NHL Anti-Thread: Bad Business Decision Aggregator

[Gothamite]

So let me get this straight - Glendale would rather mortage the very skeleton of their city's infrastructure in order to keep the Phoenix Coyotes around?

I just don't get it. I don't understand how any Coyotes fan can defend this.

"Without our hockey team, how will we show the rest of Arizona that Glendale is a virbrant metropolis, the equal of Paris or New York?"

They'd have been better spent building an Eiffel Tower if that was their intention.

I just figured, if we were going to start pulling out Futurama references...

[Crash]

They'd have been better spent building an Eiffel Tower if that was their intention.

I just figured, if we were going to start pulling out Futurama references...

They need to elect the first supervillain mayor who is willing to steal all the world's monuments and move them to Glendale.

[Still MIGHTY]

So let me get this straight - Glendale would rather mortage the very skeleton of their city's infrastructure in order to keep the Phoenix Coyotes around?

I just don't get it. I don't understand how any Coyotes fan can defend this.

Because if you're not a citizen of Glendale, it's really not your problem?

I actually got that sense from some of the Coyotes fans I talked to during the Chicago/Nashville series in the playoffs while the ownership negotiations were really going on. Like me, they'd like the Coyotes to stay and they also don't really have a huge stake in it.

I wouldn't put this on the Coyotes fans or the Coyotes franchise. As evidenced with bringing back up Camelback Ranch (which I've mentioned before) and these new recent cuts, this is all on Glendale. The Coyotes and their fans haven't done anything here. This is Glendale and the people that run it just being plain stupid and the fact that the majority of Coyotes fans aren't in Glendale. It's been said plenty of times, but this all would have worked a lot better had the Coyotes stayed downtown or gone to Scottsdale like originally planned. It's like it was said in an earlier article, the Coyotes could win the Stanley Cup and sell out every game for each of the next 30 seasons before and they still wouldn't have made money. That right there points the finger at Glendale and the deals they have made more than the team and its fans.

[BBTV]

So let me get this straight - Glendale would rather mortage the very skeleton of their city's infrastructure in order to keep the Phoenix Coyotes around?

I just don't get it. I don't understand how any Coyotes fan can defend this.

Because if you're not a citizen of Glendale, it's really not your problem?

In a way, it is though. It is setting a very dangerous precedent.

[IceCap]

So let me get this straight - Glendale would rather mortage the very skeleton of their city's infrastructure in order to keep the Phoenix Coyotes around?

I just don't get it. I don't understand how any Coyotes fan can defend this.

Because if you're not a citizen of Glendale, it's really not your problem?

I actually got that sense from some of the Coyotes fans I talked to during the Chicago/Nashville series in the playoffs while the ownership negotiations were really going on....I wouldn't put this on the Coyotes fans

Not our problem? Well aside from being the last ditch argument from the side clearly on the losing side of the discussion it can be viewed as all of our problems.

Practically speaking, if this, all of this, is allowed to happen, it'll set a precedent that teams will point to whenever they're set to negotiate with the locales they play in. If it happens in Glendale it has the potential to happen anywhere else, which is something that anyone not drunk off of the Shane Doan Kool-Aid can see as a bad thing.

Now lets talk about the ideological side of things. Whether I'm affected or not, I'm not out of line when I say that cutting millions of dollars and selling off G-ddamn City Hall for the sake of keeping a sports team is destructive, extremely short sighted, reckless, and a clear sign of incompetency on the part of the city's leadership.

As for this not being the fault of the Coyotes' fanbase? Well it's not their fault but they're not the innocent angles you paint them out as. You claim that most Coyotes fans aren't from Glendale. If true that makes them downright morally bankrupt as a fanbase. It's easy to say "sure let a city go bankrupt and put its own infrastructure up as collateral as long as I keep my sports team" when you don't actually live in the affected city. Take any of those "well meaning Coyotes fans" and let them talk to one of the civil servants who either lost their job or is about to in the name of keeping the Coyotes and see what they have to say.

