2013 NBA Playoffs

[OnWis97]

The way that LeBron conducts himself, especially last night makes the people that constantly hate on him and complain about "the decision" look foolish.

Agreed. He was willing to toil in Cleveland for 7 years. He was willing to take less money. He joined a superteam, which was stupid...he should have said "Cavs, don't draft me, I'll only play in a big market." Then we'd all love him and his rings.

And hating LeBron for his attitude and personality while simultaneously liking a prick like Kobe Bryant...weird.

[Alex Houston]

The main thing is I try not to follow his stock words about his competition, because too many players take a page out of George St. Pierre's book and act humble and say all the right things, but fans know when the intent is disingenuous.

I completely disagree that it was disingenuous. LeBron, Popovich, and Duncan all have plenty of respect for each other.

LeBron didn't have to say anything about the Spurs at all, but chose to have his first comments be laudatory ones about the Spurs organization. He didn't say one thing about the Thunder in the 2 post-game interviews last year.

It's fine to not like LeBron, but at some point, it just comes off as searching desperately for things not to like.

I'm not searching for things to hate. I hate him because of things I've seen and the reasons people state why they like him aren't convincing for me. If he gets older and becomes more subdued, then my disliking will likely subside, but as of now, it just isn't there.

The point OnWis97 makes is worthy of discussion as well.

[Eye]

I'll never blame him either for leaving Cleveland—after all, when your FO wouldn't give up JJ Hickson in a deal for Amare', what would you have entrusted them to do? Acquire Amare' at the deadline in 2010 and I think you've got a decent shot of keeping LeBron in Cleveland. Unfortunately you didn't do that and he bolted. Can't blame him for that but it doesn't mean we like it.

hahaha. Of course he left Cleveland, you guys thought Amar'e Stoudemire would help bring a championship. Amar'e is selfish and unless he changes will never win a title.

[MDGP]

The way that LeBron conducts himself, especially last night makes the people that constantly hate on him and complain about "the decision" look foolish.

Agreed. He was willing to toil in Cleveland for 7 years. He was willing to take less money. He joined a superteam, which was stupid...he should have said "Cavs, don't draft me, I'll only play in a big market." Then we'd all love him and his rings.

And hating LeBron for his attitude and personality while simultaneously liking a prick like Kobe Bryant...weird.

I completely agree with both these statements, though I think LeBron truly wanted to be with Cleveland, but realized that there was no way he was winning a championship if he didn't leave. I blame ESPN more for the decision debacle and think he just got caught up in it. ESPN was the pimp, and LeBron was the prostitute in that situation.

In regards to the Kobe-LeBron comparison, it is completely hypocritical to hate LeBron's attitude and like Kobe. Kobe is arguably the biggest jerk in the league, and renowned as a terrible team player. Sure, LeBron whines, but so does every superstar. It's the nature of the NBA. LeBron still seems to be a good guy at heart, Kobe is just a dick.

[TalktoChuck]

The way that LeBron conducts himself, especially last night makes the people that constantly hate on him and complain about "the decision" look foolish.

Agreed. He was willing to toil in Cleveland for 7 years. He was willing to take less money. He joined a superteam, which was stupid...he should have said "Cavs, don't draft me, I'll only play in a big market." Then we'd all love him and his rings.

And hating LeBron for his attitude and personality while simultaneously liking a prick like Kobe Bryant...weird.

I completely agree with both these statements, though I think LeBron truly wanted to be with Cleveland, but realized that there was no way he was winning a championship if he didn't leave. I blame ESPN more for the decision debacle and think he just got caught up in it. ESPN was the pimp, and LeBron was the prostitute in that situation.

In regards to the Kobe-LeBron comparison, it is completely hypocritical to hate LeBron's attitude and like Kobe. Kobe is arguably the biggest jerk in the league, and renowned as a terrible team player. Sure, LeBron whines, but so does every superstar. It's the nature of the NBA. LeBron still seems to be a good guy at heart, Kobe is just a dick.

Plus there's Kobe's legal problems...

[Rockstar Matt]

Stop posting.

Your unbelievably stupid hatred of LeBron is extremely tiring. He is one the greatest players ever, who's consistently hated on by blokes like yourself. Dudes who don't understand squat about basketball.

And LightsOut has a better understanding of the NBA than you ever will.

