2013 NBA Playoffs

[IceCap]

I like LeBron James as a player. He's a hell of a talent. I don't know him personally, but just from what I've seen of him I'd have to say he seems like an ok guy. No hate there. LeBron James is, to use a hockey term, "the next great one." To see him succeed, in his prime, is something special.

That being said, there are a few things to consider. The Heat weren't built through smart trades, smart drafting, and good coaching. They were built by three superstars (well two superstars and one pretty good player) all deciding that it would be neat to play on the same team, and hey, isn't Miami nice this time of the year? Nothing about how the Heat came together was wrong, but it's not a good story. If you're falling head over heels to defend LeBron James like so many people here are doing you can't really say anyone is wrong for being rubbed the wrong way by the way this Heat team came together. You can't force people to like what is essentially the greatest anti-underdog story since the mid-late 90s/early 2000s New York Yankees.

Secondly both sides are border-line grating in this debate. Like I said before I think LeBron James is great. Everyone who goes out of their way to hate him just comes off as petty by this point. I swear, there's a lot of undeserved hatred being thrown at the man. Both here and elsewhere. The loudest of the pro-James crowd, however, are just as annoying, even if I agree with them. It's kind of a reverse Twilight situation, really. There you had terrible books/movies where it seemed like people who were technically right by hating them just lost their G-ddamn minds and started hating them obnoxiously. Same thing here. The anti-James crowd is so ridiculous that the loudest pro-James people have to be just as loud and grating to match it.

And it just makes me not give a crap anymore, which is really sad considering just what a remarkable talent LeBron James is.

[Kramerica Industries]

I'm spoilering this because it has nothing to do with basketball at all.

The lightest of nitpicks, with a twist of irony associated with it.

No, those 1994-2001 Yankees teams weren't exactly "underdogs" (the Yankees will never be anybody's underdog for obvious reasons), but those teams actually were kind of the blueprint of building a championship team; drafting well and developing the prospects (Derek Jeter, Bernie Williams, Andy Pettitte, Mo Rivera, etc.), a few smart trades (David Cone, Tino Martinez, Paul O'Neill, Scott Brosius, etc.) , and then some smart free agent signings to bolster the roster (David Wells, Jimmy Key, etc.). It's actually been those Yankees teams since then, notably 2002-2009, that were almost entirely about trading and signing superstars to enormous contracts, farm system be damned, and, of course, it was those aged out, overpaid rosters that have only produced one world championship in the 12 seasons that have followed since 2000.

I'm not trying to take away from your point, because it stands regardless. I just fear that, in general, the late '90s dynasty years of the Yankees often gets lumped in with George Steinbrenner and his increasing late-life money-spending insanity. Those '90s teams had their foundation laid down when Steinbrenner was banned from the sport, curiously enough (to what extent he was actually barred from team activities, who the hell knows) and without having the pressure of Steinbrenner breathing down their backs, Stick Michael and company were able to build the roster from the ground-up. The results were quite excellent.

[Rockstar Matt]

Like it or not, LeBron is already up there. He's dominating the game in a way never seen before. He's like the love child of Jordan, Magic, Oscar and Wilt.

From the second half of Game 6 through all of Game 7, he was an absolute beast. When his team needed him desperately. Thus, cementing himself as one of the game's greats. When it's all said and done, you know he'll be up there, so why not put him up there already?

Man you don't just put someone ahead of a bunch of all time great legends because you think he might rival them one day. All time rankings are always based on what a player actually achieves, not what he might achieve one day. And so far Lebron isn't in conversation with the likes of Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Russell, Wilt, Duncan and Shaq.

At one point Kobe was out of most people's Top 10 all time list when he was leading Lakers to 8th seed and at one point Vince Carter looked like the next Jordan...There's a reason games are played!

(and for the record i have Lebron #9 on my list, so im not hating on the dude. Just being realistic on where he stands right now).

I don't think LeBron will rival them one day, he already has. He's a ten year vet (a large enough sample size to compare to the greats, remember Magic played about 10 or so seasons, and that was enough to make him the greatest 1 guard ever.) he's been the world's best basketball since at least 2010 (without any debate). To me, he's done enough to warrant such high placement on my personal Top 10 all-time. And I know I'm not the only one.

Remember, I'm a Lakers fan. I don't like the Heat, but I love watching greatness. No matter where it comes from. That's why Tim Duncan is one of my favorite players, even though he plays for a Laker rival.

I think they are only 3 current players who are in the Top 10 All-Time.

Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan and LeBron James.