[rams80]

"The petition going around now is to bring this decision to a vote, not for the peoples' voices to be heard, but for the deal to be killed by people who oppose any sort of government action to help improve the economy."

OK, it sounds like WestGate needs an anchor store to help attract shoppers. Here's a hint to the Glendale Council. THE COYOTES CLUBHOUSE IS NOT AN ANCHOR STORE.

[CS85]

Cut millions from the police/fire depts, and putting up city hall and the police station as collateral in order to PAY the NHL back as well as spread moneys to get the spring training ballpark expenses...sound like a good idea to anyone else?

How much can one city be willing to spend/sacrifice/tax in order to keep a team around that losing money hand over fist?

[Still MIGHTY]

So let me get this straight - Glendale would rather mortage the very skeleton of their city's infrastructure in order to keep the Phoenix Coyotes around?

I just don't get it. I don't understand how any Coyotes fan can defend this.

Because if you're not a citizen of Glendale, it's really not your problem?

I actually got that sense from some of the Coyotes fans I talked to during the Chicago/Nashville series in the playoffs while the ownership negotiations were really going on....I wouldn't put this on the Coyotes fans

Not our problem? Well aside from being the last ditch argument from the side clearly on the losing side of the discussion it can be viewed as all of our problems.

Practically speaking, if this, all of this, is allowed to happen, it'll set a precedent that teams will point to whenever they're set to negotiate with the locales they play in. If it happens in Glendale it has the potential to happen anywhere else, which is something that anyone not drunk off of the Shane Doan Kool-Aid can see as a bad thing.

Now lets talk about the ideological side of things. Whether I'm affected or not, I'm not out of line when I say that cutting millions of dollars and selling off G-ddamn City Hall for the sake of keeping a sports team is destructive, extremely short sighted, reckless, and a clear sign of incompetency on the part of the city's leadership.

As for this not being the fault of the Coyotes' fanbase? Well it's not their fault but they're not the innocent angles you paint them out as. You claim that most Coyotes fans aren't from Glendale. If true that makes them downright morally bankrupt as a fanbase. It's easy to say "sure let a city go bankrupt and put its own infrastructure up as collateral as long as I keep my sports team" when you don't actually live in the affected city. Take any of those "well meaning Coyotes fans" and let them talk to one of the civil servants who either lost their job or is about to in the name of keeping the Coyotes and see what they have to say.

Trust me, I see and understand all of what you're saying. It's stupid that this has been allowed to go on. I'm just stating an opposing opinion. As I've said numerous times in the thread (and I really don't know why I keep coming back to say it, but here I am), I would like the team to stay for my own personal reasons, but I completely understand why they would (and at this ridiculous point, really should) leave.

I disagree with the bolded statement though. Glendale was/is trying to market and project itself as something much larger than it is in reality. I think any other legitimate big league city wouldn't play these stupid games with a team. There are situations similar to Glendale/Coyotes in the sense of city's team playing in a suburb (Auburn Hills/Pistons, Arlington/Cowboys-Rangers, etc) but I can't off the top of my head think of any time a suburb tried to make themselves equal to its counterpart (and don't anybody try to turn this back on me with any Anaheim/LA comparisons. Anaheim/Orange County has always been a destination unto itself unlike Glendale). This whole thing (budget cuts/losing jobs/cutting of services/putting up the damn city hall as collateral) started because of Glendale's mighty aspirations. There are plenty of fingers to point, but the biggest one is right back at Glendale.

[Gothamite]

That, and at the lousy fanbase. If they would actaully come out to watch a playoff-quality team, the Coyotes wouldn't be in this situation.

But every single deal becomes precedent for the next. Even if real cities won't knuckle under to this extent, Glendale will still have wrecked the curve, and other cities will suffer for their inferiority complex.

[RevNet]

They'd have been better spent building an Eiffel Tower if that was their intention.

I just figured, if we were going to start pulling out Futurama references...

They need to elect the first supervillain mayor who is willing to steal all the world's monuments and move them to Glendale.