On tonight's game, it was one of the better Game 7's I've seen. LeBron has cemented himself, in my opinion as one of the 3 greatest players of all-time. Only Magic and Jordan compare now.

And I hope that wasn't the last of Tim Duncan. The greatest PF ever and one of the top 10 players ever. He's one helluva competitor.

You can't call out someone's else understanding of NBA and then name Lebron in Top 3 of all time. It's debatable if you rank him above Larry Bird (i don't , not yet atleast) but Kareem, Bill Russell, Duncan, Shaq and Wilt are still comfortably ahead of Lebron. And of those guys i listed Kareem and Bill Russell still have a very strong argument for the greatest player of all time!

I have seen this elsewhere too, it's like people can't help themselves but overreact right now.

Like it or not, LeBron is already up there. He's dominating the game in a way never seen before. He's like the love child of Jordan, Magic, Oscar and Wilt.

From the second half of Game 6 through all of Game 7, he was an absolute beast. When his team needed him desperately. Thus, cementing himself as one of the game's greats. When it's all said and done, you know he'll be up there, so why not put him up there already?

[Xist2inspire]

ALSO: Someone mentioned something about superteams and front offices on the last page. The major difference between, say what the Heat have and what the Spurs do is that the Heat's superteam is more about three guys getting together and saying they wanted to play together and Miami happens to be a nice city during the winter and stuff. That's different than drafting and developing players, making intelligent trades, and the key free agent signing every once in awhile.

This. That message was in reply to me. And while there is no question that basketball is more susceptible to superteams than other sports, I think what I really don't like is the players saying "let's get together in (cosmopolitan city)" and win some rings. That is what could lead us to 6 teams and 24 scrimmage partners.

While I agree with your concerns, I still stand by my statement that this is only a symptom of a larger issue.

The NBA has gotten to a very bad state. We say we want unselfish stars, but then expect them to toil away, wasting their youth by relying solely on their talents to achieve individual glory, aka "selfishness." It's only after they've repeatedly failed in their misguided efforts that it becomes acceptable to leave, join other "superstars" and chase a ring without backlash (Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, etc.) To put it simply, we can't expect the current generation to behave after years and years of glorifying the individual talents of Magic, Larry, Michael, and Kobe, and using rings as the ultimate measuring stick of greatness.

Championships are a team achievement, not an individual one. We forget that Larry & Magic were drafted into top-level organizations. Take away Pippen, Grant, Rodman, and Phil, and Jordan becomes Clyde Drexler. Take away Shaq, and Kobe only has two rings. Take away Shaq & Phil, Kobe has none. Oscar Robertson was an incredible individual. Guess what? One ring. Wilt was simply phenomenal. Two rings. Bill Russell was amazing and had great teams around him. 11 rings. See a pattern?

This generation grew up on people hailing Jordan as god, and watching Tracy, AI, Vince, KG, Pierce, Ray, etc all crash and burn alone. They grew up when championships became the final say in determining one's greatness. So, is it any wonder that in order for players not wanting to be forgotten like Ewing, Wilkins, Baylor, etc, they'd decide that getting rings at any cost is the only logical way to go?

The NBA has long perpetuated the myth that if you're great, everything will magically fall into place and you'll be like Mike. If it doesn't, it's all on you, you're not good enough, bye loser. And that has affected every aspect of basketball, from high school, to college, to the pros, to the fans, to the players, to management. Hell, it's even affected the WNBA. They play a more team-oriented game, and every team has at least three really good players on it. But it's largely ignored, and not solely because they're women, but because it lacks the "flash" and "style" we've expected "real" basketball to have.

I've hoped that the formation of the Heat would cause a change in the status quo, forcing teams to say "hey wait, we either need to develop our own gang of stars (plural) or go get some", which sounds suspiciously like building an actual old-school team. Apparently it hasn't sunk in just yet. Maybe the fall of OKC will drive home the "you need more than just one or two stars" point further.

[OnWis97]

ALSO: Someone mentioned something about superteams and front offices on the last page. The major difference between, say what the Heat have and what the Spurs do is that the Heat's superteam is more about three guys getting together and saying they wanted to play together and Miami happens to be a nice city during the winter and stuff. That's different than drafting and developing players, making intelligent trades, and the key free agent signing every once in awhile.