My list is thus:

1. Jordan

2. Magic

3. LeBron

4. Kareem

5. Wilt

6. Kobe

7. Duncan

8. Bird

9. Shaq

10. Oscar

[vmd9]

That being said, there are a few things to consider. The Heat weren't built through smart trades, smart drafting, and good coaching. They were built by three superstars (well two superstars and one pretty good player) all deciding that it would be neat to play on the same team, and hey, isn't Miami nice this time of the year? Nothing about how the Heat came together was wrong, but it's not a good story. If you're falling head over heels to defend LeBron James like so many people here are doing you can't really say anyone is wrong for being rubbed the wrong way by the way this Heat team came together. You can't force people to like what is essentially the greatest anti-underdog story since the mid-late 90s/early 2000s New York Yankees.

I get very annoyed at people crediting the Heat organization, Pat Riley, and Eric Spoelstra. I just don't see what exactly they did to earn this championship other than having this team fall right into their laps. It's like a guy winning millions from the Powerball and people saying he worked hard for it.

[DG_ThenNowForever]

To be honest, I'd be surprised if the Heat made the Finals next year. Compared to the rest of the league, they've essential played an additional season, plus LeBron was on the 2012 Olympic team. That's a lot of mileage on those guys, and eventually, injuries begin to creep up.

And to be doubly honest, it's not like they were dominant against the Spurs. If Duncan is playing that last play of Game 6, or if he makes that shot at the end of Game 7, it's a different story. Yeah, the only thing that matters is who won, but it was about as even a seven-game series can be.

[alxy8s]

To be honest, I'd be surprised if the Heat made the Finals next year. Compared to the rest of the league, they've essential played an additional season, plus LeBron was on the 2012 Olympic team. That's a lot of mileage on those guys, and eventually, injuries begin to creep up.

And to be doubly honest, it's not like they were dominant against the Spurs. If Duncan is playing that last play of Game 6, or if he makes that shot at the end of Game 7, it's a different story. Yeah, the only thing that matters is who won, but it was about as even a seven-game series can be.

Making the Finals will be a bigger challenge than winning it next year. Getting past the Bulls and/or (hopefully just or) Pacers will be a misery.

If the streak never got going, I think they would have had a much easier time in the playoffs. They essentially had an additional month of playoff games trying to keep an arbitrary accomplishment alive. Wade pushed through pain when he would have otherwise sat out and ended up injuring himself.

The Heat haven't had the Big 3 at good health in the playoffs since 2011. If they do a good job of monitoring Wade's minutes and he can make it to April unscathed, this team will be formidable. If they finally find a traditional big man, it's hard to see them losing. They have to put in so much energy into making up for the absence of a decent center that it inevitably takes a toll on them.

[Lights Out]

They should at least get credit for creating the cap space to sign the big three

This. It sounds easy to do, but with how convoluted the NBA's salary cap rules are, even under the old CBA, it took extremely shrewd cap management for Riley to make it possible - and the Heat still fielded playoff teams in three of the four years between the '06 title and the formation of the Big Three.

[IceCap]

They should at least get credit for creating the cap space to sign the big three

This. It sounds easy to do, but with how convoluted the NBA's salary cap rules are, even under the old CBA, it took extremely shrewd cap management for Riley to make it possible - and the Heat still fielded playoff teams in three of the four years between the '06 title and the formation of the Big Three.

You can't force people to like what is essentially the greatest anti-underdog story since the mid-late 90s/early 2000s New York Yankees.

Also James took a pay cut.

[rams80]

They should at least get credit for creating the cap space to sign the big three

This. It sounds easy to do, but with how convoluted the NBA's salary cap rules are, even under the old CBA, it took extremely shrewd cap management for Riley to make it possible - and the Heat still fielded playoff teams in three of the four years between the '06 title and the formation of the Big Three.

In the Eastern Conference.

Low bar is low.

[ninersdd]

Yeah, admittedly it seems like the Heat should've dominated their opponents more, for them being the best team in the league. They really only looked dominant in 2 of the games in the Final, the Pacers took them to 7, and even the battered Bulls took a game from them. Hell, even during their long win streak, the Kings and Magic almost won in Miami. For such a talented team, the Heat definitely had a few close calls this year.

[HedleyLamarr]

Yeah, admittedly it seems like the Heat should've dominated their opponents more, for them being the best team in the league. They really only looked dominant in 2 of the games in the Final, the Pacers took them to 7, and even the battered Bulls took a game from them. Hell, even during their long win streak, the Kings and Magic almost won in Miami. For such a talented team, the Heat definitely had a few close calls this year.

NBA needed some drama, so they asked the Heat to make things at least look a little close.