Would it be like this?:

http://www.veoh.com/watch/v19975208R3bp5jkX

[BrySmalls]

At this rate, I wouldn't be surprised if the next logical (illogical?) step in "keeping the Coyotes" in the desert is for Phoenix to incorporate Glendale within its city limits.

[IceCap]

So let me get this straight - Glendale would rather mortage the very skeleton of their city's infrastructure in order to keep the Phoenix Coyotes around?

I just don't get it. I don't understand how any Coyotes fan can defend this.

Because if you're not a citizen of Glendale, it's really not your problem?

I actually got that sense from some of the Coyotes fans I talked to during the Chicago/Nashville series in the playoffs while the ownership negotiations were really going on....I wouldn't put this on the Coyotes fans

Not our problem? Well aside from being the last ditch argument from the side clearly on the losing side of the discussion it can be viewed as all of our problems.

Practically speaking, if this, all of this, is allowed to happen, it'll set a precedent that teams will point to whenever they're set to negotiate with the locales they play in. If it happens in Glendale it has the potential to happen anywhere else, which is something that anyone not drunk off of the Shane Doan Kool-Aid can see as a bad thing.

Now lets talk about the ideological side of things. Whether I'm affected or not, I'm not out of line when I say that cutting millions of dollars and selling off G-ddamn City Hall for the sake of keeping a sports team is destructive, extremely short sighted, reckless, and a clear sign of incompetency on the part of the city's leadership.

As for this not being the fault of the Coyotes' fanbase? Well it's not their fault but they're not the innocent angles you paint them out as. You claim that most Coyotes fans aren't from Glendale. If true that makes them downright morally bankrupt as a fanbase. It's easy to say "sure let a city go bankrupt and put its own infrastructure up as collateral as long as I keep my sports team" when you don't actually live in the affected city. Take any of those "well meaning Coyotes fans" and let them talk to one of the civil servants who either lost their job or is about to in the name of keeping the Coyotes and see what they have to say.

Trust me, I see and understand all of what you're saying. It's stupid that this has been allowed to go on. I'm just stating an opposing opinion. As I've said numerous times in the thread (and I really don't know why I keep coming back to say it, but here I am), I would like the team to stay for my own personal reasons, but I completely understand why they would (and at this ridiculous point, really should) leave.

The thing is, we've past the point where opposing views should be given equal time. This is no longer an issue with shades of grey. A town is cutting millions of dollars, slashing civil services, and putting its own infrastructure up as collateral to keep a sports team that, in a good year, still losses millions of dollars on its own. We're at the point where the "anything to keep the Coyotes" camp has lost all credibility.

And I know that your attachment to this team is based around a "hey affordable NHL hockey within driving distance!" sentiment (though really, while I love NHL hockey it's not making me sympathize with you or the Coyotes "faithful," quite the opposite), and when I mentioned the Coyotes fans storming in here ever thirty pages oblivious to the facts posted before their entry I wasn't directing that at you.

Still, even as far as your admittedly selfish reasons go there has to be a limit, right? Like those Coyotes fans who you claim shouldn't be vilified, you're willing to put up with a team who's existence is literally destroying a town and the livelihoods of those who live in it just so you can have affordable NHL hockey. You're not from Glendale. You don't have to pay the price for their idiocy, yet you're ok with it because "hey, hockey!" You're not even native to Arizona either. Will you stay in the Phoenix metro area after university? If not it kind of makes it worse.

I understand that you admit that your reasoning for wanting the team to stay is selfish. What I'm saying is that we've finally hit the point where that selfishness really starts to get ugly when the we look at what Glendale is doing to itself for the sake of this team.

I disagree with the bolded statement though. Glendale was/is trying to market and project itself as something much larger than it is in reality. I think any other legitimate big league city wouldn't play these stupid games with a team. There are situations similar to Glendale/Coyotes in the sense of city's team playing in a suburb (Auburn Hills/Pistons, Arlington/Cowboys-Rangers, etc) but I can't off the top of my head think of any time a suburb tried to make themselves equal to its counterpart (and don't anybody try to turn this back on me with any Anaheim/LA comparisons. Anaheim/Orange County has always been a destination unto itself unlike Glendale). This whole thing (budget cuts/losing jobs/cutting of services/putting up the damn city hall as collateral) started because of Glendale's mighty aspirations. There are plenty of fingers to point, but the biggest one is right back at Glendale.