This. That message was in reply to me. And while there is no question that basketball is more susceptible to superteams than other sports, I think what I really don't like is the players saying "let's get together in (cosmopolitan city)" and win some rings. That is what could lead us to 6 teams and 24 scrimmage partners.

While I agree with your concerns, I still stand by my statement that this is only a symptom of a larger issue.

The NBA has gotten to a very bad state. We say we want unselfish stars, but then expect them to toil away, wasting their youth by relying solely on their talents to achieve individual glory, aka "selfishness." It's only after they've repeatedly failed in their misguided efforts that it becomes acceptable to leave, join other "superstars" and chase a ring without backlash (Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Gary Payton, etc.) To put it simply, we can't expect the current generation to behave after years and years of glorifying the individual talents of Magic, Larry, Michael, and Kobe, and using rings as the ultimate measuring stick of greatness.

Championships are a team achievement, not an individual one. We forget that Larry & Magic were drafted into top-level organizations. Take away Pippen, Grant, Rodman, and Phil, and Jordan becomes Clyde Drexler. Take away Shaq, and Kobe only has two rings. Take away Shaq & Phil, Kobe has none. Oscar Robertson was an incredible individual. Guess what? One ring. Wilt was simply phenomenal. Two rings. Bill Russell was amazing and had great teams around him. 11 rings. See a pattern?

This generation grew up on people hailing Jordan as god, and watching Tracy, AI, Vince, KG, Pierce, Ray, etc all crash and burn alone. They grew up when championships became the final say in determining one's greatness. So, is it any wonder that in order for players not wanting to be forgotten like Ewing, Wilkins, Baylor, etc, they'd decide that getting rings at any cost is the only logical way to go?

The NBA has long perpetuated the myth that if you're great, everything will magically fall into place and you'll be like Mike. If it doesn't, it's all on you, you're not good enough, bye loser. And that has affected every aspect of basketball, from high school, to college, to the pros, to the fans, to the players, to management. Hell, it's even affected the WNBA. They play a more team-oriented game, and every team has at least three really good players on it. But it's largely ignored, and not solely because they're women, but because it lacks the "flash" and "style" we've expected "real" basketball to have.

I've hoped that the formation of the Heat would cause a change in the status quo, forcing teams to say "hey wait, we either need to develop our own gang of stars (plural) or go get some", which sounds suspiciously like building an actual old-school team. Apparently it hasn't sunk in just yet. Maybe the fall of OKC will drive home the "you need more than just one or two stars" point further.

I actually agree with most of this (though not the credit you give Phil...I think he's the one who gets too much credit). Your basic premise (correct me if I am wrong) is that "rings" are an over-rated measure and I could not agree more. As you mentioned, Magic and Bird were drafted into the two teams that hold nearly half of the NBA rings. LeBron to Cleveland. That matters. A lot. Jordan landed on a historically bad team, but one that was at least located in a place people (i.e. basketball players) find alluring. LeBron to Cleveland, a cold weather city nobody cares about...and they could not sign anyone to play with him. I still think his most impressive "team" feat is that team getting to the finals.

Take KG as an example. One ring is generally considered a big step up from zero rings. If he stays in Minnesota (which he did for many years out of loyalty), he retires with no rings. He goes to Boston and gets one. Is he therefore a better player because he went to Boston? No. He's the same quality of player that he'd have been losing in the first round in Minnesota. Same player, better circumstances. Now LeBron has great circumstances...a "super team" in a cosmopolitan city that players want to go to.

Take Stockton/Malone and Hakeem Olajuwan. Each was on a very good team in the 1990s. No rings for Utah and two for Houston. The biggest difference? Houston peaked during Jordan's hiatus. Utah peaked when the Bulls were unbeatable.

You cannot talk about great players without talking about big moments and rings add to their legacy and their collection of moments. But (to steal from this post) was Bill Russell better than Wilt? Maybe, but not 11 to 2 better.

[Lee Noire]

I acknowledge his talent and understand he'll win at least two more before his time is done, but I sure as hell don't like him as a person or respect the fanbase that idolizes him.

And I'm not directly replying to Bucfan because I don't feel like looking at that stupid face throughout the rest of this thread.

