 "World's Greatest Male Athlete" is now a woman.)  Most 70+ year olds just don't understand certain things and aren't as sharp as they once were.  While I think Paterno could have done more, I could at least reason why he didn't with "Maybe he just really didn't understand the magnitude of what was going on.".

 

But if he knew 35 years earlier than what was first reported, that argument goes by the boards.  I don't know how rampant pedophilia was back in the mid-70's, but Paterno...being in his late 30's or early 40's (however old he was)...would have definitely had a better grasp of the situation.

 

Paterno got fired and is now dead, and went to the grave with more shame than honor nation-wide.  Sandusky is serving a lengthy prison sentence where he'll likely die before being released (Wasn't he just recently in the news about appealing or something?  I assume this is why these new allegations/fact are coming out now.).  Like BBTV said, they've cleaned house of just about everyone and are now under strict guidelines from the NCAA.  I really don't know how you'd punish Penn State again, other than monetarily, that will do justice to the victims.  If I were suffering any sort of emotional or mental trauma, a team playing football or not wouldn't change what I'm going through.

 

While I could get behind a shutting down of the program, it had to have happened during the initial punishments.  Doing it now would only be punishing those not involved (players, coaching staff, athletics department, administrative staff, and the athletes of the other sports).  I don't know what the right answer is, other than doing more in the way of support and mending and rehab for the victims.  Those involved in the covering up or administering of said acts are already no longer a part of Penn State.

"But the people there now didn't do anything..." doesn't cut it. The hockey team, THE G-DDAMN HOCKEY TEAM, sported "409 Win" stickers. That's not even the sport Paterno coached, but that doesn't mean they're not part of the cult.

So should PSU shut down all of its athletic programs? Well no...probably. Cutting out the cancer that caused all of this though? That's the football program. This isn't a school offering recruits money under the table or players trading helmets for tattoos. This is a school putting the image of the football program ahead of the well being of children. The football program, and the cult Joe Paterno fostered around it, is directly responsible for those kids getting hurt.

 

And spare me the "if it were me Penn State losing its football team wouldn't make me feel better" bit. I don't know you Hedley, so I do apologize from the bottom of my heart if I'm wrong about this. I'm just going to play the odds though, and guess you haven't been the target of this sort of abuse. If not? You're not in any sort of position to make an informed guess as to how the victims of Jerry Sandusky might feel.

 

The sad fact is that nothing is going to undo what was done to those victims. The best that can be done for them directly is to help them try and cope and understand what it is that's happened, and for the university to continue to support charities that help victims of similar crimes.

All that does is help the victims. It doesn't address why they were made victims in the first place. And that gets us back to a university prizing the image of its football program over that of the well being of children. This is the absolute worst case scenario of America's obsession with football. Is it an indictment against the totality of college football? No, but it is an indictment of Penn State's ability to view football with a proper perspective. That everyone known to be involved in this cover-up is gone is immaterial. The Cult of Paterno lives in.

 

Nothing short of purging that in its entirety should be acceptable. If that means no football for five years? So be it. Ten years? So be it. Twenty years? So be it. In perpetuity? So be it. Let the smoking crater that should be Penn State Football serve as a monument to the arrogance and extreme lack of perspective that allowed a sexual predator to harm children in the name of an amateur football program.

[Viola73]

3 hours ago, Ice_Cap said:

It nukes the program that allowed all of this to happen. 

So, if by "nuking" the program that allowed it to happen, shouldn't we also nuke child services who investigated Sandusky and found nothing. Nuke the state police who investigated Sandusky and found nothing. These are the people who had the true power to stop Sandusky and wound up with bupkis. 

[GFB]

1 hour ago, HedleyLamarr said:

Barring a "forever" answer, how long should Penn State have been given the death penalty for football? 

 

Back when the sanctions were given out, I would have said 2-3 years would probably be enough. It would have cleared out the majority of the roster, clean out the coaches and football administration, and it would have forced the program to reboot from scratch. That's also a short enough window of time to allow the athletic department to get by without its biggest cash cow to support the other programs.

 

Now, make them give James Franklin a 10-year contract extension.  All jokes aside, all I want to see is some form of whitewashing of the Paterno era. Take down the statues, blot out the names, clear the record books (something that meant SO MUCH to Paterno), change the uniforms... Anything to say "Something awful happened here, we understand it, and we are not those people any longer."