If something happens once, it can, and probably will, happen again. If any of the proposed deals to potential owners (Jamison's proposed deal included) were to happen then it would allow other teams, across all leagues and sports, to point to it and try to leverage as much as they can out of a city, possibly even to the point of determent to that city. You can say that the circumstances in Glendale are unique. I disagree. You'll find no shortage of municipal leaders who can be blinded by the "prestige" of pro sports.

[The_Admiral]

Personally, I'm particularly worried about how the Cubs will try to "creatively and dynamically" "partner" with the city to renovate their private property. And they'll say the same things, that it's a good investment because of tourism and surrounding businesses and whatever else, but the city doesn't have the money, and the Tribune seemed to take care of its property just fine with their own money. Fortunately, the Ricketts clan is such a bunch of tone-deaf square-state gomers that they can't present a plan to the city without leaving the flash drive with the PowerPoint on it at home. I'd hate to see Chicago raise its sales taxes even more just to build that stupid goddamn "triangle building" the Cubs have wanted for like ten years.

[troy_3223]

I disagree with the bolded statement though. Glendale was/is trying to market and project itself as something much larger than it is in reality. I think any other legitimate big league city wouldn't play these stupid games with a team. There are situations similar to Glendale/Coyotes in the sense of city's team playing in a suburb (Auburn Hills/Pistons, Arlington/Cowboys-Rangers, etc) but I can't off the top of my head think of any time a suburb tried to make themselves equal to its counterpart (and don't anybody try to turn this back on me with any Anaheim/LA comparisons. Anaheim/Orange County has always been a destination unto itself unlike Glendale). This whole thing (budget cuts/losing jobs/cutting of services/putting up the damn city hall as collateral) started because of Glendale's mighty aspirations. There are plenty of fingers to point, but the biggest one is right back at Glendale.

If something happens once, it can, and probably will, happen again. If any of the proposed deals to potential owners (Jamison's proposed deal included) were to happen then it would allow other teams, across all leagues and sports, to point to it and try to leverage as much as they can out of a city, possibly even to the point of determent to that city. You can say that the circumstances in Glendale are unique. I disagree. You'll find no shortage of municipal leaders who can be blinded by the "prestige" of pro sports.

There are other ways this has a negative effect on other cities. You can bet that people in Seattle and Quebec City are carefully watching this unfold. Chris Hansen has been very careful in trying to bring the NBA back to Seattle, trying to minimize the investment necessary for the city and county to get his arena built. There are members of the city and county councils who are opposed to it, and seem to be looking for any reason to oppose it (it seems like "because sports" works both ways). I suspect this will add to their opposition, and I imagine there are similarly-minded people in Quebec.

It would be reasonable to craft an argument that the NHL has used the city of Glendale, that Gary Bettman has allowed the city to be used to fund the league, and that the NHL does not partner well with municipalities. It's more of a reasonable argument that keeping the Coyotes in Glendale without an owner is financially motivated than the argument that it feeds his ego. I think in the long run, while the Coyotes provide the most hope for people in Seattle or Quebec to get the NHL to their cities, the city of Glendale's monumental idiocy will offset that hope.

[Still MIGHTY]

The thing is, we've past the point where opposing views should be given equal time.

Well of course. Why start now?

Still, even as far as your admittedly selfish reasons go there has to be a limit, right? Like those Coyotes fans who you claim shouldn't be vilified, you're willing to put up with a team who's existence is literally destroying a town and the livelihoods of those who live in it just so you can have affordable NHL hockey. You're not from Glendale. You don't have to pay the price for their idiocy, yet you're ok with it because "hey, hockey!" You're not even native to Arizona either. Will you stay in the Phoenix metro area after university? If not it kind of makes it worse.