Ditto here. For all the marvelous talent LeBron has, it's snotty, obnoxious showboating like tonight's title presentation which make people despise him. Funny, I never heard Magic, Larry, Jordan, Kobe, Duncan or any other NBA legend blatantly disrespecting his opponents and skeptics, all while posing for the cameras in all his ego-ness. It's kind of fitting how James fits in with such a vile and non-deserving fanbase.

And add LightsOut to people not wanting to reply directly.

I'm must not have been watching the same presentation you were. First thing out of his mouth was giving respect to the Spurs then yes, he did stick it to his detractors. He gave them a taste of their own medicine. That's not snotty or egotistic, that's a grown man getting fed up with the hate and taking a moment he earned to shove his frustration in their faces.

I can't tell anyone how to feel but it seems like taking shots at LeBron, at this point is just not warranted.

Since James is a public figure, he will always have a target on his back. Unless he pulls off something akin to the Celtics run of the 60s and gets 7 or 8 rings, he'll always be thought of being right under MJ or Kobe, since those two are the gold standard many fans judge talent by these days.

As for the comments acknowledging the haters, he could still take the high road and not even bother mentioning those people who he addressed back in 2011 as "people who will still have to get up and go to work" or however he put it. It's like heckling an opposing team at a game. You don't have to actively call out the opposition when you're on the floor, you can stay the course and just root for your team, instead of trying to antagonize someone. It just makes you seem like a dick.

My main point is it would be more refreshing if a superstar of his caliber was more humble and wasn't so quick to take every endorsement deal or to drag out his decision on where to play with a special on ESPN. He's well aware of how much power and cache he has and the fact he displays little humility publicly, compared to someone like Duncan for instance, annoys me.

I'm pretty stupid since this just occurred to me, but this Finals matchup was really the battle of a team of divas and a team of the reserved. It's unfortunate it didn't end differently, but the Spurs shot themselves so much in the foot with those bad passes, they would've had to reorder several different prosthetics just to walk back on the plane.

What frustrates me about sports the most are fans that hold athletes to a higher standard than they would hold themselves to. Aside from the decision I have yet to see LeBron do something to suggest he isn't humble or grateful for his success. He said as much last night in front of the world. I can't fault him not taking the high road because again I'm not so sure in his position I wouldn't have done the same thing. Same with the endorsements.

Being an inner city kid that didn't have much growing up I too would take the perks that come with being the face of a product. If I were an endorser I could do much worse than LeBron. No arrests, no real bad press, charitable, popular. He is actually a role model(personally I would never idolize an entertainer or athlete, but point stands). Taking an endorsement doesn't make him less humble, it makes him a smart businessman. Lets not forget the man is a father and his kids are set for life because of his deals. LeBron is a smart guy and has a great sense of history when it comes to the game. He hasn't and never will disrespect his actual opponent(not his detractors that you compared them to)and speaking from a financial standpoint he should continue to further his brand. I would, does that make me worthy of hate and criticism?

The main thing is I try not to follow his stock words about his competition, because too many players take a page out of George St. Pierre's book and act humble and say all the right things, but fans know when the intent is disingenuous.

As for the disrespectful thing, I don't know how you can turn away a blind eye to some stuff he did. He tossed his warm up clothes intentionally away from a ball boy during a playoff match versus the Bulls, when the kid was standing right next to him. He does a pretty blantant bump against Spolstra during a different game and basically tells fans, in a nice way after the '11 loss, that they're losers because he's an athlete who has tons of money and he'll have a better life than them. On top of that, he mocks Nowitzki who was battling a virus during the series by doing a mock cough with Wade. It's little intangibles, like these, that prove character, not what you reharse when a bunch of microphones and cameras are looking you in the face.

You can support anyone and anything you want, but if you defend a polarizing figure in probably the second most popular sports in the country, you have to expect criticism back.

I'm not turning a blind eye, I just tend not to make mountains out of mole hills. I'll take that one example from '11 when HE WAS ASKED about what his haters will say and he told the truth. They can talk about him but at the end of the day it changed nothing. They still have to live their lives and he has to live his. Hell I'll play along with you, even if he was what you believe he was back then, you can't possibly tell me he hasn't grown and taken great strides to heal his image.

Again I feel some folks are expecting far too much from a person we should only be looking to for entertainment. That and holding him to a higher standard than they would hold themselves. I don't mean to judge you because I don't know you, but it just seems like nitpicking at this point man.