[dbadefense1990]

They should at least get credit for creating the cap space to sign the big three

This. It sounds easy to do, but with how convoluted the NBA's salary cap rules are, even under the old CBA, it took extremely shrewd cap management for Riley to make it possible - and the Heat still fielded playoff teams in three of the four years between the '06 title and the formation of the Big Three.

In the Eastern Conference.

Low bar is low.

Oh yes. This was when all the sizzle in the NBA happened out west. All culminating with the trade deadline in 2008, where several blockbuster deals (as they were called) were made within days of one another to bolster the lineups of Western teams.

[The_Admiral]

Wade insisting on being called "Three" makes him one of the great doofuses of our time.

Also, hbgoo is some serious next-level and no one is really talking about it.

[StillS]

Like it or not, LeBron is already up there. He's dominating the game in a way never seen before. He's like the love child of Jordan, Magic, Oscar and Wilt.

From the second half of Game 6 through all of Game 7, he was an absolute beast. When his team needed him desperately. Thus, cementing himself as one of the game's greats. When it's all said and done, you know he'll be up there, so why not put him up there already?

Man you don't just put someone ahead of a bunch of all time great legends because you think he might rival them one day. All time rankings are always based on what a player actually achieves, not what he might achieve one day. And so far Lebron isn't in conversation with the likes of Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Russell, Wilt, Duncan and Shaq.

At one point Kobe was out of most people's Top 10 all time list when he was leading Lakers to 8th seed and at one point Vince Carter looked like the next Jordan...There's a reason games are played!

(and for the record i have Lebron #9 on my list, so im not hating on the dude. Just being realistic on where he stands right now).

I don't think LeBron will rival them one day, he already has. He's a ten year vet (a large enough sample size to compare to the greats, remember Magic played about 10 or so seasons, and that was enough to make him the greatest 1 guard ever.) he's been the world's best basketball since at least 2010 (without any debate). To me, he's done enough to warrant such high placement on my personal Top 10 all-time. And I know I'm not the only one.

Remember, I'm a Lakers fan. I don't like the Heat, but I love watching greatness. No matter where it comes from. That's why Tim Duncan is one of my favorite players, even though he plays for a Laker rival.

I think they are only 3 current players who are in the Top 10 All-Time.

Kobe Bryant, Tim Duncan and LeBron James.

My list is thus:

1. Jordan

2. Magic

3. LeBron

4. Kareem

5. Wilt

6. Kobe

7. Duncan

8. Bird

9. Shaq

10. Oscar

Im sorry but I can't take you seriously when you don't have a guy who has 11 championships and 5 MVP's in your top 10. I also can't take you seriously for thinking Lebron has somehow surpassed Kareem who won 6 championships, 6 MVP's and 2 FMVP's. same goes for Wilt, Duncan, Shaq and maybe even Bird.

This kind of homerism isn't even visible among Heat fans

[IceCap]

They should at least get credit for creating the cap space to sign the big three

This. It sounds easy to do, but with how convoluted the NBA's salary cap rules are, even under the old CBA, it took extremely shrewd cap management for Riley to make it possible - and the Heat still fielded playoff teams in three of the four years between the '06 title and the formation of the Big Three.

Another thing, that ties in with the fact that James took a pay cut to play for the Heat. The whole point of this exercise was that Wade, James, and Bosh wanted to play together. They would have worked out whatever had to be done on the financial side of things to make that happen.

"Having three superstars who want to play together on your team" isn't exactly the height of GMing.

[Lee Noire]

I'm sure Wade was joking. He was joking right? 3? Really?

[IceCap]

So you think if the heat had only 6M in cap space they all would have played for 2 mil a year?

No, but they didn't just have $6 million in cap space. They had enough money to sign all three of them. They just had to do some tweaking, and they did. So I remain unimpressed.

[Lights Out]

No, but they didn't just have $6 million in cap space. They had enough money to sign all three of them.

And that was only because of years of careful planning and fiscal responsibility by Riley.

[IceCap]

No, but they didn't just have $6 million in cap space. They had enough money to sign all three of them.

And that was only because of years of careful planning and fiscal responsibility by Riley.

Unless Riley knew years in advance that the "big three" would come together on his team I, again, remain unimpressed.

Yes, Riley made smart, fiscally responsible moves in the years leading up to sighing James and Bosh. All that means, however, is that he had money available when those players, and Wade, showed up and said "hey we want to play together on your team."

Again, not the height of GMing on Riley's part.

[rams80]

No, but they didn't just have $6 million in cap space. They had enough money to sign all three of them.

And that was only because of years of careful planning and fiscal responsibility by Riley.

A decent chunk of the league was trying to clear cap space for the free agency of James et. al. Woo you did something the rest of your peers did.