I understand that you admit that your reasoning for wanting the team to stay is selfish. What I'm saying is that we've finally hit the point where that selfishness really starts to get ugly when the we look at what Glendale is doing to itself for the sake of this team.

I've never said that I was okay with it. My most recent argument was just to show what some of those actually in Arizona feel in response to "How do the people actually allow this?" I was providing personal experience as one of the few in this discussion that actually deal with the people and within/around the municipality in question.

And of course, there's a limit. I'll reiterate one more time. Yes, I would like the Coyotes to stay so I have hockey to watch, but, again I'll reiterate one more time, ONLY if it is legal, reasonable, or responsible. It is clearly none of those things anymore.

It'll suck not having a live NHL option and I'll feel for the real Coyotes fans losing their team, but it's something that needs to happen for the good of Gledale (however much good that actually is anymore) and ultimately for the good of the NHL.

I disagree.

Obviously.

[TheOldRoman]

Personally, I'm particularly worried about how the Cubs will try to "creatively and dynamically" "partner" with the city to renovate their private property. And they'll say the same things, that it's a good investment because of tourism and surrounding businesses and whatever else, but the city doesn't have the money, and the Tribune seemed to take care of its property just fine with their own money. Fortunately, the Ricketts clan is such a bunch of tone-deaf square-state gomers that they can't present a plan to the city without leaving the flash drive with the PowerPoint on it at home. I'd hate to see Chicago raise its sales taxes even more just to build that stupid goddamn "triangle building" the Cubs have wanted for like ten years.

Lest ye forget the falling concrete? Wrigley was in bad, bad shape from years of neglect before the Tribune purchased the team, but it's in such poor shape now that it needs to be fully rebuilt section by section. I mean, sure, the Trib paid to build new bleachers to increase the capacity ($), but their answer to "We are worried people may be killed by concrete falling on their heads" was "Meh. Put up a net". I'm not saying the city should pay to renovate Wrigley, just that the Tribune did not do a commendable upkeep job.

[IceCap]

The thing is, we've past the point where opposing views should be given equal time.

Well of course. Why start now?

Huh.

Look, I've been following this story since the Coyotes' financial troubles first came out and Jim Balsillie was trying to move them to Hamilton.

The notion that the pro-keep the team in Arizona side has never been given its fair hearing on these forums is false.

Heck, a few posters who were on the "lets make it work on Glendale" side of things back then have switched sides now, and most of those that haven't have since quietly dropped out of the regular conversation.

Why is that? Well because as time went on it became clear to pretty much everyone that the lengths Glendale was willing to go to were unreasonable, to sat the least, and that the Coyotes simply worth keeping around if it meant financially destroying a city.

This discussion's covered more then just this thread, and has been going on at the CCSLC since the story broke more then three years ago. You don't see any pro-Coyotes posts here because most of the pro-Coyotes posters either decided that the team wasn't worth keeping around at the expense of a city or simply stopped posting because they realized that with each new decision coming from Glendale City Hall their position became less and less defensible.

Still, even as far as your admittedly selfish reasons go there has to be a limit, right? Like those Coyotes fans who you claim shouldn't be vilified, you're willing to put up with a team who's existence is literally destroying a town and the livelihoods of those who live in it just so you can have affordable NHL hockey. You're not from Glendale. You don't have to pay the price for their idiocy, yet you're ok with it because "hey, hockey!" You're not even native to Arizona either. Will you stay in the Phoenix metro area after university? If not it kind of makes it worse.

I understand that you admit that your reasoning for wanting the team to stay is selfish. What I'm saying is that we've finally hit the point where that selfishness really starts to get ugly when the we look at what Glendale is doing to itself for the sake of this team.

I've never said that I was okay with it. My most recent argument was just to show what some of those actually in Arizona feel in response to "How do the people actually allow this?" I was providing personal experience as one of the few in this discussion that actually deal with the people and within/around the municipality in question.

And of course, there's a limit. I'll reiterate one more time. Yes, I would like the Coyotes to stay so I have hockey to watch, but, again I'll reiterate one more time, ONLY if it is legal, reasonable, or responsible. It is clearly none of those things anymore.