[infrared41]

And while there is no question that basketball is more susceptible to superteams than other sports, I think what I really don't like is the players saying "let's get together in (cosmopolitan city)" and win some rings. That is what could lead us to 6 teams and 24 scrimmage partners.

We're already there. In fact we've been there for a long time now. It's been like that since at least the 80's. Hell, in the 80's it was three teams and everyone else. In the early 80's it was LA, Philly, and Boston. Mid 80's it was Boston and LA. Late 80's Boston, LA, and Detroit. Houston broke up the party twice in the 80's, but both times were considered pretty big upsets.

[Xist2inspire]

I actually agree with most of this (though not the credit you give Phil...I think he's the one who gets too much credit). Your basic premise (correct me if I am wrong) is that "rings" are an over-rated measure and I could not agree more. As you mentioned, Magic and Bird were drafted into the two teams that hold nearly half of the NBA rings. LeBron to Cleveland. That matters. A lot. Jordan landed on a historically bad team, but one that was at least located in a place people (i.e. basketball players) find alluring. LeBron to Cleveland, a cold weather city nobody cares about...and they could not sign anyone to play with him. I still think his most impressive "team" feat is that team getting to the finals.

Take KG as an example. One ring is generally considered a big step up from zero rings. If he stays in Minnesota (which he did for many years out of loyalty), he retires with no rings. He goes to Boston and gets one. Is he therefore a better player because he went to Boston? No. He's the same quality of player that he'd have been losing in the first round in Minnesota. Same player, better circumstances. Now LeBron has great circumstances...a "super team" in a cosmopolitan city that players want to go to.

Take Stockton/Malone and Hakeem Olajuwan. Each was on a very good team in the 1990s. No rings for Utah and two for Houston. The biggest difference? Houston peaked during Jordan's hiatus. Utah peaked when the Bulls were unbeatable.

You cannot talk about great players without talking about big moments and rings add to their legacy and their collection of moments. But (to steal from this post) was Bill Russell better than Wilt? Maybe, but not 11 to 2 better.

Great post, I agree.

Honestly, I'm just a longtime basketball fan who grew up playing and has spent a ton of time reading about the history of the game. If I'd have had my way in life, I'd be preparing to be drafted right now. It's just sad to see how a sport that I love has gotten so warped in such a short time, and how it's affected so much. I'd like to eventually write something on this for the fun of it, if I could ever gather my thoughts enough to make a coherent article, that is.

EDIT: Oh, and as for Phil, I just give him major props for being able to deal with players of the caliber and temperament of Jordan & Kobe, which can't be easy. Also, I think the triangle system (shout out to Tex Winter too), was a key factor in both the Bulls and the Lakers' success. I give Phil more credit for Kobe and LA's success more than I do Jordan and Chicago's, however.

[hbgoo1975]

Reaction from a mysterious Spurs fan........

[OnWis97]

On 6/21/2013 at 1:34 PM, Xist2inspire said:

Honestly, I'm just a longtime basketball fan who grew up playing and has spent a ton of time reading about the history of the game. If I'd have had my way in life, I'd be preparing to be drafted right now. It's just sad to see how a sport that I love has gotten so warped in such a short time, and how it's affected so much. I'd like to eventually write something on this for the fun of it, if I could ever gather my thoughts enough to make a coherent article, that is.

EDIT: Oh, and as for Phil, I just give him major props for being able to deal with players of the caliber and temperament of Jordan & Kobe, which can't be easy. Also, I think the triangle system (shout out to Tex Winter too), was a key factor in both the Bulls and the Lakers' success. I give Phil more credit for Kobe and LA's success more than I do Jordan and Chicago's, however.

 

I don't deny Phil was a great, smart, innovative guy. Actually, what I'd like to have seen is him take over a team that's not "Championship Ready." That would be an interesting test.

 

[Alex Houston]

I acknowledge his talent and understand he'll win at least two more before his time is done, but I sure as hell don't like him as a person or respect the fanbase that idolizes him.

And I'm not directly replying to Bucfan because I don't feel like looking at that stupid face throughout the rest of this thread.