Clearly. So maybe it's time to take off the "Coyotes Apologist" hat.

It'll suck not having a live NHL option and I'll feel for the real Coyotes fans losing their team, but it's something that needs to happen for the good of Gledale (however much good that actually is anymore) and ultimately for the good of the NHL.

I live within driving distance of a NHL team that doesn't know up from down, and if I'm lucky I'll be able to score nosebleeds for $150 (on top of paying for parking in downtown Toronto). The Coyotes are a playoff calibre team which had promotions where you got a ticket, a hotdog, beer, and snuggie for under $20 and they still didn't fill the building. I'm not all that broken up by the "plight" of the "real" Coyotes fans. Either the don't exist in large enough numbers or they simply decided not to show up. Either way I'm not terribly concerned.

I disagree.

Obviously.

Yes.

Though strangely I think we're in agreement when it comes to the larger picture. The Coyotes aren't worth keeping around at the expense of a city, so it's time to do the right thing for everyone and move them.

I'm just bewildered by the extent "hey sports!" goes towards blinding people (not you necessarily, I'm speaking of those "you don't live here why do you care?" Coyotes fans) when said sports are a determent, not a boon, to the community.

[IceCap]

It would be reasonable to craft an argument that the NHL has used the city of Glendale, that Gary Bettman has allowed the city to be used to fund the league, and that the NHL does not partner well with municipalities. It's more of a reasonable argument that keeping the Coyotes in Glendale without an owner is financially motivated than the argument that it feeds his ego.

The problem with that is that the league still takes a bath on operating the Coyotes, even with the $25 million a year from Glendale. The league's certainly taking advantage of a very stupid city, but at the end of the day they don't gain anything economically from it. It's hard to say that a man in charge of a multi-million dollar league would base decisions like this simply to appease his ego, but it's (sadly) the one the best explains the league's actions.

I think in the long run, while the Coyotes provide the most hope for people in Seattle or Quebec to get the NHL to their cities, the city of Glendale's monumental idiocy will offset that hope.

Only temporarily. Goldwater may this thing killed, in which case the question of public funds for all future potential Coyotes owners will be off the table and the league has to look to buyers who want to relocate.

That or the wheels finally come spinning off once Glendale literally has no money to give to the league/team and City Hall is now a combination Taco Bell/KFC. At that point the NHL will give the "well we tried" speech and move them anyway.

[Still MIGHTY]

This discussion's covered more then just this thread, and has been going on at the CCSLC since the story broke more then three years ago. You don't see any pro-Coyotes posts here because most of the pro-Coyotes posters either decided that the team wasn't worth keeping around at the expense of a city or simply stopped posting because they realized that with each new decision coming from Glendale City Hall their position became less and less defensible.

Trust me, I know all that. I've been around for the numerous forms this thread and discussion has been guised as.

And sure, THAT'S why the only reason the pro-Coyotes posters stopped posting in this thread. It has nothing to do with how any pro-Coyotes post was swarmed upon with all the vile the other side could find. It has without question gotten exponentially harder to argue as time has gone by, but there's never been any use in trying to argue it before the horde arrived.

Whatever. This just HAS to be the last go around with this. If there is a season next year, it has to be the last season of this nonsense. Either it all gets stricken down and the Coyotes are shipped to Quebec at the end of the next year or the deal goes through, all of Glendale is sold off piece by piece, and Jobing.com Arena and the Coyotes are the obly things left standing. (Until they run out of money again, and then we might just be sitting here again.)

[Brian in Boston]

You'll find no shortage of municipal leaders who can be blinded by the "prestige" of pro sports.

Though, to be perfectly fair, the City of Glendale's dealings with the National Hockey League didn't set that trend in motion. The Glendale-Phoenix Coyotes situation is simply the latest and - to date - most egregious example of a municipality selling its fiduciary "soul" to the pro sports "devil".

As much as I hate to say it, I wholeheartedly believe it is not outside the realm of possibility that we will someday see a financial relationship between a local government and a pro sports team that makes the Coyotes' saga in Glendale seem quaint by comparison.