Ditto here. For all the marvelous talent LeBron has, it's snotty, obnoxious showboating like tonight's title presentation which make people despise him. Funny, I never heard Magic, Larry, Jordan, Kobe, Duncan or any other NBA legend blatantly disrespecting his opponents and skeptics, all while posing for the cameras in all his ego-ness. It's kind of fitting how James fits in with such a vile and non-deserving fanbase.

And add LightsOut to people not wanting to reply directly.

I'm must not have been watching the same presentation you were. First thing out of his mouth was giving respect to the Spurs then yes, he did stick it to his detractors. He gave them a taste of their own medicine. That's not snotty or egotistic, that's a grown man getting fed up with the hate and taking a moment he earned to shove his frustration in their faces.

I can't tell anyone how to feel but it seems like taking shots at LeBron, at this point is just not warranted.

Since James is a public figure, he will always have a target on his back. Unless he pulls off something akin to the Celtics run of the 60s and gets 7 or 8 rings, he'll always be thought of being right under MJ or Kobe, since those two are the gold standard many fans judge talent by these days.

As for the comments acknowledging the haters, he could still take the high road and not even bother mentioning those people who he addressed back in 2011 as "people who will still have to get up and go to work" or however he put it. It's like heckling an opposing team at a game. You don't have to actively call out the opposition when you're on the floor, you can stay the course and just root for your team, instead of trying to antagonize someone. It just makes you seem like a dick.

My main point is it would be more refreshing if a superstar of his caliber was more humble and wasn't so quick to take every endorsement deal or to drag out his decision on where to play with a special on ESPN. He's well aware of how much power and cache he has and the fact he displays little humility publicly, compared to someone like Duncan for instance, annoys me.

I'm pretty stupid since this just occurred to me, but this Finals matchup was really the battle of a team of divas and a team of the reserved. It's unfortunate it didn't end differently, but the Spurs shot themselves so much in the foot with those bad passes, they would've had to reorder several different prosthetics just to walk back on the plane.

What frustrates me about sports the most are fans that hold athletes to a higher standard than they would hold themselves to. Aside from the decision I have yet to see LeBron do something to suggest he isn't humble or grateful for his success. He said as much last night in front of the world. I can't fault him not taking the high road because again I'm not so sure in his position I wouldn't have done the same thing. Same with the endorsements.

Being an inner city kid that didn't have much growing up I too would take the perks that come with being the face of a product. If I were an endorser I could do much worse than LeBron. No arrests, no real bad press, charitable, popular. He is actually a role model(personally I would never idolize an entertainer or athlete, but point stands). Taking an endorsement doesn't make him less humble, it makes him a smart businessman. Lets not forget the man is a father and his kids are set for life because of his deals. LeBron is a smart guy and has a great sense of history when it comes to the game. He hasn't and never will disrespect his actual opponent(not his detractors that you compared them to)and speaking from a financial standpoint he should continue to further his brand. I would, does that make me worthy of hate and criticism?

The main thing is I try not to follow his stock words about his competition, because too many players take a page out of George St. Pierre's book and act humble and say all the right things, but fans know when the intent is disingenuous.

As for the disrespectful thing, I don't know how you can turn away a blind eye to some stuff he did. He tossed his warm up clothes intentionally away from a ball boy during a playoff match versus the Bulls, when the kid was standing right next to him. He does a pretty blantant bump against Spolstra during a different game and basically tells fans, in a nice way after the '11 loss, that they're losers because he's an athlete who has tons of money and he'll have a better life than them. On top of that, he mocks Nowitzki who was battling a virus during the series by doing a mock cough with Wade. It's little intangibles, like these, that prove character, not what you reharse when a bunch of microphones and cameras are looking you in the face.

You can support anyone and anything you want, but if you defend a polarizing figure in probably the second most popular sports in the country, you have to expect criticism back.

I'm not turning a blind eye, I just tend not to make mountains out of mole hills. I'll take that one example from '11 when HE WAS ASKED about what his haters will say and he told the truth. They can talk about him but at the end of the day it changed nothing. They still have to live their lives and he has to live his. Hell I'll play along with you, even if he was what you believe he was back then, you can't possibly tell me he hasn't grown and taken great strides to heal his image.

Again I feel some folks are expecting far too much from a person we should only be looking to for entertainment. That and holding him to a higher standard than they would hold themselves. I don't mean to judge you because I don't know you, but it just seems like nitpicking at this point man.

I don't take any attacks on message boards personally. There's much more important things to worry about than a disagreement I have with another person about a basketball player

But yea, I'll agree to disagree on this one. Some stuff you say is valid about the maturation, but I reside in my desire to wait longer to see how genuine this change really is.

[Lee Noire]

I acknowledge his talent and understand he'll win at least two more before his time is done, but I sure as hell don't like him as a person or respect the fanbase that idolizes him.

And I'm not directly replying to Bucfan because I don't feel like looking at that stupid face throughout the rest of this thread.

Ditto here. For all the marvelous talent LeBron has, it's snotty, obnoxious showboating like tonight's title presentation which make people despise him. Funny, I never heard Magic, Larry, Jordan, Kobe, Duncan or any other NBA legend blatantly disrespecting his opponents and skeptics, all while posing for the cameras in all his ego-ness. It's kind of fitting how James fits in with such a vile and non-deserving fanbase.

And add LightsOut to people not wanting to reply directly.

I'm must not have been watching the same presentation you were. First thing out of his mouth was giving respect to the Spurs then yes, he did stick it to his detractors. He gave them a taste of their own medicine. That's not snotty or egotistic, that's a grown man getting fed up with the hate and taking a moment he earned to shove his frustration in their faces.

I can't tell anyone how to feel but it seems like taking shots at LeBron, at this point is just not warranted.

Since James is a public figure, he will always have a target on his back. Unless he pulls off something akin to the Celtics run of the 60s and gets 7 or 8 rings, he'll always be thought of being right under MJ or Kobe, since those two are the gold standard many fans judge talent by these days.

As for the comments acknowledging the haters, he could still take the high road and not even bother mentioning those people who he addressed back in 2011 as "people who will still have to get up and go to work" or however he put it. It's like heckling an opposing team at a game. You don't have to actively call out the opposition when you're on the floor, you can stay the course and just root for your team, instead of trying to antagonize someone. It just makes you seem like a dick.

My main point is it would be more refreshing if a superstar of his caliber was more humble and wasn't so quick to take every endorsement deal or to drag out his decision on where to play with a special on ESPN. He's well aware of how much power and cache he has and the fact he displays little humility publicly, compared to someone like Duncan for instance, annoys me.

I'm pretty stupid since this just occurred to me, but this Finals matchup was really the battle of a team of divas and a team of the reserved. It's unfortunate it didn't end differently, but the Spurs shot themselves so much in the foot with those bad passes, they would've had to reorder several different prosthetics just to walk back on the plane.

What frustrates me about sports the most are fans that hold athletes to a higher standard than they would hold themselves to. Aside from the decision I have yet to see LeBron do something to suggest he isn't humble or grateful for his success. He said as much last night in front of the world. I can't fault him not taking the high road because again I'm not so sure in his position I wouldn't have done the same thing. Same with the endorsements.

Being an inner city kid that didn't have much growing up I too would take the perks that come with being the face of a product. If I were an endorser I could do much worse than LeBron. No arrests, no real bad press, charitable, popular. He is actually a role model(personally I would never idolize an entertainer or athlete, but point stands). Taking an endorsement doesn't make him less humble, it makes him a smart businessman. Lets not forget the man is a father and his kids are set for life because of his deals. LeBron is a smart guy and has a great sense of history when it comes to the game. He hasn't and never will disrespect his actual opponent(not his detractors that you compared them to)and speaking from a financial standpoint he should continue to further his brand. I would, does that make me worthy of hate and criticism?

The main thing is I try not to follow his stock words about his competition, because too many players take a page out of George St. Pierre's book and act humble and say all the right things, but fans know when the intent is disingenuous.

As for the disrespectful thing, I don't know how you can turn away a blind eye to some stuff he did. He tossed his warm up clothes intentionally away from a ball boy during a playoff match versus the Bulls, when the kid was standing right next to him. He does a pretty blantant bump against Spolstra during a different game and basically tells fans, in a nice way after the '11 loss, that they're losers because he's an athlete who has tons of money and he'll have a better life than them. On top of that, he mocks Nowitzki who was battling a virus during the series by doing a mock cough with Wade. It's little intangibles, like these, that prove character, not what you reharse when a bunch of microphones and cameras are looking you in the face.

You can support anyone and anything you want, but if you defend a polarizing figure in probably the second most popular sports in the country, you have to expect criticism back.

I'm not turning a blind eye, I just tend not to make mountains out of mole hills. I'll take that one example from '11 when HE WAS ASKED about what his haters will say and he told the truth. They can talk about him but at the end of the day it changed nothing. They still have to live their lives and he has to live his. Hell I'll play along with you, even if he was what you believe he was back then, you can't possibly tell me he hasn't grown and taken great strides to heal his image.

Again I feel some folks are expecting far too much from a person we should only be looking to for entertainment. That and holding him to a higher standard than they would hold themselves. I don't mean to judge you because I don't know you, but it just seems like nitpicking at this point man.

I don't take any attacks on message boards personally. There's much more important things to worry about than a disagreement I have with another person about a basketball player

But yea, I'll agree to disagree on this one. Some stuff you say is valid about the maturation, but I reside in my desire to wait longer to see how genuine this change really is.

That's fair. This was a good debate.

[StillS]

Like it or not, LeBron is already up there. He's dominating the game in a way never seen before. He's like the love child of Jordan, Magic, Oscar and Wilt.

From the second half of Game 6 through all of Game 7, he was an absolute beast. When his team needed him desperately. Thus, cementing himself as one of the game's greats. When it's all said and done, you know he'll be up there, so why not put him up there already?

Man you don't just put someone ahead of a bunch of all time great legends because you think he might rival them one day. All time rankings are always based on what a player actually achieves, not what he might achieve one day. And so far Lebron isn't in conversation with the likes of Jordan, Kareem, Magic, Russell, Wilt, Duncan and Shaq.

At one point Kobe was out of most people's Top 10 all time list when he was leading Lakers to 8th seed and at one point Vince Carter looked like the next Jordan...There's a reason games are played!

(and for the record i have Lebron #9 on my list, so im not hating on the dude. Just being realistic on where he stands right now).

[FiddySicks]

I honestly don't get all the love for Shaq. Was he a great player? Yeah of course, but you're seriously going to put him over a guy who's won the league MVP 4 times, two NBA titles, and two finals MVPs by the time he's 28?

And the argument is definitely on for Lebron being the best ever. If you compare his numbers now to Jordan's when he was 28, Lebron has accomplished more. If he keeps up this pace, it won't even be close. And barring him dying in a plane crash or getting his talent sucked out of him by the Nerdlucks, he's not going to decline. Hell, look at Jordan. From the time he was 28 till he retired with the Bulls, he only got better. If Lebron's career trends the same way (which I don't see why it wouldn't, other than the reasons previously stated), the haters better run in fear because he's going to be SCARY good.

[HedleyLamarr]

It was kinda douchy that LeBron wouldn't put down the NBA championship trophy (which still looks like a Little League trophy) while accepting the Finals MVP trophy from Bill Russell.

[StillS]

I honestly don't get all the love for Shaq. Was he a great player? Yeah of course, but you're seriously going to put him over a guy who's won the league MVP 4 times, two NBA titles, and two finals MVPs by the time he's 28?

Like i said, all time rankings are usually based on what a player does throughout his career, not what he has achieved at a particular time in his career. So far Shaq is a 4x Champion, 3x FMVP, 1x MVP with the most dominant prime since Wilt Chamberlain. Can Lebron get ahead of Shaq? Sure. He could even be in the top 5 if he continues to win, he has that potential. But we are only speculating there, for all we know Lebron could just as well retire with 2 rings.

[rams80]

I honestly don't get all the love for Shaq. Was he a great player? Yeah of course, but you're seriously going to put him over a guy who's won the league MVP 4 times, two NBA titles, and two finals MVPs by the time he's 28?

And the argument is definitely on for Lebron being the best ever. If you compare his numbers now to Jordan's when he was 28, Lebron has accomplished more. If he keeps up this pace, it won't even be close. And barring him dying in a plane crash or getting his talent sucked out of him by the Nerdlucks, he's not going to decline. Hell, look at Jordan. From the time he was 28 till he retired with the Bulls, he only got better. If Lebron's career trends the same way (which I don't see why it wouldn't, other than the reasons previously stated), the haters better run in fear because he's going to be SCARY good.

I know we're all about the trends and all that, but...

It would be more fair to compare LeBron at 28 to Jordan at 31. Jordan played college ball until after his Junior season.